Curse

skarkees · Nov 06, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Hmmm,

this is a difficult tread imo. Im thinking on both sides mostly.

A. I like te capture maps

B. I dont like capture points in Halls because when you face 2 Teams wich know each other you will get raped. But on the other hand maybe we just need to get over that

.

C. A-net really needs to do something about KoTH in Halls as is is right now. When a balanced team is holding the altar and is facing 2 teams with 2 SH eles and 1 snare (thats 4 sh and 2 snares) no 2 monk backline can stand that pressure. Its really to lame. And you see capping the altar isnot that hard but holding it against those lame builds is hard. Its also not the people your fighting with but its more balanced against freakin 4 SH's + splinter weapon + dazed from thumpers.

D. Relic runs are fine with me. Still they are quit boring but its al on when to make that tactic move on the other team.

E. Bring back Sacred Temple???? I dunno. A lot and i really know A LOT of people will cry about it. I think its because of sacred was in round 3 so you mostly had a few noobs teamsand a few good teams in sacred. That was unfair.
maybe if you swap sacred for something like antechamber, cuz antechamber is a bit like forgotten shrine.

This is how I see it in a short story :P

Takida · Nov 06, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by skarkees

Hmmm,

this is a difficult tread imo. Im thinking on both sides mostly.

A. I like te capture maps

B. I dont like capture points in Halls because when you face 2 Teams wich know each other you will get raped. But on the other hand maybe we just need to get over that

.

C. A-net really needs to do something about KoTH in Halls as is is right now. When a balanced team is holding the altar and is facing 2 teams with 2 SH eles and 1 snare (thats 4 sh and 2 snares) no 2 monk backline can stand that pressure. Its really to lame. And you see capping the altar isnot that hard but holding it against those lame builds is hard. Its also not the people your fighting with but its more balanced against freakin 4 SH's + splinter weapon + dazed from thumpers.

D. Relic runs are fine with me. Still they are quit boring but its al on when to make that tactic move on the other team.

E. Bring back Sacred Temple???? I dunno. A lot and i really know A LOT of people will cry about it. I think its because of sacred was in round 3 so you mostly had a few noobs teamsand a few good teams in sacred. That was unfair.
maybe if you swap sacred for something like antechamber, cuz antechamber is a bit like forgotten shrine.

This is how I see it in a short story :P

A : i dont like capture points cause it just reduce the amount of builds being played. Although it's kinda needed on a map b4 halls ( forgotten,antechamber) , To reduce the amount of spike builds being played.

B : 3 Way capture Points is a bith because of: ALLWAYS GANK, And it removes the amount of "different builds" . Cause every1 is bringing Fire and Waters for it, Its just so strong on the tiny "capture points".

C : KotH is the only working mechanic in hoh atm, Even tho it could use a fix, As some1 else said that u get 1 point from 8-3, and then 2, from 3-1 , and from 1-0, u get 3 points.

D : Relic Runs is the worse mechanic in halls, This match is first 6 mins of just boringness, And then after that, 1 team get ganked, And its pretty much random, Some matches can be fun tho, But thats just if its a match between 3 good teams.

E : Yes agreed bring back Sacred Temples ( Maybe another thread ? lol )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imo, Bring back Altar Holding or keep KotH as the only mechanic in halls.
Alot more builds will be played, And alot more Funny/Interesting matches in halls.. It reduces the amount of Ganks, It can still be ganks but it will for sure be reduced.... And.. Maybe alot more ppl will come back?

Skillbalance Please?

Messner · Nov 06, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

The downfall of this game has been since inception and will only continue to be, Observer mode. Revert to previous or modify existing HoH mission objectives and remove observer mode. The problem is that the amount of skill required to play in HoH and be successful has been totally removed. Clueless players good at hitting lit up keys can far too effectively create enormous levels of pressure. The problem is a combination of human nature (laziness and lack of originality), inadequate skill balance (Hammer bash has 50% chance to fail strength<4 anyone?) and deemphasis on player skill necessary (auto-targeting, capture point objectives that 99% of the time end up being about the team who has the most fire eles on their team). The new objectives were created to favor build variety and force players into new skills. For a game that alleged player skill to be above all, Anet has sure done a good job ensuring the builds more often than not outweigh the player's skill levels.

