Curse

Greedy Gus · Apr 03, 2008, 09:55 AM // 09:55

ofn

12chars

Rampager · Apr 03, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

Andrew left too

yeah uh now who is going to tell izzy about our rants?

Sister Rosette · Apr 03, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

PR is a fickle creature. I hope Gaile and Andrew have the best of luck in their new positions.

Jesse · Apr 03, 2008, 02:40 PM // 14:40

she said some stupid things but nonetheless did the job for the pve ers. as everyone else is saying and i agree with them completely...she didnt do much for pvp and any balance or support

American Wrath · Apr 03, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Regarding the above post:

What exactly did Gaile do for PvE players? She came to town, had people beg her for stuff, got some sugar points, and left. All of the serious inquiries people gave her were ignored in favor of comments like "Thanks, _____, I like your armor, too!"

Of course she didn't do anything for balance... it's not her job to.

I'm glad that a more competent person will soon be stepping in to get things done for once.

Kyp Jade · Apr 03, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitea

"Random casual players that decide to post in here definatly are NOT a representative of the community, but there are a few dozen members, especially most of the mods and older players that are."

Wow, sometimes reading threads on this forum (and how eliteist everyone is) really just ticks me off. I feel Gaile did a fine job in a position that isn't necessary for ArenaNet to offer and maybe she did cater more to the 'random casual player' but we would be the majority of who plays the game.

Way to take my post out of context. Please tell me how a casual gamer that doesnt play at a high level, and thinks turret rangers are a good thing for the game should be listened to by the devs with the same amount of attention and consideration as someone who knows this game inside out and probably better than the devs themselves do.

There are a lot of good posts throughout this subforum, but a lot of times I have to filter through someone whining that thier favorite build is gone because it was nerfed. Or why every skill in the game should be buffed to be viable.

Gaile was bad at being CR, because she only kept the adolescents, and pve only players happy. Andrew was better, but still not great because he didnt really help us at all specifically the things he did pass on were 10% good posts, 90% pve crap. (which is exactly what my post was about, if your pissed at me for being elitist then you are probably part of the 90% that needs to think about your post more in terms of the entire game than just all skills being viable)

If Anet is going to hire a new CR, the person needs to be just as involved as playing this game at a high level of pvp as some of the top 10 GvG guild players are. The new guy needs to have the same understanding as we do, and not just pass along info that seems important.

Someone said it before, this game WAS a competitive gold mine, this is true, but mishandling and bad design decisions destroyed that for anet.

JR · Apr 03, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Wrath

Of course she didn't do anything for balance... it's not her job to.

You clearly have very little understanding of the role of community staff.

To be very brief: Their job is to translate concerns from the community to the developers. A large chunk of that, in a game like Guild Wars, is skill balance. They let the people concerned know the issues, and in serious situations push for something to be done about it.

Riotgear · Apr 03, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

One thing that, in retrospect, may have helped is a sort of published "community summary" that is player-visible, so that if there are any clear oversights, they can be brought up. I believe there's another MMO that does this. Of course, it creates a bit more unrest at times (because now you have people bitching about stuff not making it into the community summary AND not making it into live), and some people treat the community summary as a list of issues that will be addressed, but it does help ensure that concerns are making their way across.

Also, it's clear a lot of the problems weren't exactly the result of poor communication but bad design decisions made on input that was obviously received. There are also decisions that seem to be made based on concerns (like buffing certain shit skills) simply because they're concerns, rather than concerns that reflect shortfalls in meeting an overarching design goal.

DutchSmurf · Apr 03, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Their job is to translate concerns from the community to the developers. A large chunk of that, in a game like Guild Wars, is skill balance. They let the people concerned know the issues, and in serious situations push for something to be done about it.

Yet 95% of the players could care less about skill balance. Making passing on concerns about it suddenly only a minor thing. Which is why PvE players were mostly happy with Gaile and PvP players aren't happy with her at all. If GW was a pure PvP game, you would be right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

One thing that, in retrospect, may have helped is a sort of published "community summary" that is player-visible, so that if there are any clear oversights, they can be brought up. I believe there's another MMO that does this. Of course, it creates a bit more unrest at times (because now you have people bitching about stuff not making it into the community summary AND not making it into live), and some people treat the community summary as a list of issues that will be addressed, but it does help ensure that concerns are making their way across.

You are completely right about the reasons why it wouldn't work. I believe it has been discussed before (months/years ago). Back then it was considered not to be worth it. Think that is still true. Actually think it would do more harm then good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Also, it's clear a lot of the problems weren't exactly the result of poor communication but bad design decisions made on input that was obviously received.

True, bad decisions have had far more to do with the current problems then anything else. If you look at how really good ideas got put into the game (if at all)... Anyone remembers the UAX discussion that turned into Balthazar Faction (2 points per kill ftw)? Same with lots of skillbalance issues. Or with tournaments. Or even observer mode.
So I don't see a reason to be happy about Gaile/Andrew leaving. Try again when Izzy/another important dev is leaving.

