Curse

C2K · Apr 17, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

SC and WC3 don't have a monthly fee either. And they have still have production costs in battle.net. I think saying GW is just an MMO is a bad excuse for the pathetic way Anet handled the PvP portion of their game.

Actually it isn't a bad excuse. MMOs normally don't have the quality pvp that Guild Wars offers. Because of this, groups like Gaming World Cup( think thats what they are) or one of the other third party major event holders that usually host the big FPS and RTS tournaments haven't been involved. Warcraft 3 and Starcraft had(and still have to my knowledge) 3rd party organizers that Blizzard endorsed that ran tournaments. I'm not sure how Anet ran the two world championships 2 years ago, but its possible NCsoft or Anet paid some of the bill along with their sponsors.

DreamWind · Apr 17, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Just because there is nothing close to it on the mmorpg-market doesn't make it good. It makes it better then the rest. Since the rest is horrible, it isn't that strange to call GW's PvP decent at best. It could have been good, but I don't think it ever was. Even the praised time just before Factions wasn't that good as people think at times.

I guess its just a matter of opinion then. I know personally that I wouldn't be playing (or posting here) if Guild Wars PvP didn't offer something I think is special. I got bored off my ass of PvE years ago, and the good PvP is the only thing that keeps me anywhere near this game or these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Also WoW PvP is horrible now. But Blizzard is learning fast. If they continue improving it, they will be better then GW soon enough. Since GW's PvP hasn't improved since launch. I think that is the biggest mistake Anet made. They were that busy fixing it that they forgot to improve it.

When WoW PvP gets better than GW PvP, that will be the day we all admit that Anet doesn't know how to run a competitive game and Blizzard does, because Guild Wars was clearly the superior PvP product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

MMOs normally don't have the quality pvp that Guild Wars offers. Because of this, groups like Gaming World Cup( think thats what they are) or one of the other third party major event holders that usually host the big FPS and RTS tournaments haven't been involved. Warcraft 3 and Starcraft had(and still have to my knowledge) 3rd party organizers that Blizzard endorsed that ran tournaments. I'm not sure how Anet ran the two world championships 2 years ago, but its possible NCsoft or Anet paid some of the bill along with their sponsors.

Just because Guild Wars is basically first MMO ever with quality PvP doesn't mean it should be thrown out by default. Anet could have gotten the sponsers, the third parties, put in the support, etc etc to make it work. To me Anet not putting in much effort anymore on the competitive front (especially in comparison to Blizzard, their main competitor) is a failure.

Billiard · Apr 17, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

As I said last year, and has been mentioned in this thread already, GW has been a proof of concept test for a new model. As such there was virtually no money put into marketing the product, and yet it still flourished rather well. Guild Wars is 3 years old and the first generation. WoW is the 5th or 6th or 7th iteration for Blizzard, with the first one being started some 15 years ago.

Of course ANet didn't know what they had, nor what to do with it, fully. But if you look at all the changes they have made over time, it does suggest they have learned a lot, and the 2nd generation of the game should be an order of magnitude better than the first. Their dev team is much, much larger. They actually have marketing people in house. And they more than likely have much better backing from NCSoft as they move forward. GW2 is going to be designed not as a WoW clone, but as a WoW killer. WoW has become a mainstream product and brand with very broad appeal, even though it has numerous failings. GW2 is going to ride on their coat tails, while at the same time addressing some of the things that plague the game. Of this I am very confident.

WoW currently has some 10 million subscribers now, but in it's first iteration I am betting no more than a couple hundred thousand people actually bought and played Warcraft. As a first iteration GW has done extremely well - beyond probably what people expected. That kind of success in this kind of market should generate a huge influx of capital.

Anyway I have been saying this for a long time. Only time will tell if I am correct.

Iotan · Apr 17, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

As I said last year, and has been mentioned in this thread already, GW has been a proof of concept test for a new model. As such there was virtually no money put into marketing the product, and yet it still flourished rather well. Guild Wars is 3 years old and the first generation. WoW is the 5th or 6th or 7th iteration for Blizzard, with the first one being started some 15 years ago.

I think this is important to realize, but at the same time I still question what is going on with the game now. It's remarkable that GW was created from scratch, but why has it been so difficult to implement the lessons learned? I worry about things like PR and skill updates, since it seems to be universally acknowledged that the game lacks in these areas. A larger dev team should help, but I'd like to see them get their feet wet by tinkering with GW1.

Also, I think the prize scheme for GvG has been pretty awful since the it's inception. Prizes should reward the player but should also foster growth in the PvP community. Real world prizes don't do this, since people who watch matches/hear about who wins is a very small portion of the GW population, and the people who contend for these prizes is smaller still.

What I want to see is in-game recognition. Not just a stupid trophy in a marginal outpost. I want my character to glow. I want to be able to kill people in towns (a la grench.) I want RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stars to fly out of my hands and special music to play when I enter an outpost. PvP has become all about epeen (why else use PvE chars?) so why not go all out. Minipets are a small step in this direction, but aren't really enough to draw in new players. Yes you may lose some guilds that compete only for the real-world prizes, but there are only something like 20 guilds at most who have a legitimate shot in the tourneys. And from what I can tell, most of these players are looking more for recognition, not dollar signs.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

It's remarkable that GW was created from scratch, but why has it been so difficult to implement the lessons learned?

This is my biggest concern when it comes to Anet, and is exactly the reason I am truly not expecting a lot from GW2. I honestly believe that when it comes to Guild Wars PvP, it will never be again as good as it used to be. PvE took over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

Yes you may lose some guilds that compete only for the real-world prizes, but there are only something like 20 guilds at most who have a legitimate shot in the tourneys. And from what I can tell, most of these players are looking more for recognition, not dollar signs.

Recognition is never going to come from an automated tournament. It came from being called a champion.