Monk Gsb · Nov 06, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

all that i think should change is the 1st to cap gets the "star" thingy instead of last to cap. last to cap is so retarded its untrue, u dont win a game by scoreing the last point but still having the same score, and in most games it will award the prize to the team who got the score the fastest.

Messner · Nov 06, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

all that i think should change is the 1st to cap gets the "star" thingy instead of last to cap. last to cap is so retarded its untrue, u dont win a game by scoreing the last point but still having the same score, and in most games it will award the prize to the team who got the score the fastest.

Its an accumulation game, not golf. There are some very basic common sense tactics involved in relic running, the problem in your case is assuredly that they require thinking.

tyrant rex · Nov 07, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messner

Its an accumulation game, not golf. There are some very basic common sense tactics involved in relic running, the problem in your case is assuredly that they require thinking.

ryan is bad at the war of the guilds and im a pretty pony also taking out obs mode right now would be silly the damage has been done already anyway

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messner

Its an accumulation game, not golf. There are some very basic common sense tactics involved in relic running, the problem in your case is assuredly that they require thinking.

Yes, it's an accumulation game, so wouldn't it make sense that you'd win if you accumulated X number of points faster than some other team?

Giving the last person to tie the victory is the most moronic and counter-intuitive scoring system I've seen in anything ever.

Our Lady Of Sorrow · Nov 07, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

imo it should be holding.. but what type..
oldschool holding was so-so.. just hold it at the last second and you won, this also gave pressures and farms a chance to win.. which was fun to take them off.. but holding builds could be really imba..

new-age holding you can win a few mins onto the game, which is a time waste.. /dance? >.<"

are there any new ways to make a holding mode that is fair AND fun?
[movievoice]only time will tell [/movievoice]

Vulkanyaz · Nov 07, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

3-way annihlation anyone?

-AnGeL- · Nov 07, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

imo HA is no fun atm...
Im sure if GvG would give fame,noone would play HA . There is no ppl playing for fun ...all playing only for fame.

Our Lady Of Sorrow · Nov 07, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulkanyaz

3-way annihlation anyone?

could work under certain circumstances.. it only takes one potty-talker or hated person or hated build or bad player (or.. i think thats it :X) to get yourself 8v16..it will be just like old scarred earth with the lever.. one team will be running away to let the others fight.. and how will it work with the altar.. hoh would last like 30+ mins, unless there are certain rules/map effects..
halls could be a bit more of a challenge with a rotation of effects such as
-3degen
25%longer cast
33%longer attack
spirits have half effect <--thats not a hint for spiritway :P
constant muddy <-- or not? who knows :P
or even.. add DP on rotation!!! depends on what type of match..

Kyp Jade · Nov 07, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

3 way annihilation would work similar to kill count, and actually would be semi-difficult to pull a full gank on you since you have that hallway you can retreat into

I was good at killcount, but I played with 2 fire eles, so small wonder

streets101 · Nov 07, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

HOH definitely needs to keep rotating objectives. Different objectives than the ones now are fine, but there needs to be more than one to promote non-gimmicky builds.

If the old altar holding came back, you will see gimmicky, boring, hyper-defensive holding builds with no depth at all to them. I'd rather see more interesting balanced builds that are designed to take on multiple things.

to get such a hyper defensive build into halls, you still need to:
Win 1v1 Annihilation
Win Relic Runs
Win Capture Points (if they keep this)
Win Altar Capture (shouldn't be a problem)

This will still require you to be able to kill, and do other things in the build. Yes teams will make it with these builds and will win halls, but whose to blame? all the other players that just lost to them match after match guiding them to halls.

Once in halls, if this team can countlessly survive 16v8 match after match, then, think for a minute and maybe run something to kick them out?
if they run over defensive paras, take vocal
if they run SoMW take nr and enchant removals
if they run spiritway......kill spirits

any build will win, it just needs a considerable amount of thought put into it, and be run by the right players.

