Curse

shoogi · Nov 18, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenixx

at least they should put DP back in halls... its just stupid that people can overextend wherever the hell they want and not be afraid to die

QFT, No DP was a very bad idea, not only in hoh but in any map. I personally fail to understand why this was change was implemented in the first place. Maybe someone (hopefully a dev?) could enlighten me.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Nov 20, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

*Warning, long informative post*
These are the changes I would like to see implemented. They are in no particular order, it's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

1) Bring back alter holding. Alter holding was working, the current objectives are not. HA is a gankfest atm, the way the objectives are set up is just stupid. 3-way relic runs is atrocious. Whenever I'm playing a 3-way relic run, you try to cap last, and not to piss any team off so they snare the other team and not you. That's horribly worded, but it's the truth. I don't understand why it's cap last instead of cap first, or why a team isn't kicked out if they are down by 5 at any point. It just promotes ganking, whether intentional or not.
King of the Hill is also a poorly implemented system. There is no dp, and you rez every minute. It is also not a "cap last" system, instead it's an accumulation of points. With no dp and a rez every minute, teams are running dual deathpact and are intentionally spending energy and killing themselves before the minute mark. If a team is down by too much to win, but dislike the other team, they have nothing to lose by all out ganking.
Finally, there's this alliance battle bullshit that doesn't do anything posative. The winner is pretty much determined by whoever doesn't get ganked. I'm not even going to go into detail with this one, it's just outright pathetic.

2) Remove skips. Old school altar holding would not of been a problem if skips were not so easily achieved. The map rotation should be this: 1 death match, 1 relic run (I'll explain further down why so soon), 1 alter holding, 1 death match, 1 relic run, 1 3-way alter holding. The alliance battle bullshit has got to go, it's boring, it's repetitive, and the outcome of the match is determined within the first minute. By having the relic run so soon, low level teams wouldn't be able to run gimmick style builds to farm the first 2 deathmatches. By having no skips, a team would have to devise a build that can win a deathmatch, relic run, and alter holding, each at least twice. If a team can do that, and still hold halls for hours, congrats to them. They are either very lucky or have a strong build and good players, in which they deserve to hold anyway.

3) Add a 25 minute timer to all deathmatches. A long time ago when factions was first released, when 2 thump 2 para 2 monk type builds were common, and even before then in spirit spam vs spirit spam matches, the match would go on for 45 minutes+ until 1 team resigned or they /rolled. If there is a 25 minute timer, either a team would have to win a /roll twice, or they would be sent back to HA id2. It would reduce the amount of teams running a pure holding build.

4) I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again, remove the alliance battle f*ckfest. No one likes it, it promotes gimmick builds like spiritway and aoe builds.

5) Assuming altar holding is brought back, if a team's ghost is killed after 2 and someone has already capped, they should be killed and sent back to HA, preventing any type of last minute gank. This + the revert to altar holding would prevent ganking.

Well that was long, for those that have actually read it and not skipped over, please comment on what I have said.

Phoenixx · Nov 20, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

old school altar holding was bad... fun, i loved it, but it was bad... people used to do jack all until last minute, then spike ghost, cap and win... if they do bring it back, people will just run bloodspike and nobody will be able to hold.

in my opinion, 6v6 is best for HA... i did enjoy it most back then... it was so easy to form a team in 5 min and go in, and we never had to sit in zaishen waiting for 10 min either... because there was more groups, even though half of them had heroes in them (and no it wasnt olias and master of whispers, it was decent builds but with heroes instead of humans)

ganking (when a team sacrificies their chance to win in order to screw someone else over) is the problem with people, not with the game, nothing will ever stop 2 teams attacking 1... however it is less of a problem with central altar (be it old holding or king of the hill), as teams need to bring enough defence to withstand the bashing from 2 teams anyway. if people couldnt bodyblock ghostly heroes (and i really do not understand how a ghost can be blocked by fleshy creatures) then ganking would be even less of a problem.

infymys · Nov 20, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Ganks will always happen. And the team that gets ganked will remember who ganked them and then return the favor. It will be a never ending cycle.

As for changes...skips need to be addressed. You see a team win Halls and you just beat them 3 maps ago because your team didn't get a skip.

