Curse

streets101 · Nov 03, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Old school altar cap is definitely the way to go.

1) instead of having teams gank you when u just died at 7 pts, teams will try to win instead seeing as though they still have a chance.
2) this will allow teams to prepare for one objective from a build, this way we will see more variety in builds.
3) do not complain about holding builds, with 16 ppl against 8, you should be able to knock anyone out, with the right build of course.

therangereminem · Nov 03, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

i dont think you should be able to hold halls

what i think is after you win halls you get sent back to the underworld and start over but not have the fame thing restart

so that hallz holders willbe proven how good thy are even if things change

if would make thinsg more fun i hate winning hallz then you go in hallz again and win its boring and its not likei ever gotten anythign good out of it!!!

just my add

so you would do the following win z elite win underwolrd you would get 1 point then you go n and win courtyard or something and it would be your 4th win then win hallz or 5 then get sent back to underworld win it again and be 6 and your fame counter would still go up

tyrant rex · Nov 03, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

the new alter mode is great imo unlike the old version what you do in the first 6 mins actually matters

cap pts are a failure because people are brainless and dont play to win
relic runs should just be removed

Lorekeeper · Nov 03, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by streets101

Old school altar cap is definitely the way to go.

1) instead of having teams gank you when u just died at 7 pts, teams will try to win instead seeing as though they still have a chance.
2) this will allow teams to prepare for one objective from a build, this way we will see more variety in builds.
3) do not complain about holding builds, with 16 ppl against 8, you should be able to knock anyone out, with the right build of course.

i think inter guild e-drama resulting in ganks regardless of winning will always be a part of HA, as long as HoH remains a multi team format this will always happen.

Besides, sometimes the people ganking just havent got a clue what they are doing anyway and all they get fixated on is killing the blue team because they are ''holding'' its an unfortunate psychological side effect that plagues HA players, they cant see past simple button mashing mechanics blue team is holding therefore they must die...

map variety encourages build variety because it makes balanced builds in theory more effective due to their ability to bring more utility (and balanced builds can take a wide variety of natures). Reducing map variety will only reduce the demands on builds, allowing them to focus on only a few tasks leading to highly specialised builds designed to hold an altar.

Increased map variety helps to moderate ultra specialised builds (imagine prenerf rit spike without the need for snares/speedboosts... they might have had 2 more rit/mes or rit/mo instead of the rit/ele and rit/d) by forcing them to take some necessary utility like speed boosts and snares and interrupts.

the real complaint about altar holding is not the holding builds themselves its the meta that follows the altar holding meta. People running holding builds, highly defensive builds, will be incredibly difficult to beat 1vs1 by the vast majority of average teams who will just fail at breaking through their layers of defenses... this will lead the average teams to do either one of two things... run overly defensive builds themselves (probably spike orientated builds) because they jump on the collective bandwagon (like HA players do - if you cant beat them join them mentality) OR run overly offensive builds with multiple fire eles, cg rangers and dervishes or any other combination of high pressure builds built to overwhelm even the strongest of defensive walls.

If they choose the former... the meta will be full of overly defensive builds... clogging up the rotation with hour long battles and boring the hell out of the good teams because match after match they have to face the same boring defensive builds over and over again. HoH will be yawnfests, holding build after holding build with the odd good balanced team...

if they choose the latter, they will find that even if they reach HoH, they wont stand a chance of holding the altar with such overly offensive builds, because they will probably carry very little defense. Sure they can farm fame on the way to HoH but being HA players the real money is in holding... otherwise they wouldnt be playing HA.

this will lead them to finally choose to run the defensive builds.

im not talking about the builds the good teams will run... theres no point, there simply arent enough of them left to bother talking about, their influence on HA meta is insignificant.

i would only ever advocate altar holding if anyone could guarantee me that the HA meta will not be dominated by the average HA scrubs running overly defensive builds. But that guarantee can only be given if a thorough skill balance is done and im simply not gimmick minded enough to come up with a specialised holding build.

so basically the question is this... what overly defensive build IF any... could the average HA scrub run in an altar holding orientated HoH?

You Will Never No · Nov 03, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

There isn't no way to "fully" get rid of ganking but old school altar capping would surely reduce it compared to now.

