Curse

Kyp Jade · Apr 06, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

No one said it was your duty, you shouldn't "guide" people if you're not willing to. But it's interesting to see how PvPers are reluctant to do that, at the opposite of PvErs. If you don't know how to do it, it's no reason to say no one shouldn't do it or it's no "duty". It's a game and has to be fun, if it's not fun for you to help people, don't do it, but don't blame people for saying they'd like some help.

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What do you think these forums were used for once upon a time. Before this turned into a place for us to whine that the devs are retards, players actually discussed strategy here, things like weapon swapping vs e-denial etc. Please stop with this argument about teaching people. Its a non-issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You know as much as I do that what would be a learning curve in different topic/game is a learning cliff in GW, partly due to Anet bad support/tutorial, I agree. But you can't simply leave the responsibility of the community out by saying "it's not our duty", the state of the game is what we make it. It's exactly like our society and humanity, you may not feel responsible for poverty, global warming or unfair global economy, but we are, despite the general unwillingness to acknowledge it.

To go back to teaching, a teacher understand the passing of knowledge requires pedagogy and adapting to people's behavior and way or learning. Of course, there are levels of teaching, where you go from knowledge to understanding, but I think the GW community is more and more failing on the first level (despite the wikis) and the second level seems more and more inaccessible. Of course, people don't care because they see what they want to see, i.e. their own belly button.

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Actually we can leave it out, it most definatly isnt our duty. This isnt school, this is a game, but besides being a game its a social tool. If someone wants to improve thier own status by pve titles or getting good in pvp, then its thier responsibility to do so.

Oh and no thats not arrogance at all, thats actually how things work in the real world you know. He doesnt know everything there is to know about computer science. But, when he is given a task by his employer, if he doesnt know how to do it, or the sytnax of whatever language hes told to write it in, he has to figure it out.

Divinus Stella · Apr 06, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I dont find people teaching others in PvE either, its nothing to do with PvP ELITISM.

You might not like being refused from high ranked guilds and HA pugs, but its exactly the same in any elite mission, the groups that know what they are doing often dont want randoms either, it just makes things harder than they need to be.

Riotgear · Apr 06, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

But it's interesting to see how PvPers are reluctant to do that, at the opposite of PvErs.

Because, as I said, the bulk of what you need to know isn't stuff you need to teach. The concepts of PvP are very easy to digest, it's the execution that matters far more, and for that, experience is the way to do it.

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But you can't simply leave the responsibility of the community out by saying "it's not our duty", the state of the game is what we make it. It's exactly like our society and humanity, you may not feel responsible for poverty, global warming or unfair global economy, but we are, despite the general unwillingness to acknowledge it.

Large-scale problems demand large-scale solutions, best performed by those capable of acting on a large scale.

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Arrogance FTL, I don't see how 15 years of programming can teach you all there is to know in computing.

Correct, but I hardly find "computer science material" difficult.

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But when the PvP match is finished, this state of mind of fighting against opponents seems to still exist in many PvPers, they're very aggressive and seeing comments as attacks, they try to defend themselves, while failing to imagine that the other person is not here to "win" because he knows discussions are not black&white.

I'm not sure whether you're trying to severely overanalyze things, or just making shit up. This is a forum, where people discuss and debate things. When people debate things, they try to prove that their statements are correct. You could call this trying to "win." This is extremely common and I don't see what it has to do with anything. The hostility of the GA section is more easily attributable to the massive number of inexperienced players that try to pass off incorrect information as fact.

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What I read in your reply is someone who wants to do as little as possible and is afraid that they'll have to spend "useless" time with newbies

Right, because becoming a good player is about 80% experience, 15% getting over yourself, and 5% tips tricks 'n' knowledge. You can acquire all of this a lot faster when you take the initiative yourself.

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Obs mode by itself is not usefull if you don't know where to look and the fast pace of skill updates does not help.

Obs mode is helpful largely because helps you learn where to look, which teaches you situation awareness. The place to look is clicking the name of the player that's playing the class you're most interested in digesting information about. :P

Fril Estelin · Apr 06, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

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Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

definatly isnt our duty.

That's why I said "responsibility", and not "duty" (re-read the first sentence of the post you quote).

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Oh and no thats not arrogance at all, thats actually how things work in the real world you know.

So because it works this way in the RL it should also be the same in a virtual world? It'd be pretty funny to carry on this argument (it's the "blue pill" you take and it still looks real which leads to the ultimate question: where do you place the boundaries between real and virtual?) but I won't as we're really very off-topic here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

or just making shit up.