Kyp Jade · Nov 07, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

xobile, the problem with that, is they need to win 1v1 annihilation a few times, and then skip to halls, and the objectives in halls dont take to much to win aside from koth

streets101 · Nov 07, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

....if they skip, and when they do that means u will also skip. so if skips are going on run a counter thats all it takes.

Takida · Nov 07, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Try to think of a holding build that can hold ag 16 ppl ? In 8v8 b4 6v6, Holding builds were based on Interrupts mostly, So..what skill do we have now? Song? ding dong

Lorekeeper · Nov 07, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by streets101

to get such a hyper defensive build into halls, you still need to:
Win 1v1 Annihilation
Win Relic Runs
Win Capture Points (if they keep this)
Win Altar Capture (shouldn't be a problem)

This will still require you to be able to kill, and do other things in the build. Yes teams will make it with these builds and will win halls, but whose to blame? all the other players that just lost to them match after match guiding them to halls.

Once in halls, if this team can countlessly survive 16v8 match after match, then, think for a minute and maybe run something to kick them out?
if they run over defensive paras, take vocal
if they run SoMW take nr and enchant removals
if they run spiritway......kill spirits

any build will win, it just needs a considerable amount of thought put into it, and be run by the right players.

problem being... the HA population is made up of players who rather NOT play builds that take a considerable amount of thought. The second they see a lame holding build in HoH (and im sure they will once one of these builds gets a lucky skip) they will all be copying it and clogging up the meta once again with yet another set of boring buttonbashing lame gimmicks - no suprises there then.

Capture points and relic runs (bring back sacred temples) will be a struggle for static hyper defensive builds, but are there enough players in HA who will run more flexible builds to be able to punish this weakness? Its the same with spiritway... spiritway and heroway is easy to beat for a well coordinated good balanced team... yet even so it is so widespread and reaches HoH regularly. Saying something is easy to beat doesnt mean it wont become a dominant build, a better thing to say is, if something is easy to run and rewards even poor to mediocre standards of play, it will become dominant. Narrow map objectives only makes it easier to make builds like these.

i dont want to repeat myself, but arguments against holding builds do not mention the difficulty of knocking them off the altar so can people please stop posting things like - its easy to kill them 16vs8, bring counters etc etc

1) the argument about holding metas, assuming it happens, is that builds become overly defensive... requiring other teams to become overly offensive or pack stupid amounts of shutdown. Noone wants to fight the same build over and over again, which is what happens when HoH encourages only a narrow type of build.

2) ''Bring counters'' is almost never a good argument. Plenty of things got nerfed in the past regardless of the existence of counters or not. When discussing skill balance saying things like ''X can be countered by Y'' simply does not hold much strength. If someone is holding HoH with paraway its not so simple as to run a hex build with vocal... i mean, sure you will knock them off the altar but will you be able to design a hex build capable of holding out vs two teams? Holding team is running SOMW spike... bring NR... that means we need either a spirit spammer or a ranger secondary somewhere, which only supports the fear that holding builds will once again be popular (ignoring the fact that bringing NR isnt the only way to beat SOMW). No PvP meta should be forced to go down a particular route... that is why GvG is so much more ''balanced'' that HA, because the environment in GvG encourages balanced builds and does so without putting other builds at disadvantage, GvG builds pack less and less ''counter'' skills in favour of more general skills that perform well when used well. In HA an altar holding HoH would encourage strong holding builds and put other builds at disadvantage... no matter what map demands there are prior to HoH you will still have to design a build capable of either holding the altar vs two teams or packing enough interrupts to prevent those two teams from capping. Saying holding builds are beatable is a way of supporting a buildwars type environment which really isnt the direction we should go own...

3) i would much prefer an environment where all types of builds have equal chances of success... with success not totally dependant on build but on team skill and strategy. At least in theory, a multiple objective HoH would ensure that all types of builds have a good chance of winning... with holding builds being good at the altar holding or koth and balanced being good at capture points (assuming capture point maps are well implemented)... relic runs in HoH are equally playable by all builds considering the wide variety of speedboosts available now.

4) basically the argument against single objective HoH is that it is easier to design builds that cater towards winning that single objective (which means its easier to cater towards beating teams holding HoH too but that doesnt make it any better) and builds that do not cater towards it with such focus are automatically weaker at winning and holding HoH.

