Curse

Nurse With Wound · Nov 01, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Because several posters requested a poll on possible changes to Hall of Heroes here it comes

As usual in poll threads, please don't derail the thread, stick to the topic, vote and comment.

Offtopic will be deleted.

As a side note, please lets not discuss the other maps in rotation. My personal opinion is that apart from bringing back Sacred Temples, and possibly removing one annihilation map ( fetid? burial? ), the current rotation is really good. Of course you can disagree, but post in other threads about it. This one is for HOH only!

person a · Nov 01, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

I don't like how it is right now, but it needs to have some kind of rotating objective or you have builds designed speciffically for holding it,which makes for lots of blockway and boring matches. I'm not implying that the objective's stay the same, by all means take out alter capping and relics. It does need to have mutiple objectives though, possibly new KotH, Old alter cap, and one other game variant (if needed). Old school alter cap had it's fair share of problems, and if we played KotH all the time it would degenerte into holding builds where most of the matches are decided before the final two minutes. A thrid objective added to these two would be best, because if it were to switch of old school alter cap and new KotH all of the matches would be focused on the alter, which would lead to holding builds with lots of blocks and gimmicky AoE. I think old school alter, new KotH and a thrid NEW objective (not relics or cap points) would be optimal. However, these are just my personal opinons and i don't ha much, so feel free to disregard any misinformed or false statements.

edit- If I could I would change my vote to other, but i posted before that was an option. expanded a little on my ideas.

Nurse With Wound · Nov 01, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Poll modded ( post in detail what is Your proposal for HOH )

Riotgear · Nov 01, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

While I find relic runs and capture points to be pretty boring, KotH does need to be rotated or there are just going to be lame holding builds again. The fact that the altar grants points instead of a final hold is not going to change that, you'll still see teams winning by stacking absurd amounts of defense and waiting for the timer to run down.

Old KotH with Song of Concentration + Ward of Stability is stupid.

infymys · Nov 01, 2007, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Change the winning mechanic on relic runs. i.e.: Two/three teams all have 23 relics at end of match. Shouldn't the team that got to 23 first, win? Other than that, the other objectives are fine with me.

Sword · Nov 01, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

HoH fails now
Anet made horrible changes to halls, and is the reason that nobody good plays hoh anymore, it is simply unfun.

win conditions are retarded as teams can simply team up on the better team/full out gank/ etc.

add retarded skills / ruin pvp enviroments = dead game , gl selling GW2 anet (lol)

auch · Nov 01, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

oldschool altar cap ftw

randomnoobi · Nov 01, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Anet made horrible changes to halls, and is the reason that nobody good plays hoh anymore, it is simply unfun.

Or it could be the game is like 30 months old and people tend to find new games after this time. I guess you didn't think of that.

I went with old school as long as some skills would be changed.

Takida · Nov 01, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

The thing you say about holding builds, Since you wont need water eles and stuff , You got spots open for counters and stuff, I think this will be alot better than it is atm, Old school altar holding ftw !!

Lorekeeper · Nov 01, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

this is a poll that should not exist, it is unnecessary. Threads have been made concerning ideas to improve the HoH rotation, threads that have been ignored.

Threads have been made discussing the reasons why we have the new 3 map rotation, including discussions regarding the comparison between the new style KoTH and the old altar holding mechanics.

Andrew Patrick himself posted thoughts on why HoH had a 3 map rotation and why old style altar holding was removed and the new one installed.

this poll will be populated with people who

1) dont have the creativity or imagination to realise that the existing HoH rotation could work with major tweaks (like those discussing in old threads)
2) want to run holding builds and hold hoh for hours on end
3) dont like having to adapt to a diverse environment and dont understand what will promote diversity in HA.

not to mention the fact that there are barely any players left worth polling in HA. Its full of gimmick scrubs. Gimmick players would support any kind of system that reduced diversity and reduced the need for adaptation and flexibility. In this case, the number of players who will benefit from a limited HoH rotation (gimmick players running 1-dimensional builds) far outnumbers the number of players who benefit from a diverse HoH rotation (balanced players running flexible builds).