Fetid River needs to go. We already have Burial Mounds and Dark Chambers (Golden Gates) with the priest. Sacred Temples needs to come back. That map needed coordination and good teamwork. And what's the point of Antechamber? 99% of the time it gets skipped. I've seen it maybe 3 or 4 times since its induction. Broken Tower coming back as a King of the Hill match would be nice to compliment Courtyard. The rotation in Halls itself is a good idea but relic runs need to be addressed because of the win condition. Whoever caps the most FIRST should win.

shoogi · Nov 20, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior

a long informative post.

1. altar holding had its problems (bunker defensive crap) but it was sure much better than the way hoh is now. reverting hoh to altar will also bring back a lot of players to tombs, which is desired (i hope).

2. skips are a neccessity. Without skips, groups will be waiting tons of time in the vault and holding groups will have to wait a considerable amount of time between matches. The map order, however, is interesting.

3. lol... look at what u wrote- "back at the time when factions was released ppl were running ... 2 para". guess u meant NF.
and to the subject- you really wanna see matches decided by /roll? better to do it the RA way (team with higher morale wins, same morale = no winning team). this is interesting... im still not sure it might work because normal builds that arent holding gimmicks will get screwed because they fight some holding bunker build that never dies and the good build has to restart.

4. /signed. and BRING BACK SACRED TEMPLES. that was the best map and it got kicked out. boo.

5. /signed. same thing should be implemented in the current hoh if it stays, groups that are trailing by a considerable margin are wiped.

Kyp Jade · Nov 20, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

sacred temples ftw!!! bring that back

destroy all cap pt maps or change it.

relic run in halls would actually be fine if
cap first = win
auto win at ## relics capped

and mighty is a genius when he says a team auto lose when down by 5 relics, good idea

Deaths · Nov 20, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I didnt read everything, so if i double post anything sry.

The Map rotation in HoH is necressary. I know the times of the old high defense builds who were just waiting for Hall jumps and then holding Hall for hours. Ok now even without wanting a halljump ppl will get easyly a jump cause of lack of players. With the old KotH Map the new meta would be just a holding build.

Nothing will encourage old players to come back to HA. Its fun sometimes to join HA and play one or two rounds. In HA their is not much Tactics envolved. The maps and Map constructions are just not made for it.
GvGs have more room for tactical movements. Even when a team is loosing with tactical movements a team can still win.
Most of the old players got their ranks they wanted. Their are not interested in fame anymore. Even if some ppl say the good players were interested in high pvp in HA. Thats not entirely true. Most of them wanted their fame too. And their rank. After they got their rank why would they come back?
Oh the other point is the flashing of the Name when i won the Hall. It was an entire other feeling when u lead a team into the win and ur name flashes over the servers. When ppl where pming u for ur win with gratulations or can i join ur team or guild. It was an entire other feeling when u lost HA and moved to id. saying something like, WTS sigil, or lf a ... member. The observer just shows now every teammember and its not encouraging much anyone to lead a team into the win. Well it was disapointing, when i won the halls and where not nr1 in a team whos name flashed over the servers. Becasue its a team who wins hall not just Nr.1. Nvm.
The Observer is a good thing, so new players can see what build works and what build doesnt work so well. But it changed alot of things too. It was so fun to see a Team or guild that won halls xx times. We were just encouraged to see which team with what kind of build was holding the halls. So i just called my guild or team for HA and were running for the Halls. Winning just one match after another and facing the winning team at Halls. To see what they were playing. Now i just look at observer and no it.
Well their are several other points why its more important to encourage new players for HA and win HoH, then for old players.

The map rotation of HoH is OK, but right now the real problem are the Map construction of HoH. HoH is a Map made for old style KotH. It was not made for the new play styles. Even with the changes in the map (wider stairs) didnt made it comfortable. A-Net made a big mistake in this part.

We are just diskussing about HoH here. But the way to HoH is important too. The old maps of HA had 3 holding maps and 3 maps with more than just 2 teams. It was necrassary that a team would bring high defense builds so they would survive on the way to the halls.

If we suggest that a team gets a full run right now. A spirit way Team or droknarway Team has all the necssary skills to survive all thouse maps. Why shouldnt ppl use thouse builds. They are working and they are working good without to be overpowered. Ppl say gimmick builds. And im saying it again. I know many ppl who were running gimmick builds and got their high ranks in HA and are still good players. The only problem is that it comes to a stacknation. Everyone is running the same build. And for thouse days when their is no movement in the game a new skillbalance is needed. A-Net is providing us with thouse skillbalances, thats good. The bad part in the last ballances were that some skills got "nerfed" without an equivalant replacement. This will just result that out of more then "1000" skills in GW ppl use just "100" skills in PvP because they are balanced and worth to use them. Nvm their will never be a real balance in a game.