Killed u man · Nov 04, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Ok, at first, I would like to say: Capture Points AND Relic Runs will NEVER be fair with 3 teams. If a team wants to gank you, they will... Wether you have 1,000,000 Shrines, or 4, the ganking team will go for YOUR TEAM... (Same for Relic Run)

Lorekeeper, you say we don't give any reason why current HoH doesn't promote balanced? Well, you don't give any decent reason why Old-School Holding was worse... "HYPER DEFENSIVE BUILDZZ OMFGZORSS" is NOT a serious reason... There is enough counters in a 2v1 scenario, WITH 24 PLAYERS ON THE MAP.

By adding MORE conditions, you narrow the builds down... Just look in observe now, and observe a game on Youtube or something from Old-school. Now it's always the same sh!t: "WHO CAN SPAM THE MOST AOE IN THE FEWEST AMOUNT OF TIME!!!!!"

If U add extra Capture points, the same problem still exist, whoever has the most fire, can cap most points... (Don't even start with shutdown, sure, we could all run dual Migraine, but that's not really balanced, is it? o.0)
Also, with the additions of multiple points, you will know the winner earlier in the game (Now, at +-30secs-1min, you know who won the game), thus promoting even MORE ganking... Other than that, If there is more than 5-6 capture points, there is always (still) going to be one team that gets to be free to cap bases, whilst other fight over some shrine... And once again, it will be the "dumbest" team that will decide who wins. (Whoever they screw over in the end, withouth even knowing so often, loses)

Relic Run: No matter what, this can NEVER be fair, because in the end, if you're too far ahead, they will fully shut you down on running. If you can also fully shut them down, whilst 1v2, that's not really balanced, is it? Same thing, Relic Run PROMOTES ganking, because you can just run into some teams base, and block acces to relic. (Even if U manage to pick this up, you will most likely die, 2v1)

Current Holding: Fair map, BARELY see a team going straight for the gank, it comes down to skill on YOUR TEAM, not the enemies (Like cap points). Good shutdown, good monks = WIN WIN WIN. BUT, problem here is, once again, promotes ganking ONCE you lost center. If blue has 7 points, there is 8 more to gain, and yellow caps. Red CANNOT take down yellow in 30 seconds. At this point, blue has 7 points, yellow 0, red 0, BUT, red can NOT win anymore.
Now, Red can do 2 things:
-Resign, thus ganking the blue team, since they helped yellow killed their ghostly, and once yellow capped (and they lost), they left. Unlikely Blue can BEAT Yellow 1 on 1, with a full-team rez every minute.. (Unless your name is Thumper and you have 2 fire eles and a water behind you)
-Try and kill yellow that either they or blue caps. They (Red or blue) is now holding center, but neither Yellow or Red can accumulate enough points for Victory, so Red ganked Yellow.
=> If this situation occurs, you ALWAYS gank one team, yes Lore, I've seen u resign after killing blue ghostly, letting the other team cap, thus giving the Victory to the non-blue team, cuz they couldn't take them out 1v1...

Last second cap prevents this unwanted gank...

Sure, Old school Holding has it flaws, but then again, people didn't mind them back than... It's pretty simple, if you're a fan of brainless aoe spamming, you like this Halls, if you like versatility in builds, you prefer Old-School-Holding...

Horace The Great · Nov 04, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

I voted for oldschool altar holding. I am not sure if it's still so fun as it used to be with the new skills. If it is not then I would like the new KotH.

Kyp Jade · Nov 04, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

The Rotating objectives is the way to go, its fine really, except for the Cap points and Relic run need to shift a little blit. Example later in post, but first.

Stop QQing about ganking in the current meta, ganking has existed since tombs was created and teams could get to halls consistantly. It wasnt there so much in the 5 way altar holding (often times you dont face a team at all even), but in the 3 way I've experienced pleanty of ganks. Lots of people were good enough and of the mindset, lets kick them back to underworld, and race them back here so we can hold for an hour.

Im not even going to get into skill balance issues, because this format had its own problems, the skill vs map mechanic interaction brings out different imbalances in different skills.