I was about to answer your post ... and then I read this. It's just enough, I won't bother you again on this thread, just go on with disagreeing with what I said (which is your right of course) and enjoying the fact that Gaile is gone (which is lame).

Snow Bunny · Apr 06, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Can we get back to the celebration of Gaile's departure?

She did make PvE'ers happy. This is a fact. She and Andrew frequently visited this forum, a forum where a wealth of information consisting of actual players' opinions was located, and she didn't do anything with it.

Perhaps not every PvPer comments here, but enough do. Enough of the best ones do so that some reasonable conception of PvP as players would like it could be derived.

Instead, Gaile focused on half-truths and flat out ignorance of truth and catered to the imaginations of the PvE community.

I agree with Mighty Warrior's sentiments in this instance. Dredge them up if you like, and delete this post if you like, but she did nothing for the PvP community, a community of players that purchased the same game at the same price, and thus should be given the same level of attention.

Riotgear · Apr 06, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

That's why I said "responsibility", and not "duty" (re-read the first sentence of the post you quote).

responsibility (n)
2. Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden.

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I was about to answer your post ... and then I read this. It's just enough, I won't bother you again on this thread

Heh, what do you want me to say? I really have no idea what you're talking about there. You're trying to psychoanalyze the playerbase, all you're really succeeding in doing in stereotyping them with dreadful inaccuracy.

Gun Pierson · Apr 06, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

I dont find people teaching others in PvE either, its nothing to do with PvP ELITISM.

You might not like being refused from high ranked guilds and HA pugs, but its exactly the same in any elite mission, the groups that know what they are doing often dont want randoms either, it just makes things harder than they need to be.

So I'm the only one in the PvE comunity that teaches friends to play DoA and stuff, I should get a monument for that.

And I'm not even social online as I just initiate real life friends into the game.

@Riotgear: I'm wondering, what do you want concerning PvP? You don't believe in teaching and bringing people into PvP, everybody just have to play on their own and be their own master till they're good enough. By that time most people coming from PvE alrdy left again. Yet you say GW is a teamgame.

People in PvP leave faster than there are new recruits coming in, you guys have a problem. Does Anet have to teach them? Well they can't, as most of the good players know the game better than the devs do. Sure Anet made mistakes but I believe PvP in this game doesn't work for the masses otherwise we wouldn't even discuss this. It's not MTG and it's not Starcraft, it lacks ingredients and goodwill from all actors to become even close. PvE and PvP are two different games within the game. Where is the carrot to draw people away from PvE? There is no carrot, on the contrary, you get a kick under the 4ss for being noob. Yet you magically need to self educate.

In soccer, not only top clubs have scouts all over the world looking for potential talent. If they find an african player for example playing in a local crap team, they will take him with them and initiate him, make the raw stone into a diamond . They invest time and money in those players and it's not always fruitful. In Germany and France, both former soccer worldchampions, clubs invested in their youth (even local noob teams etc) but it pays off and keeps the sport alive.

What do you want man seriously, what's your creative view on things? Or do you just wanne blame Anet and Gaile? Think GW2 will be the answer?

lacasner · Apr 06, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

In situations like these, I usually like to try to understand a persons motivations for the actions they take, because after all it is fair to give Gaile a chance, at least so we don't have people just repeating over and over again the same stuff until the end of time.

Really unbiasedly, as a full-time PvPer myself, I can see why a person like Gaile would be somewhat apathetic to this part of guildwarsguru. People, in general (I am guilty of this) come here to gripe about problems with the game. This isn't to say that the griping isn't justified though; I feel it is. And even if it was Gaile's job to be the Com. Rep, I could understand why she would be discouraged with coming here.

To compare: Pve'rs: Conga Line YEA YEA!!11
Pvpers: WTF this build is OP and this gimmick sucks fix this you incompetent ********(overexaggeration but its the point im trying to get across :P)

With the decisions Anet made with PvP over the past year+, fixing it while keeping the majority of their playerbase happy (PvE) would truly be a monumental task for them. So, even though they don't really owe anyone anything because of the lack of a monthly fee, from a bussiness standpoint I can see why they would obviously cater to Pvers more.

However, from the PvP standpoint I stand in, it is true that it seems that she and other people in Anet didn't try at all. We cannot know this of course, and it seems like its false and im overly harsh, but its just my feeling and I am sticking to it.

Maybe though, if perhaps we as a community were a bit more clear and concise with the changes we want, instead of griping and bitching all the time, things would be different. Ask yourself this. If instead of whining 24/7 (even if it is justified) we took a different approach relative to the situation, to try to improve it, what could have done? Maybe not complained through every meta, no matter how bad it was/is? Because if your the devs look at it this way. They probably though: "Damn, everytime we try to update any skills, all we get is bitching and moaning from the PvP crowd. Ahh screw it, lets just wait a few months until people lose patience and then we'll do what they ask, only for a few weeks later for new gripers to appear."