To come back to the topic.

1) Dont think like how will we bring back the old players. They wont come back. Until we get an HA thats entirly new for each old hag. So think more about whats good for new players. (But dont bring back the 6vs6. 6vs6 is just another TA and not an HA)

2) If HoH will have a the rotation in victory conditions. The their should be changes in the maps too who are made for thouse victory conditions.

3) The victory condtions should for relict run change like above mentioned.

4) Dont bring back the old Koth. It will just result in Holding builds, because of the jumps.

Lorekeeper · Nov 20, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

i must say the thread is getting better with all the nice posts people are posting... dont care whether i agree with you all or not but good job on contributing in that manner.

points i agree with so far

in relation to HoH

1) HoH map rotation would make more sense with maps designed for the victory conditions... capture points in the existing HoH map is like a 3 year old trying to fit a square shape into a round hole. Most complaints about the rotation stem from implementation failures rather than concept failures. Question is... do they have time to do it properly? Do they care?

2) Relic run needs to be first cap to win... ''lagging behind by 5 relics = lose'' is not a good idea. If im in a team that people see as a threat... im pretty sure they will just come gank my relic runners and snare me out of the game. And i am pretty certain that is what will happen... i would sure

3) Im in 2 minds about skipping... they are both necessary and at the same time bad. They are necessary because its not always possible to find opponents... they are bad because some stupid builds get to skip maps that are designed to weed them out. Solution? Make sure noone can exploit skipping... thats one reason why they added HoH rotating maps.

4) HA replayability - i understand what Deaths said about people not playing HA after gaining a certain rank regardless of whether HA was fun or not... some people play HA simply to farm the titles, and they dont care about how they get it. I guess very little can be done about that... but what i have always thought they should have added to HA was a sort of ladder system or some sort of recognition for good HA guilds... like in GvG... being a successful GvG guild not only got you high champion rank, which was mainly a secondary focus for GvGers, it got you high rank on the ladder and nice cape trims if you did well in the tournies. This added a huge incentive system to GvG, understandably so since GvG was meant to be the highest form of GW PvP. But ive always thought that HA guilds would benefit from a similiar type of system...

GvG has endless replayability since earning a silver or gold cape is not exactly something any guild can achieve overnight. HA does tend to get a little repetitive once youve spammed your tiger a few million times... or once youve got sick of getting all those flames of balthazar from that chest in HoH hahaha.

*food for thought*

Kyp Jade · Nov 21, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I'm still spamming my tiger, and not tired of it, but I do agree that replayability sucks, I only play for kicks now. It's not even about the fame anymore for me its about playing some build I thought up, or exploiting some mechanic in HA you dont see much off just for the hell of it. (consume corpse on a relic runner comes to mind)

Deaths · Nov 21, 2007, 01:18 AM // 01:18

@lorekeeper

4) U are misunderstanding something. It was not just the rank that encouraed ppl to play HA. Rank is as well an important part in HA.

Their are some minor changes made in GW that made HA for the succes of a PvP guild unimportant.

The flash of ur Name in all servers made a player or a guild famouse. It was the only option to show the entire GW community the Power of the Guild. Ppl would say their was the GvG Ladder. But at thouse times the GvG Ladder was not an ingame source. U had to know the weblink to the ladder and watch which team, was leading the ladder.
Right now the observer is a source, to watch GvGs. U can see the guildrank the players and everything else u want over the observer. Even the minor change that in a PvP match the Guildname and the Guildrank showing before the fight made big changes.

In the good old days their was winning the favor for the server. This looks unimportant for many ppl, but it is indeed very important. To win the favor for Europe or America made thouse guilds famouse in the PvE part of the game.
Ít was funny to stay in the Temple of Ages and ppl said hey Deaths win the Favor for us.
Because theire were waiting hords of PvE players to farm UW or FOW. Then the other Elite missions come and it was less important to win the favor. Finally the favor system entirly changed. Good for PvE players, this is out of question, but winning HoH was less important now.

In replacement for this system the Xunlai Tournament House came. Most PvE players are watching the progress of GvGs so they can now gamble in the Xunlai Tournament House.

In the old days the only titel ppl had was the Hero titel track. U could show of with ur E-mote. Now everyone can show of with any kind of titel.