Takida · Nov 07, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

problem being... the HA population is made up of players who rather NOT play builds that take a considerable amount of thought. The second they see a lame holding build in HoH (and im sure they will once one of these builds gets a lucky skip) they will all be copying it and clogging up the meta once again with yet another set of boring buttonbashing lame gimmicks - no suprises there then.

Capture points and relic runs (bring back sacred temples) will be a struggle for static hyper defensive builds, but are there enough players in HA who will run more flexible builds to be able to punish this weakness? Its the same with spiritway... spiritway and heroway is easy to beat for a well coordinated good balanced team... yet even so it is so widespread and reaches HoH regularly. Saying something is easy to beat doesnt mean it wont become a dominant build, a better thing to say is, if something is easy to run and rewards even poor to mediocre standards of play, it will become dominant. Narrow map objectives only makes it easier to make builds like these.

i dont want to repeat myself, but arguments against holding builds do not mention the difficulty of knocking them off the altar so can people please stop posting things like - its easy to kill them 16vs8, bring counters etc etc

1) the argument about holding metas, assuming it happens, is that builds become overly defensive... requiring other teams to become overly offensive or pack stupid amounts of shutdown. Noone wants to fight the same build over and over again, which is what happens when HoH encourages only a narrow type of build.

2) ''Bring counters'' is almost never a good argument. Plenty of things got nerfed in the past regardless of the existence of counters or not. When discussing skill balance saying things like ''X can be countered by Y'' simply does not hold much strength. If someone is holding HoH with paraway its not so simple as to run a hex build with vocal... i mean, sure you will knock them off the altar but will you be able to design a hex build capable of holding out vs two teams? Holding team is running SOMW spike... bring NR... that means we need either a spirit spammer or a ranger secondary somewhere, which only supports the fear that holding builds will once again be popular (ignoring the fact that bringing NR isnt the only way to beat SOMW). No PvP meta should be forced to go down a particular route... that is why GvG is so much more ''balanced'' that HA, because the environment in GvG encourages balanced builds and does so without putting other builds at disadvantage, GvG builds pack less and less ''counter'' skills in favour of more general skills that perform well when used well. In HA an altar holding HoH would encourage strong holding builds and put other builds at disadvantage... no matter what map demands there are prior to HoH you will still have to design a build capable of either holding the altar vs two teams or packing enough interrupts to prevent those two teams from capping. Saying holding builds are beatable is a way of supporting a buildwars type environment which really isnt the direction we should go own...

3) i would much prefer an environment where all types of builds have equal chances of success... with success not totally dependant on build but on team skill and strategy. At least in theory, a multiple objective HoH would ensure that all types of builds have a good chance of winning... with holding builds being good at the altar holding or koth and balanced being good at capture points (assuming capture point maps are well implemented)... relic runs in HoH are equally playable by all builds considering the wide variety of speedboosts available now.

4) basically the argument against single objective HoH is that it is easier to design builds that cater towards winning that single objective (which means its easier to cater towards beating teams holding HoH too but that doesnt make it any better) and builds that do not cater towards it with such focus are automatically weaker at winning and holding HoH.

1st of all, I can promise that if old school altar comes back, Much much people will come back.. So i can make sure that there will be alot of builds.

2nd of all.
When you say "I Dont wanna face the same build over and over again"
Its excactly what will not happen if Altar comes back.
You wanna know why? Cause you dont have to bring freaking snares, You dont ahve to bring freaking AoE dmg, You can play Shutdown builds, Pressure w/e you like, Old school altar in 8v8 was so many different builds, In the current halls you need some kind of snare, aoe and interrupts/song so you dont have
much choise in making builds, Thats the reason why i want KotH or Old School Altar, And its allmost allways the "Best" team that win..
And please, HA have and i hope will allways be different then gvg,
HA was fun in its own way, If you like gvg then go gvg, If you like to play "Fun" Builds play HA, But now there is no "funny" builds that you can play, And hold with.. i dunno.. I just love ha the way it was...