as far as i can see... what is wrong with the HoH rotation is the following

1) relic run rewards last cap - this needs to change to first cap and it also needs to promote fast running. The conditions for relic runs on the earlier map promote a proper running style match... in the three way map in HoH additional mechanics need to be introduced to simulate those same conditions to allow the 3 teams better freedom to run their relics. Basically it is undesirable to gain a clear lead vs two opposing teams because it is practically impossible to survive a combined attack from those two teams.

2) capture points needs more shrines - the other two cap point maps in the HA rotation have at least 1 base shrine per team and 3 additional neutral shrines. HoH has 1 base shrine per team and 1 neutral shrine... more neutral shrines need to be introduced to spread out the focus of the fight, right now too much attention is given to the center neutral shrine and any moves to the outer shrines simply takes one team out of the game and give it to another. Multiple neutral shrines will encourage more interesting strategies more consistant with a capture point objective set... if you want the fight focused on the altar we have KOTH already.

unless people state their reasons why they dont like the existing HoH rotation this poll is pointless. Because you wont be able to understand whether their votes are done with reasonable intentions or whether they are done to further their own interests.

polling has a dangerous side to it... in that it can create the wrong idea. If 100% of people want old style altar holding back, with little to no justifications provided, it really doesnt convince me that HoH should consist only of altar holding. Majority is not always right. Im sure if democratic countries polled their populations whether income tax should be removed... you would get a huge number of people voting yes... but in all honesty... income tax is necessary. Ask people if interest rates should be scrapped... im sure most people would say yes... but interest rates are necessary too.

unless all Anet wants to do is please the remaining players who do actually play HA still... or if they want the players who played HA to hold HOH with holding builds to come back...

in which case they will surely destroy HA and cast into doubt all the major changes theyve made to HA since they added 6vs6.

Takida · Nov 01, 2007, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

this is a poll that should not exist, it is unnecessary. Threads have been made concerning ideas to improve the HoH rotation, threads that have been ignored.

Threads have been made discussing the reasons why we have the new 3 map rotation, including discussions regarding the comparison between the new style KoTH and the old altar holding mechanics.

Andrew Patrick himself posted thoughts on why HoH had a 3 map rotation and why old style altar holding was removed and the new one installed.

this poll will be populated with people who

1) dont have the creativity or imagination to realise that the existing HoH rotation could work with major tweaks (like those discussing in old threads)
2) want to run holding builds and hold hoh for hours on end
3) dont like having to adapt to a diverse environment and dont understand what will promote diversity in HA.

not to mention the fact that there are barely any players left worth polling in HA. Its full of gimmick scrubs. Gimmick players would support any kind of system that reduced diversity and reduced the need for adaptation and flexibility. In this case, the number of players who will benefit from a limited HoH rotation (gimmick players running 1-dimensional builds) far outnumbers the number of players who benefit from a diverse HoH rotation (balanced players running flexible builds).

as far as i can see... what is wrong with the HoH rotation is the following

1) relic run rewards last cap - this needs to change to first cap and it also needs to promote fast running. The conditions for relic runs on the earlier map promote a proper running style match... in the three way map in HoH additional mechanics need to be introduced to simulate those same conditions to allow the 3 teams better freedom to run their relics. Basically it is undesirable to gain a clear lead vs two opposing teams because it is practically impossible to survive a combined attack from those two teams.