Captain Robo · Apr 03, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

yeah uh now who is going to tell izzy about our rants?

Holy flaming nut do you mean that Izzy just might have to read the forums himself?

frojack · Apr 03, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Skill balance is up to the designers and Izzy. Sure, the CR's can point shit to them, but that is all (bug them? Yeah, that's a good idea for...), but ultimately, the final decision lies elsewhere.

It's well known that the dev's read the forums as well(it's not hard), unless of course they are lying. Anyone blaming the bulk of skill balance issues in this game on CR people like Gaile or Andrew Patrick or whomever, are quite possibly deluding themselves...

Riotgear · Apr 03, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

You are completely right about the reasons why it wouldn't work.

I'm saying there are drawbacks, but I think it would work and mostly be a positive thing.

Quote:

Or even observer mode.

Observer mode and the PvP equipment builder are things I'd assume are almost definitely due to user feedback.

JR · Apr 03, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Yet 95% of the players could care less about skill balance. Making passing on concerns about it suddenly only a minor thing. Which is why PvE players were mostly happy with Gaile and PvP players aren't happy with her at all. If GW was a pure PvP game, you would be right.

You are putting the cart before the horses. Lack of attention to PvP led to a small PvP community, not the other way around.

It doesn't have to be a pure PvP game for PvP concerns to be valid. Especially in the case of Guild Wars where, as we all know, skill balances really only effect PvP seriously.

DutchSmurf · Apr 03, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Observer mode and the PvP equipment builder are things I'd assume are almost definitely due to user feedback.

I mean they were done because of user feedback, but (most of all observer mode) aren't done properly. Like options to record or a pause/fast forward button. And yes, the published "community summary" might work for PvP (unless it is almost empty every time of course), but for PvE there are just too many opinions. So too many people upset that their thing isn't on the list. And people getting upset because their thing has been on the list for 5 months and still isn't in the game.

JR, I might be putting the cart before the horses, you are doing a 'what if'. What if PvP would have gotten more attention? Would people still have gotten bored of the stale metagame then? Would the PvE game still bring in the profit it has done? Maybe, but impossible to be sure. The lack of attention hasn't helped. But that damage has been done over the years. My point was made from the actual situation. Not the situation that might have been.

JR · Apr 03, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

JR, I might be putting the cart before the horses, you are doing a 'what if'. What if PvP would have gotten more attention? Would people still have gotten bored of the stale metagame then? Would the PvE game still bring in the profit it has done? Maybe, but impossible to be sure. The lack of attention hasn't helped. But that damage has been done over the years. My point was made from the actual situation. Not the situation that might have been.

Shrug. The core of your point was flawed anyway, due to the fact that skill balances matter for PvP and not PvE - and therefore there is no conflict of interest for a CM to present them to the developers as notable issues.

Riotgear · Apr 03, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I mean they were done because of user feedback, but (most of all observer mode) aren't done properly. Like options to record or a pause/fast forward button.

I wouldn't say those are practical suggestions, replays as-is are done primarily using existing systems, which is why replays start on their own rather than starting when you "join" them.

Quote:

And yes, the published "community summary" might work for PvP (unless it is almost empty every time of course), but for PvE there are just too many opinions.

All it does is show what the relations staff plans to pass on to the developers.

Kyp Jade · Apr 03, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

for PvE, the only thing that should matter is 'this' area is not completable due to 'these' monsters being too hard.

Other than that, PvE skill balances should never, ever, EVER exist.

Div · Apr 04, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

To be very brief: Their job is to translate concerns from the community to the developers.

And she did that just fine. She translated concerns from the vast PvE majority to the devs.

Quote:

A large chunk of that, in a game like Guild Wars, is skill balance.

That's what you think. I can safely say 99% of the GW community think you're wrong. Granted, they're the casual clueless player, but I'd still say given the proportions of people who dislike skill balance vs people who do, ignoring the minority and giving the majority's opinion isn't necessarily wrong for that type of job. Maybe when there was a larger proportion of "intelligent" players around, Gaile should've conveyed some of those ideas, but frankly as it stands for the past year (while you haven't been playing the game) the population that cares about skill balance is too insignificant.

If you were one of the leaders involved in world issues, and every country in the world besides Andorra suggests one thing, would you seriously consider Andorra's viewpoint, even if they provide a good argument? If you answer yes, good luck keeping that leadership position, since you'll be ousted or ridiculed by pretty much the entire world.

C2K · Apr 04, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Holy flaming nut do you mean that Izzy just might have to read the forums himself?

Who said Izzy would read the forums? I think thats more of an assumption

Melody Cross · Apr 04, 2008, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I'm apathetic towards the whole thing, tbh.