Lorekeeper · Nov 07, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

1st of all, I can promise that if old school altar comes back, Much much people will come back.. So i can make sure that there will be alot of builds.

Yes im sure all those noob bloodspikers and rit spikers will come back and try to come up with yet another skillful holding build. None of the players worth playing with will come back. Just because you think more people will come back, it doesnt mean there will be more variety of builds, it could just mean we get more people playing the same builds... argument is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

2nd of all.
When you say "I Dont wanna face the same build over and over again"
Its excactly what will not happen if Altar comes back.
You wanna know why? Cause you dont have to bring freaking snares, You dont ahve to bring freaking AoE dmg, You can play Shutdown builds, Pressure w/e you like, Old school altar in 8v8 was so many different builds, In the current halls you need some kind of snare, aoe and interrupts/song so you dont have
much choise in making builds,

Snares are easy to fit into a build... aoe dmg is easy to fit into a build... You dont even NEED aoe to win HoH... but the fact that YOU believe it is such a high necessity just tells everyone that YOU cant win HoH without running lame gimmicky stuff like 2-3 SH eles. Pressure builds are possible in current HA... in fact the single most complained about build is a pressure build itself. Shutdown builds? They are still possible, people ran those fear me sins... several teams are running hex shutdown builds... the SoJ builds are pressure builds too... there are very few dedicated spike builds out there with huge amount of defense (mostly due to capture point maps - thank goodness for them), the most popular ''spike'' build out there being the dual dervish builds or legoway, but legoway also doubles up as a pressure build. You are making absolutely no good arguments to suggest that an HA meta with a single map HoH rotation would be more diverse than the one that currently exists NOR will you convince anyone with a good memory that the HA meta was rich with ''fun'' diversity in the past. The suggestion is simply laughable. The current HA meta is as good as HA has ever been... with the exception of 1 build that all the gimmick players are so strongly clinging to with dear life (spiritway).

Although i will say that i miss the old old minion factorys and edge bombs... those were always fun to see. I kinda miss rit spike too, but in a very weird ''i have fun trying to beat imbalanced builds'' kind of way.

There really isnt much wrong with the HA meta right now apart from ONE build. Spiritway. Get rid of that and the doors will be open for gimmick players to play other builds... perhaps searing flames and fire eles will need to be toned down to prevent these players just jumping on the AoE bandwagon but in all honesty the total number of potential buttonmashing builds is at an all time low... so it wont too many more skill balances to get rid of them entirely.

But let me get this straight...

Your argument to prove the richer diversity of a single objective HoH rests on the fact that you no longer will have to bring snares or AoE dmg?

brilliant argument... you sure do understand balanced builds pretty well. In fact you understand them so well you think moving away from a multiple objective HoH rotation to holding objective HoH will promote balanced builds...

what about forcing everyone to defend an altar? Dont you think that will force them to bring things they dont really take right now? Do you think spellbreaker monks will come back? 3 monk backlines? Will we need song of concentration and interrupts? How many interrupts will we need? Will we need to blind interrupters? Gale interrupters? Will we need aura stability or ward stability for our ghost AND interrupters? Wow talk about build limitations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Thats the reason why i want KotH or Old School Altar, And its allmost allways the "Best" team that win..
If you like to play "Fun" Builds play HA, But now there is no "funny" builds that you can play, And hold with.. i dunno.. I just love ha the way it was...

let me tell you what this sounds like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

the reason why i want KotH or Old School Altar, its almost always the boring "i have the most healers" or ''i have the most interrupts'' teams that win...
If you like to play "lame" Builds that require little skill play HA, But now there is no ''lame'' super defensive spike builds (bloodspike/ritspike/icy veins spike) that you can play, And hold with.. i dunno.. I just love ha the way it was...

yes we will miss bloodspikes and cg ranger migraine builds so dearly please Anet bring those back.

Horace The Great · Nov 08, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Takida en Lorekeeper shame on you guys!

You guys just have an other opinion, you guys can blabla how much you like but you wont get the other guy on your opinion. Not all people are all the same, get over it that some people think differently than yourself.
(Sorry, for bad english)

I love you both and now stop screaming at eachother.