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is although we (as PvPers) were correct and justified in our complaints, maybe the approach we took to gaile and others was completely wrong...and thus here we are today, stuck with a fairly decrepit and dying game, with really no hope except for gw2 in the future.
Thoughts?

Greedy Gus · Apr 06, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is although we (as PvPers) were correct and justified in our complaints, maybe the approach we took to gaile and others was completely wrong...and thus here we are today, stuck with a fairly decrepit and dying game, with really no hope except for gw2 in the future.
Thoughts?

The approach most players took was to just stop playing, which is the real shame for the game / future of the brand. The vocal minority has to be accepted for what it is in community-based games, whether it's annoying to acknowledge & deal with or not.

If the community relations manager of a massive online game is incapable of dealing with an entire portion of the customer base that tends toward critical dissent without inciting their rage/hate and her own indignance, she's probably terrible at her job.

Riotgear · Apr 06, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

@Riotgear: I'm wondering, what do you want concerning PvP?

To play.

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You don't believe in teaching and bringing people into PvP, everybody just have to play on their own and be their own master till they're good enough.

I don't believe in going out of my way to do it. If people want help, they can ask and I'll gladly give answers or point them to places they can find them. Ultimately though, getting better is something you need to do through experience, not tutoring.

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Does Anet have to teach them? Well they can't, as most of the good players know the game better than the devs do.

Anet can provide tutorials and difficulty stepping to cater to all levels of play.

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PvE and PvP are two different games within the game. Where is the carrot to draw people away from PvE?

The "carrot" should just be the fact that it's fun. If it's not fun, then basically what you're asking for is something to motivate people to do something that they don't think is fun. In other words, you're asking for a grind, the epitome of shit game design.

Rewards aren't necessary, merely ways to make it more fun to more people.

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What do you want man seriously, what's your creative view on things?

My view is that they should salvage AB and Jade Quarry, eliminate the HvH ladder and replace it with a TA ladder. Laddering HA should have been done a long time ago but its playerbase is too thin now.

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I think PvE will take over again because PvE is not a short campaign like for example in Starcraft etc.

The size of the PvE playerbase has no impact on the attractiveness of the PvP component. I thought we already went over this.

Gun Pierson · Apr 06, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Well PvE seems more fun to lots of people playing this game. Or people find other PvP games more fun than GW PvP, dunno. Where do you get your players from, especially if they have to self educate? Thought the idea was that the learning curve started in PvE. Yet a lot stick to PvE. Why?

The attractiveness of the PvP component is not strong enough to compete with the attractiveness of PvE in this game or with other PvP games (FPS) imo. The attractiveness of PvP starcraft is way bigger than that short PvE campaign. Do you understand what I wanne say?

I have a feeling GW2 will have a lot of PvE players, which will have an effect on PvP imo, especially if they're linked to eachother like in GW1. Maybe raids and stuff can counter that. Or you guys should get your own specialised top PvP game made by Anet, with tutorials but no big PvE environment, dunno.

If your ideas were indeed the cure sorta speak, it's a shame they were not implemented.

lacasner · Apr 06, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If the community relations manager of a massive online game is incapable of dealing with an entire portion of the customer base that tends toward critical dissent without inciting their rage/hate and her own indignance, she's probably terrible at her job.

Yea, that's true, I mean its either quit or "deal" at this point. The only question is how addicted is anyone else thats left to realize at some point its better to just jump off a sinking ship.

Riotgear · Apr 06, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Well PvE seems more fun to lots of people playing this game.

Except the PvE and PvP components are not exactly aimed at the same players. The PvP component is not aimed at the same players as several other more popular games. There is certainly some overlap, but you can't call something a failure just because something else is more popular.

It's also certainly not competing with PvE. PvE players get the PvP component as part of the package, it's like saying the slide on a playground is competing with the swingset.

Gun Pierson · Apr 06, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Except the PvE and PvP components are not exactly aimed at the same players. The PvP component is not aimed at the same players as several other more popular games. There is certainly some overlap, but you can't call something a failure just because something else is more popular.

It's also certainly not competing with PvE. PvE players get the PvP component as part of the package, it's like saying the slide on a playground is competing with the swingset.

Okay, but here they're linked or that was the original idea. You play PvE and then move on to PvP. Anet tried it again with factions, but after that changed to PvE direction.

As long as you have a minimal of players and can play and have proper support (with your ideas), there is no prob being a small segment of the market?