As for changes to the current HoH, Keep it as rotating objectives, yes some skills will be much more powerful on some objectives, such as ward v harm on cap pts, or SONG OF CONCENTRATION on koth, but otherwise the rotating objectives helps a small amount to keep this from being to big of a problem, since you dont really need song to force a cap in relic run, allowing other teams that dont feel like taking such a gimmicky skill a fair chance to win the match,

The problems to the objectives however
Cap pts
not enough shrines, AND teams start with a shrine. The problem with adding more shrines, is that you have to redesign the map. You can do a few things which would be interesting.
Spread shrines out in the hallway to get a effect similar to antechamber, or spread shrines out in the center altar to get a new effect. You dont need more than the four shrines you do now really. This ALSO vastly decreases the power of AoE effects and ward v harm in conjunction, since you have four different areas in the center chamber that teams are focusing in, thats up to 24 different players spread out similarly in the KoTH match, which is much more itneresting than 24 players cramming themselves on the center altar and then exploding from AoE.

ALSO with a change to the map as i suggest above, or as an edit on its own, the point system in cap pts itself could be changed, the morale bar from costume brawl is an amazing example, fill up a morale bar for a point rather than cap/disable shrine before a timer. This greatly softens the blow of getting ganked by a team at the end, since a full team gank to your base means less if your holding a point somewhere else which is often the case.
As to how to implement these extra shrines, you could have them at the bottom of each teams steps inside the center chamber, or diagonal wise, just be certain you cannot stand in one spot to cap two shrines.

as for relic run, there are really only a few problems, first and foremost, last to cap wins. In a real match with teams of skill, the final score is usually 8-8-8, well isnt that boring. What you really desire in the map thats supposed to be the end of everythign is some interesting gameplays for a short amount of time, not people playing rock paper scissors in the center chamber like my guild does. I dont think a map change needs to be implemented in this case, however

First to cap wins is a possible solution, and should be implemented already , and yes you will come under pressure by both opposing teams if your winning, but thats already both in koth and in cap pts, so dont QQ. at least youll see 8-8-9 lol
Also in conjuction however, it should have the race feel to it, to prevent again the slow pace that you still would see when teams of skill are playing, (no one wants to get ahead) Possibly a first to 20 relic win condition on top of first to cap.

As for further balance changes, I really dont want to go into to much detail in this thread

¿Evan¿ · Nov 04, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Just take 3 way relic out of the rotation(gankfest against the holding team). Putting in just KoTH or oldschool last team holding just promotes more overly defensive teams. Leaving capture points in makes it so people have to run damage and use tactics to hold.

Also take out fetid because it has a horrible layout and put sacred back in.

Lorekeeper · Nov 04, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

i think the few posters worth reading in the HA forums have said their piece in well thoughtout and reasoned way...

i dont think anything more need to be said by them or me i just hope the rest of the posts dont drown out our posts by sheer volume and repetition. The rest of these pages are fit for dogs to chew on imo.

/exit

Nurse With Wound · Nov 04, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I had to do major cleanup in this thread, and I'm loosing all hope that decent discussion is possible in here anymore. Try to use full sentences, do not insult other posters, form your arguments logically.
I really don't want to lock all this, but you're not helping. Get back on topic, and post like adults not 10 year olds with ADHD.

Lord Mendes · Nov 05, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

and post like adults not 10 year olds with ADHD.

Can I still take the Adderall?
<3

Mutliple objectives are good because they create a more offense/movement based meta, as opposed to creating a meta where balanced is a "3 monks/full warder/spike/interupt ghostly" fest. Sure it was fun and I loved it, but HA could be much better with multiple skill-based objectives (which is why some of them need to be changed).
The shitty thumper meta is still around because of lack of significant nerfs; don't blame the objectives.

lishi · Nov 05, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I would say split Hoh in 2 map.

The first map you have 2 contender fighting for the right of be in hoh.

In Hoh you are fighting (with random objective) 1v1 for the real thing.

Those will be 2 different map while in map A there is a match in map B there will be too (the previous winner of map A).

No gank, no luck component. Just player build and skill.

Since is unlikely this will happen they could start with a small fix on king of hill.

The winning team will be the last one with the altar, more you hold the altar before more bonus you will get.(so its worth trying to fight for the altar before last 2 minute (Sono random effect on the ghost and the team like more hp, more damage etc etc).

In this way the team with 0 point will keep fighting because they will still have a small chance to win.

Nadia Roark · Nov 05, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

The shitty thumper meta is still around because of lack of significant nerfs; don't blame the objectives.