In the old days their were maps with matches 6 teams vs 6 teams. It was unique. Their was alot of ganking. But it was unique. Now nearly all maps are 1 team vs 1 team. Dont misunderstand me now but i can play 1 Team vs 1 Team in GvG or TA. If we watch the maps of HA most of thouse are from HA converted to other PvP ( Even into PvE Tombs. Come on this really sucks).maps or some are converted from other maps to HA.

The most important question is, Whats left in HA?

Beside the PvP envoirment u can get in other PvP-parts of GW,

the E-motes.

The E-mote is the only unique archievment of HA. Not the Fame or the Rank u get, its just the E-mote thats left to be unique in HA.

So getting back to the toppic why old players wont come back to HA. Most of them got their desired E-motes. And i would be really pissed if their would be some flashy E-motes for other archievemnts. It would destroy HA entirly.

I dont think that A-Net made thouse changes to destroy HA. But thouse minor changes over time made HA for most players unimportant and many ppl lost the desire to play HA.

Edit: Ppl would say their is still the chest where the Mini Hero or anything else can drop. But if i want one i can buy that item. So its not really a unique archivemnet. ANd if i want money i can still sell golden flames of Balthasar. PPl would be surprised, when they would know, how many elite PvP-players are playing PvE as well. And they are playing PvE succsesfull.

@6am sry posted this edit before i could read ur post.

6am3 Fana71c · Nov 21, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deaths

The most important question is, Whats left in HA?

Beside the PvP envoirment u can get in other PvP-parts of GW,

the E-motes.

And chest farm, lol.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Nov 21, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

1. altar holding had its problems (bunker defensive crap) but it was sure much better than the way hoh is now. reverting hoh to altar will also bring back a lot of players to tombs, which is desired (i hope).

If a team gets to HoH, caps, and holds with the "bunker defensive crap' as you put it, it was always because they skipped a certain map. If no skips are created, teams won't be able to win relic runs and death matches and still be able to hold halls for hours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

2. skips are a neccessity. Without skips, groups will be waiting tons of time in the vault and holding groups will have to wait a considerable amount of time between matches. The map order, however, is interesting.

Hopefully if these changes are implemented more people will come back to halls. With more teams, a no-skip system could be a feasible idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

3. lol... look at what u wrote- "back at the time when factions was released ppl were running ... 2 para". guess u meant NF.
and to the subject- you really wanna see matches decided by /roll? better to do it the RA way (team with higher morale wins, same morale = no winning team). this is interesting... im still not sure it might work because normal builds that arent holding gimmicks will get screwed because they fight some holding bunker build that never dies and the good build has to restart.

Yea, I might nightfall. I did not mean that I wanted matches to be decided by /roll, but if you recall back in the release of nightfall, when two holding builds would play eachother, they would fight for 45 minutes +. Eventually someone will get bored and resign, or they would /roll. Morale could work, however, teams might resort to creating a build that can do 1 clean spike every minute or so, such as abusing arcane mimicry, and then run around the map avoiding death the remaining duration of the timer. The only way I see it working is if both teams lose at 25 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

4. /signed. and BRING BACK SACRED TEMPLES. that was the best map and it got kicked out. boo.

Yes it was.

shoogi · Nov 21, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Teh Mighty Warrior l

Yea, I might nightfall. I did not mean that I wanted matches to be decided by /roll, but if you recall back in the release of nightfall, when two holding builds would play eachother, they would fight for 45 minutes +. Eventually someone will get bored and resign, or they would /roll. Morale could work, however, teams might resort to creating a build that can do 1 clean spike every minute or so, such as abusing arcane mimicry, and then run around the map avoiding death the remaining duration of the timer. The only way I see it working is if both teams lose at 25 minutes.

a thought just crossed my mind.. having the holding gimmicks fight each other for decades, so other players running good builds dont have to fight them, isn't so bad after all

Solo_uw_ftw · Nov 24, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Back to oldschool capping altar..

And 6v6 was way better than 8v8... less noob spikes

thee savage · Nov 26, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo_uw_ftw

Back to oldschool capping altar..

And 6v6 was way better than 8v8... less noob spikes

LMAO are u serious? 6v6 was nothing but heroway and highly defensive builds which matches took 20+ minutes. Just go back to old school alter and put dp back in halls.

Deaths · Nov 26, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Well everything what was unique in HA was copied to other parts of GW. So why not copy from other parts of GW back into HA. :P

Their was the Talk about a Ladder system in HA. The problem in this lies that their are alot of Teams out their who are not Guild Teams. To make out a good system with points and evrything else wouldnt make any sense.