2) capture points needs more shrines - the other two cap point maps in the HA rotation have at least 1 base shrine per team and 3 additional neutral shrines. HoH has 1 base shrine per team and 1 neutral shrine... more neutral shrines need to be introduced to spread out the focus of the fight, right now too much attention is given to the center neutral shrine and any moves to the outer shrines simply takes one team out of the game and give it to another. Multiple neutral shrines will encourage more interesting strategies more consistant with a capture point objective set... if you want the fight focused on the altar we have KOTH already.

unless people state their reasons why they dont like the existing HoH rotation this poll is pointless. Because you wont be able to understand whether their votes are done with reasonable intentions or whether they are done to further their own interests.

polling has a dangerous side to it... in that it can create the wrong idea. If 100% of people want old style altar holding back, with little to no justifications provided, it really doesnt convince me that HoH should consist only of altar holding. Majority is not always right. Im sure if democratic countries polled their populations whether income tax should be removed... you would get a huge number of people voting yes... but in all honesty... income tax is necessary. Ask people if interest rates should be scrapped... im sure most people would say yes... but interest rates are necessary too.

unless all Anet wants to do is please the remaining players who do actually play HA still... or if they want the players who played HA to hold HOH with holding builds to come back...

in which case they will surely destroy HA and cast into doubt all the major changes theyve made to HA since they added 6vs6.

Have you seen halls lately? .... It does NOT Promote balanceds..
From what i've seen there's a new "sway" build wich includes: 2 thumps 2 fire 1 water, And u know what? The build holds forever..

Why not just give it a test weekend seriously..
It would work !!

Deano Mac · Nov 01, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

wtb meta nerf nuff sed ~~

Lorekeeper · Nov 01, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Have you seen halls lately? .... It does NOT Promote balanceds..
From what i've seen there's a new "sway" build wich includes: 2 thumps 2 fire 1 water, And u know what? The build holds forever..

Why not just give it a test weekend seriously..
It would work !!

sigh

this is exactly the type of player who will be posting and voting in this thread...

its the difference between tabloid and broadsheet presentation of a debate - tabloids using short, narrow and easy to understand sentences that give a very narrowminded and incomplete overview of the problem in order to persuade people who are too lazy to really understand the problem, for example

''HoH does not promote balanced builds therefore altar holding would work!''

this sentence fails on so many parts.

you didnt post why the HoH rotation doesnt promote balanced. (i think you will find the reasons why people good people do not play in HA are not because of balanced not being promoted but because NO build is promoted because of the ganking that occurs in HoH... the vast majority of wins in HoH are not down to who played the best, but decided by who ganked who and for how long. Its got nothing to do with what build you are running, and if balanced teams are getting ganked more than gimmick teams... thats because there are way too many lame gimmick build players out there compared to balanced... and that is a problem concerning skill balance NOT the HoH rotation.)

you didnt post why old style altar holding would promote balanced.

(that will be an interesting post to see)

as for the new thumper build... its not nearly as gimmicky as the spirit build... you need to understand that these builds that become popular are bound to reach HoH by sheer weight of numbers if more than 50% or even 75% of builds are spirit way and macdroknars way (the dual fire build) its no suprise they are getting to HoH and winning, its a matter of probability. If the majority of teams in HA were balanced... balanced teams would be holding HoH all the time.

the BIGGEST problem that needs to be solved about HA is the way it is a breeding ground for gimmick builds... in HA gimmick builds dominate over other builds in GvG gimmick builds are dominated by the better balanced teams.

by gimmick i am talking about iways, bloodspikes, vimways, spiritways, paraways etc etc.

if we get rid of these builds will balanced teams will come back?

unfortunately... because of the concentration of capture point maps on HA now... without spiritway people will just start to run builds with multiple fire eles which will be equally as boring.

theres so much that needs doing and i really cant go through it all, but you simply cannot attribute the disappearance of balanced builds because of the 3 map HoH rotation... its so much more complicated than that.

and please dont start believing that test weekends actually show any real results... all they do is create innaccurate results... of course there will be an increase in HA play because of something new being tested... doesnt mean whats being tested is any good. All you learn from test weekends is that people like testing new things!