Just a funny note: I occasionaly play fort aspenwood (only 'pvp' I play anymore) because I can get away there playing with a signet/mantra of inscr. smite build for example, cause I find it real fun to play that build.

valence · Apr 07, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Self educate in a team game.

Sweet.

Where do we start this? AB is the only place where new players face off against the same level. Nice.

To give an example, lets say you have 3 friends. You go TA. In TA you will encounter A: lots of gimmicks B: ra teams C: good teams. Most of the time you will lose mainly couse the opponent is way better and resort to gimmicks.

Now this wouldn't be a problem, if it wouldn't happen for new players 95% of the time. That is what makes gw imo an hard to enter place. You need other players from your same level of play that are willing to stay and play, while keep losing over and over. You could say that a player just wants to learn, but a pvp with no reward is not something everybody wants to learn.

GvG is the only place which has a rating system, bit weird aint it. Basically, pvp isn't fun at all for new players, which is for pvp'ers like riotgear and me the motivation to play, but that just isn't there for new players.

Gun Pierson · Apr 07, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Self educate in a team game.

Sweet.

Where do we start this? AB is the only place where new players face off against the same level. Nice.

To give an example, lets say you have 3 friends. You go TA. In TA you will encounter A: lots of gimmicks B: ra teams C: good teams. Most of the time you will lose mainly couse the opponent is way better and resort to gimmicks.

Now this wouldn't be a problem, if it wouldn't happen for new players 95% of the time. That is what makes gw imo an hard to enter place. You need other players from your same level of play that are willing to stay and play, while keep losing over and over. You could say that a player just wants to learn, but a pvp with no reward is not something everybody wants to learn.

GvG is the only place which has a rating system, bit weird aint it. Basically, pvp isn't fun at all for new players, which is for pvp'ers like riotgear and me the motivation to play, but that just isn't there for new players.

Great post! So a solution could be a match making system where people or teams of equal skill face eachother? Don't ask me how they can implement such tool in this game though.

Riotgear · Apr 07, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Now this wouldn't be a problem, if it wouldn't happen for new players 95% of the time. That is what makes gw imo an hard to enter place.

Right, which is why I said TA needs a ladder.

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You could say that a player just wants to learn, but a pvp with no reward is not something everybody wants to learn.

Most MMOs with PvP have trivial rewards if any at all, WoW was this way for quite some time and had a decent following. Add rewards and all you get are teams that don't care about winning as much as farming the system (see: HA gimmicks, WoW 10-loss-per-week farming), which generally doesn't contribute to the fun factor.

DutchSmurf · Apr 07, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

To give an example, lets say you have 3 friends. You go TA. In TA you will encounter A: lots of gimmicks B: ra teams C: good teams. Most of the time you will lose mainly couse the opponent is way better and resort to gimmicks.

I don't see the problem here. Actually, I think it is exactly what PvP should be. If you are just starting with PvP, you are likely to lose a lot. A TA ladder would help a little with that, but won't solve it for sure.
So you and 3 friends are starting with TA. Naturally, you will lose most matches against teams in group A and C. And some of B. Now you are at the point you have to make some choices yourself. You have to put yourself in one of the groups now. So that means you either copy the build of one of the A-teams that beat you, or you look at what went wrong and try to improve on that (in other words getting better, so getting into group C). Or you give up and move to B.
That is basically the situation any new PvP player in GW finds himself in. Of course you can try to ease the pain of losing. But it all comes down to what you think is fun. Most people think winning=fun and if they don't win, they aren't having fun. But with that kind of thinking, it is hard to get into PvP. Since there you have to get through your first loses to get somewhere. Of course it got even worse through the years. The good players only got better, making the gap between new and old players bigger. Sadly there is no solution to that. As said before, a TA ladder would have been great. But I doubt we will ever see it.

Divinus Stella · Apr 07, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Great post! So a solution could be a match making system where people or teams of equal skill face eachother? Don't ask me how they can implement such tool in this game though.

Thats called GvG, your matched up based on rating which is a rough indication of skill.

Aside from being the highest form of PvP, its also the most forgiving when compared to other arenas chucking in the most experienced against the fresh players.

Kyp Jade · Apr 07, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If the community relations manager of a massive online game is incapable of dealing with an entire portion of the customer base that tends toward critical dissent without inciting their rage/hate and her own indignance, she's probably terrible at her job.

/Win thread, someone give gus a cookie.

I also dont think the learning curve is as steep as you make it out to be, especially if someone as horrible at GW as myself can be successful in PvP im sure 1337 PvE'ers could break the barrier easier than I could. Duh /facepalm