Holding Halls is still an important task for a Team. At least just for the Fame u can gain.

In the older days Holding Halls meant Taking the Favor. So we need something similar to it that would work out.

If we watch the ATS the First GvG Teams recieve Gold, Silver and Bronze Capes.

Yeah and HA Guilds have Capes to

So the main idea is for Holding halls for an amount of times a Guild recives maybe a blue or black cape for an ammount of times.

Lets say for holding 4 times they get a bronze cape, for holding 10 times a silver and for holding 20 times a gold (plz work the colores for ur self out).

For each Time they hold the halls that guild gets the right to keep his cape for lets say 1hour or 1 day. (This is should be like the new favor system. For each max titel the favor gets longer)

Ok to make it understandable.

1. Holdings halls gets a guild a cape like thouse in GvG.
2. The ammount of holds will change the cape to a better one.
3. The ammount of holds will keep the cape for longer time.

Edit: This would encourage Guilds to pracipitate in HA. The entire problem of HA is that u can PUG. Unlike in GvG. With this system u can still pug and farm fame and win halls. But it would encourage ppl to join a Guild and to make HA more organized. AT least we could have a new reason to come back to HA.

Edit 2: Their should be a world wide message like xxx Guild hold for xxx times and recived the honor to carry the cape of the Heros or something like that.
This would make sense. I still dont understand ppl paying money to join a guild with a gold or silver cape. But really ppl would maybe pay attention to HA guilds becasue they have a cape like in GvGs.

Edit3: Maybe the idea with the cape comes to "no the trims are just reserved for GvGs" thingy. Work out something else. Like the members shine in the honor of the heros. Or their should be a monument of Heors in the Balthasar Temple where u can see which team holds for how many times. (the balthasar Temple is at least not just reserved for GvG players. Yeah and something like an bet can be made in the Xunlai House like how many times is a guild holding halls for today. But it should be something that everyplayer can recognize in everyarea of the game like the trims of GvG.

If u guys agree work the details out.
Pro and contras are welcome.

Kyp Jade · Nov 26, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

The cape thing is a good idea, prob wont bring to many people back to HA, but will see some interesting builds run to try to hold 20 times lol. A HUGE con I see is that capes are portrayed as blue, red, yellow, and have fun finding color matches to that

Deaths · Nov 26, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

The cape thing is a good idea, prob wont bring to many people back to HA, but will see some interesting builds run to try to hold 20 times lol. A HUGE con I see is that capes are portrayed as blue, red, yellow, and have fun finding color matches to that

I dont agree with this entirly.

1. A cape would encourage old players to come back to recieve the cape. If they alrdy reached their r12, they have still a reason to play HA.

2. New players would be encouraged to join HA to recieve the cape. And at the same time to farm fame. This is not like GvG. In GvG to farm champ points u have to get 1200 rating. It is a hard task to win so many rating and at the same time to win against a team with such a rating. And its not like Farming Titels in PvE, where u dont recive a trim.

3. In the older days a HA Guild didnt have just one squad. It had 2 or 3 squad teams. Their were a lot of Guilds, who were training newbs in HA. So they had later players with whom they could win halls. To recieve a cape for a long time their should be a nead of more then one squad. If we watch the player qualty and quantyty of HA this would encourage good players to teach new and old players how HA can be played.
The bad part is that their would be Elite-Guilds, with more then 4 or 5 squads and even more which would hold HA for hours.

Deaths · Nov 26, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

A new idea occured.

Their is still the issue of the Balthasar Faction. What to do with it when u unlocked everything. Their was alot of ideas till now.

Their is an issue with the Kurzick Faction and Luxon faction. If u have an ammount of thouse faction u can cap a city and u have to maintain the amount of faction.

So why not spend ur balthasar faction into the guild and recieve for it a cape.
Well right now this isnot just linked to HA. But it would bring a new wind to PvP.
All the PvP sections were linked together. And it would make sense to farm balthasar faction in HA even with pugs.
And yes a GvG only guild would never be able to maintain that amount of balthasar faction. Becasue they can do just 1 GvG at a time.

Vulkanyaz · Nov 26, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

If anything buying flames with balth points would be useful to sell them (thought value would go down) or give them to a team member who needs to unlock a skill. Or trade balth faction for a pvp-only black dye for armour or something.

But this isn't the thread for that