Takida · Nov 01, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

sigh

this is exactly the type of player who will be posting and voting in this thread...

its the difference between tabloid and broadsheet presentation of a debate - tabloids using short, narrow and easy to understand sentences that give a very narrowminded and incomplete overview of the problem in order to persuade people who are too lazy to really understand the problem, for example

''HoH does not promote balanced builds therefore altar holding would work!''

this sentence fails on so many parts.

you didnt post why the HoH rotation doesnt promote balanced. (i think you will find the reasons why people good people do not play in HA are not because of balanced not being promoted but because NO build is promoted because of the ganking that occurs in HoH... the vast majority of wins in HoH are not down to who played the best, but decided by who ganked who and for how long. Its got nothing to do with what build you are running, and if balanced teams are getting ganked more than gimmick teams... thats because there are way too many lame gimmick build players out there compared to balanced... and that is a problem concerning skill balance NOT the HoH rotation.)

you didnt post why old style altar holding would promote balanced.

(that will be an interesting post to see)

Im gonna tell you why people dont want old altars to come back,
Its because of Holding Builds, the thing is, That It is so easy to Counter them in 8v8, Holding Builds were only a Problem
in 6v6 cause you couldnt bring any counters, Or Harder to bring any counters.

In the Current Halls, You cant really make a old balanced build if u want to hold. In the current hoh ..
You need: Snares... AoE Dmg.... And be able to split.
IF halls get changed, You will see alot more Mesmers, Alot more necros,
And YES / Hallelujah ! 3 Monk backline with a warder

( Sorry for bad english and cause of the short, But i dont have anymore time,
Dragon laugh if u want

we all know ur a god.)

.

crucifix · Nov 01, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by auch

oldschool altar cap ftw

/signed

I still want a factions/ prophs only server

Nurse With Wound · Nov 01, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

The poll is a purely posters request, it is their forum and they are entitled to it. That being said, I agree with Lorekeeper that the results of this poll shouldn't be taken very seriously as most of the people voting in polls are too lazy to actually discuss the issue and are just hitting the voting button. I view it merely as panem et circenses, with emphasis on the second part.

My personal opinion is that current HoH rotation is working well, although it could use some minor fixes. We were discussing those in previous threads, which have sadly fallen out of the first page.
To point them out in short manner though -

1) capture points lack the required shrines number to make this a balanced map. With one shrines for each team and the central altar it is either KotH, or just gank, nothing in between. Two neutral shrines would have improve the map.
2) Relic run in HoH is not a good format. Basically it should promote faster running, but on the other hand, if your team is leading you have to face gank by both opposing teams, which usually ends in defeat. It's hard to balance this map due to the simple and straightforward path from relic to altar, so there is no simple solution to this problem ( not without changes to map, adding additional conditions etc ). As it is now, it very luck - dependent, and sadly awards last cap.

Old altar capping will not bring old balanced team domination over HoH. Sadly, there are just few good old teams who can run quality balanced nowadays. Heroes Ascent population has changed, and it is mostly populated by new players, who do not care about quality of game, but fame and fame only, so the only solution for improving the situation is manually handling the meta through fast and frequent skill balances that would decimate FotMs and gimmicks. Basically if people don't care about quality builds, you have to force them to run them with proper skill balance.

Of course this is impossible now, and the sad state of halls is beyond repair in my opinion. The problem lays not in new map rotation, which is very good, but the players themselves. And I too miss the old tombs, crowded, populated with many good teams and HA guilds. But its the past that cannot be brought back.

Takida · Nov 01, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

/signed

I still want a factions/ prophs only server

lol agreed...

randomnoobi · Nov 01, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Im gonna tell you why people dont want old altars to come back,
Its because of Holding Builds, the thing is, That It is so easy to Counter them in 8v8, Holding Builds were only a Problem
in 6v6 cause you couldnt bring any counters, Or Harder to bring any counters

I guess I'm the only one to remember b-spike holding for 8 hours in 8man?

Lorekeeper · Nov 01, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Im gonna tell you why people dont want old altars to come back,
Its because of Holding Builds, the thing is, That It is so easy to Counter them in 8v8, Holding Builds were only a Problem
in 6v6 cause you couldnt bring any counters, Or Harder to bring any counters.

