Curse

Teh Jace · Apr 22, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I have been playing more HA than TA recently but yeah nawazaki is a menace

100% abuser of gay skillbars.

It might sound funny but playing nec might be very difficult - u have to be like quatro core CPU

And pyth is one of the best, no doubt.

I like the balanced setup with melandru D/W cuz its autowin vs gay (dual) Me/N (like 50% of builds u meet in TA) and it has no problems with beating balanced with warr as well. But pepe keeps saying he's the best derv in da game so I'm not allowed to run it QQ (I don't have many TA buddies cuz I flame too much). Also it's gut vs dual monk shit cuz in order to kill something sins have to ball up which my scythe rly appreciates.

WoD is a very powerful skill but ppl are just too bad to take advantage of it. All I hear is rank means nothing, WoD is easy to beat, dual SoM is a joke but I have never fought u guys in a decent battle (except squall who keeps blaming us from exploting WoD n FF hax).

Ask pyth to join ur grp and u will see how bad WoD is.

Barkeep · Apr 22, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Don't forget June.

I may not always agree with you on certain stuff, but you are 100% right here. You meet loads of people who probably played against glad or mina, lost to them, then decided to run the same build and fail with it.

You cannot use these people as an example why WoD is easy to beat. A skill is as good as the best person who uses it. And the way it is now, a good WoD necro can effectively shut-down a monk, control conditions and shut-down melees at the same time. Of course good play deserves to have its rewards, but this is a bit over the top.

Seraphim of Chaos · Apr 22, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

Don't forget June.

I may not always agree with you on certain stuff, but you are 100% right here. You meet loads of people who probably played against glad or mina, lost to them, then decided to run the same build and fail with it.

You cannot use these people as an example why WoD is easy to beat. A skill is as good as the best person who uses it. And the way it is now, a good WoD necro can effectively shut-down a monk, control conditions and shut-down melees at the same time. Of course good play deserves to have its rewards, but this is a bit over the top.

I can't say that a player that can use WoD necessarily means good player...

Barkeep · Apr 22, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

True, but I'm not sure why you are saying this to me..

Bli!ng · Apr 22, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

I have been playing more HA than TA recently but yeah nawazaki is a menace

100% abuser of gay skillbars.

It might sound funny but playing nec might be very difficult - u have to be like quatro core CPU

And pyth is one of the best, no doubt.

I like the balanced setup with melandru D/W cuz its autowin vs gay (dual) Me/N (like 50% of builds u meet in TA) and it has no problems with beating balanced with warr as well. But pepe keeps saying he's the best derv in da game so I'm not allowed to run it QQ (I don't have many TA buddies cuz I flame too much). Also it's gut vs dual monk shit cuz in order to kill something sins have to ball up which my scythe rly appreciates.

WoD is a very powerful skill but ppl are just too bad to take advantage of it. All I hear is rank means nothing, WoD is easy to beat, dual SoM is a joke but I have never fought u guys in a decent battle (except squall who keeps blaming us from exploting WoD n FF hax).

Ask pyth to join ur grp and u will see how bad WoD is.

pyth is the best*

pepto says hes the best at everything why bother about him?

Wod is pro and dont need nerf.

Zena Starlight · Apr 23, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

It might sound funny but playing nec might be very difficult - u have to be like quatro core CPU

And pyth is one of the best, no doubt.

QFT. Tried playing a WoD necro over the weekend and it was pretty hard multi-tasking everything. Hexes, FF, WoD. What a handful!

None the less, we still won quite a bit before I had to go

Sister Rosette · Apr 23, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

[skill]Signet of Humility[/skill][skill]Mantra of Signets[/skill][skill]Keystone Signet[/skill]

Why wait for your opponent to even cast it?

Patrick Smit · Apr 23, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

because SoM has a shorter activation time than mentioned there, it is like 0.75 seconds reduced to about 0.5 or less using Fast Casting. Furthermore he coulkd fake it, make u miss d-shot or whatever, or a good prot puts on guardian at that time.

urania · Apr 23, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

I like the balanced setup with melandru D/W cuz its autowin vs gay (dual) Me/N (like 50% of builds u meet in TA) and it has no problems with beating balanced with warr as well. But pepe keeps saying he's the best derv in da game so I'm not allowed to run it QQ (I don't have many TA buddies cuz I flame too much). Also it's gut vs dual monk shit cuz in order to kill something sins have to ball up which my scythe rly appreciates.