QFT. I don't have a problem with bunny thumpers per se, but I think it's pretty obvious that the RaO "nerf" had absolutely no effect. It's still used to the exclusion of nearly all other melee elites and if you want to get technical, RaO thumping doesn't really even require that its player be at the keyboard. Ever see that episode of the Simpsons where Homer goes on disability by getting really fat? He sets up a drinking bird at his workstation so he can watch TV while working because all he has to do is press one key at sporadic intervals. I think of that episode every time I see a thumper.

Kyp Jade · Nov 05, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

If any devs see this thread, it would be useful to look at the dwindling number of guru posters in the HA section. For example (I cant find a link to the kill count poll, its gone I think ever since the move). But, weve had 99 voters on this so far, from the part of the guru community that is interested enough in HA to even read these threads. Now, each one of these posters represents many people that dont bother to read the forums at all, it is a fansite after all and not everyone uses it. i am NOT saying at all that the results refelcted here reflect the views of the entire population, i am however.....

The number of polls in this thread is about 99, the number of posters in the kill count thread were already a few hundred voters.

If that is not a wake up call that your failing to keep HA fun and competitive (waiting in HoH 12 mins for an opposing team is niether fun nor competitive), then I dont know what else is

Vulkanyaz · Nov 05, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Oldschool altar cap.. bring it back

Andrew Patrick · Nov 06, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I will pass this poll and thread on to the designers. Please encourage your friends to share their opinions as well.

I Angra I · Nov 06, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

HOH definitely needs to keep rotating objectives. Different objectives than the ones now are fine, but there needs to be more than one to promote non-gimmicky builds.

If the old altar holding came back, you will see gimmicky, boring, hyper-defensive holding builds with no depth at all to them. I'd rather see more interesting balanced builds that are designed to take on multiple things.

Riotgear · Nov 06, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Ever see that episode of the Simpsons where Homer goes on disability by getting really fat? He sets up a drinking bird at his workstation so he can watch TV while working because all he has to do is press one key at sporadic intervals. I think of that episode every time I see a thumper.

I'm more reminded of how you play Warlocks in WoW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sM32g2weAc

TheZens · Nov 06, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I really dont think we will get sweeping changes anymore Anet just dont have the time/money to invest in those changes. We can only hope they do and we get some big changes for HoH in the future afterall thats where we have the major issues right now.

Having said that i think the cheap/quick solution is change HoH to 1v1 kill count with a 10 minute timelimit and no res shrine. Make the map so you can only play in the giant central altar area so people cant kite spike a win and the area is big enough to avoid the problem of AoE. The winner is the team with most kills after 10 mins or the first to wipe the opposition team. If the score is level after 10 mins then both teams lose.

Im trying to think of any obvious flaws in this mechanic and i really cant see any everyone will be playing offensive builds because being defensive wont win you the match here. I can see a lot more balanced style builds coming back again and a lot more build variety that we no longer see.

Other than that making HoH King of the hill with the new style is a decent option too just make the points system scale with time to make the matches more interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheZens

King of the Hill – Most people seem to think this mechanic is fine however I think it is fatally flawed. Why you ask? Well watch King of the Hill matches on observer and notice most teams will resign and give up with 2 minutes remaining on the clock? Effectively giving the holding team a free win, If a team resigns with 2 minutes to go there is little chance for the other team to overtake the current holding team in this mechanic this is a big flaw. The current points system means teams can’t win so rather than waste time they just resign and go back in again its because of this flawed points system I’ve seen both opposing teams resign with 4 minutes still left on the clock, wow what a great HoH match that was?. The old altar system was more exciting because you had a chance to win right until the last seconds of the match (if your ghost was alive) these really are the epic games everyone wants to be part of you really feel you earned those victories. We need game mechanics that give people a chance to win for as long as possible and that’s why I suggest we make King of the Hill a scaling points system.

The system stays as it is with teams getting a point every 30 seconds they hold but the points system changes obeying the following rules:

The match is 8 minutes long the team that holds the Altar for the longest period of time during the match gets 1 bonus point. Maybe some kind of clock for each team should show for how long each have held the Altar.

Minutes 8-3 a team gets 1 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time.
Minutes 3-1 a team gets 2 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time.
Minutes 1-0 a team gets 3 points for holding the Altar at set 30 second periods of time.

This fix should mean that everyone plays on for longer in these matches giving holding builds a much harder time in winning than the current system.