In the Current Halls, You cant really make a old balanced build if u want to hold. In the current hoh ..
You need: Snares... AoE Dmg.... And be able to split.
IF halls get changed, You will see alot more Mesmers, Alot more necros,
And YES / Hallelujah ! 3 Monk backline with a warder

( Sorry for bad english and cause of the short, But i dont have anymore time,
Dragon laugh if u want

we all know ur a god.)

.

lets get things straight here

1) holding builds were as strong in 8vs8 as they were in 6vs6 but for different reasons - i honestly cant believe you would claim otherwise... did you forget spiritway? Bloodspike? Rangerspike? The history of tombs has been plagued by holding builds because of the old altar holding mechanic. The current KOTH at least makes it easier for non-holding builds to win because its based on a points system and not based on who is holding at the end of the match.

2) holding builds in 6vs6 were strong because of MAJOR skill imbalances - paragon holding builds were using incoming, angelic bonds, super motivation energy boosting finales and chants etc etc, and benefitted from HUGE armour bonuses from stand your ground and watch yourself. Jagged bones was an insane energy machine for necros when it was on a 5 second recharge. And yes, with only 6 skill bars it was quite difficult to pack enough direct counters to these builds... but there wouldnt have been the need for direct counters if the imbalances didnt exist

3) countering things is not the sign of a fun game - so many people are running spirit way in HA, but its so easy to beat, its so easy to counter it, but people still complain about it, either they fail at playing balanced builds or they are just bored of going through the same tiresome processes in every match... kill spirits wipe the backline... aura on the lod etc etc

4) in current halls you CAN make balanced builds, the balanced build is PERFECTLY capable of splitting, running relics and defending the altar on a the new KOTH map. What balanced builds cant do, nor ANY builds for that matter is survive a two team gank by people who dont want you to win or who dont understand HOW to play HoH. The problems with HoH have NOTHING to do with what builds are being run but EVERYTHING to do with the maps being awful mechanics for a threeway fight. Several HA guilds used to hold current HoH running balanced builds, and the reason why dont play anymore is mainly because they moved on to GvG because GvG is a far better environment to play in. Get rid of the lame gimmick nature of HA, where almost every match you fight is against the same crappy spiritway teams, and maybe just maybe the good teams will start playing because of the increased variety of opponent.

5) but like i said in my previous post... if you get rid of spiritway, people will just run builds with multiple fire eles, get rid of the need for fire eles and im sure they will find another gimmick to exploit. But thats HA, thats the nature of a fixed rotation with maps with very limited and focused objectives, its gimmick heaven and balanced builds will always find themselves in the minority simply because most players find it easier to run gimmick builds.

6) this debate is not about balanced vs gimmick, its about HoH. HoH is bad n matter what build you run. Because of reasons ive listed in my previous posts and countless other threads that have been created concerning the problem of the 3map rotation.

7) the solution is not so simple as to scrap this new rotation and replace it with the old. You still havent provided a convincing argument supporting old style altar holding. Im more than open to being convinced... but so far your attempts have been lacklustre. All you say is... in 8vs8 you can bring counters to holding builds, which just says to me that you already expect holding builds to dominate 8vs8 altar holding HoH... you said we can bring more mesmers and necros... why?? And why 3 monk backlines with warders? Isnt that just another way of saying I WANT HOLDING BUILDS BACK IN HOH?

/yawn

crucifix · Nov 01, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Holding builds were never a problem. the problem was people not playing offensive enough builds to kick out the holding juggernauts. My old guild used to run through halls with barrageway and hold for an hour or two. its was a horribly front loaded build with little to no defense. we would just hold by killing everyone and interrupting ghosties for 5 minutes. I dont think holding was the problem, the problem was that everyone wants to play the build that is currently winning halls. As we all know, killing a holding build with a holding build is a bitch.