WoD is a very powerful skill but ppl are just too bad to take advantage of it. All I hear is rank means nothing, WoD is easy to beat, dual SoM is a joke but I have never fought u guys in a decent battle (except squall who keeps blaming us from exploting WoD n FF hax).

to be more exact, he calls ur derv a joke and doesnt expect to make more than 15 wins with it.
(if YOU flame too much, than pepe would win a gold medal if flaming was an olympic discipline)
but yeah, i still remember how funny it was the last time i came across his derv =P. It was months ago though ^^.

as far as wod, ff, scythe sins, SoM are concerned...like plenty of other broken things in TA, it wil never get fixed.
neverthelesss...bring back CE necros =(!

Barkeep · Apr 23, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Never get fixed eh?

I've seen a lot of guilds running a balth pendulum smiter, FF/Plague signet necro + melee pressure.

I have a feeling izzy may have a closer look at those skills after the mAT.

urania · Apr 23, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

Never get fixed eh?

I've seen a lot of guilds running a balth pendulum smiter, FF/Plague signet necro + melee pressure.

I have a feeling izzy may have a closer look at those skills after the mAT.

I have doubts there will be sth like an after-mAT skill balance.

Also, have any guilds complained about those 3 skills yet?

The problem is that izzy, for example, knows about the 2 monk builds in TA, but apparently doesnt find them overpowered at all. I'm not even sure if he has fixed spotless spell bugs yet.
And Rok was d shotting SoM's too well when izzy played with us, so he wont fix that one for sure, since in his opinion there isnt anything that would need a fix to start with, IF you have a good ranger.
But at that time there was no dual SoM's yet.

Patrick Smit · Apr 23, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

It just means that your (or opposing?) SoM mesmer was very predictable. Technically it should be impossible/near extremely hard to twitch SoM on a mesmer using Dshot or whatever interupt. Ping, activation time, and ofcourse reaction time should make it so. So the opposing ranger was just very good in predicting the bahavior of your mesmer, i.e. he didn't put in fakes or delays of activation once he ran up to his target.

Anyways, I agree that SoM is just a shit skill that should have recharge of 20-30 (always leaving a small gap when not stanced) and an activation time of 1 second. I don't care whether it ether renewals the elite, thats fine by me.

Barkeep · Apr 23, 2008, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Yes, Izzy fixed spotless.

After playing the HC izzy has nerfed/fixed two skills on the bar. That's a pretty extreme action and it does show that izzy does not only care about GvG but also listens to the TA community.. a bit..

It's just a matter of time before people in GvG will complain about FF.

The smiters are not really overpowered in my opinion. They finally found a purpose and im happy to see they are back in pvp. The only reason smiteway is still alive is because of wounding strike. Nerf that skill and smiteway in TA will be dead.

And you just need to invite izzy to TA again and tell rok to miss all SoMs on purpose. kthx?

urania · Apr 23, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

The smiters are not really overpowered in my opinion. They finally found a purpose and im happy to see they are back in pvp. The only reason smiteway is still alive is because of wounding strike. Nerf that skill and smiteway in TA will be dead.

And you just need to invite izzy to TA again and tell rok to miss all SoMs on purpose. kthx?

I find the fact that you basicaly have an unblockable >100 damage train on yourself or one of your teammates, against which you cannot prot, but merely make red bars go up and even that not for long, pretty gay. its like a prenerf avatar of grenth combined with melandru's deep wound spamming (with the great addition of bleeding and cripple, yay).

Vd is in a dormant state atm as far as TA is concerned, but perhaps he'd come if someone else would ask him, too.

urania · Apr 24, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

karla stop trolling this topic alrdy

Balanced = diversity of characters. U have been running WoD for long time... just to remind u.
If u wanna keep talking about WoD there is alrdy a post regarding this topic.

im giving you feedback on ur topic and commenting on it so that the less exp ppl as well as the rest can see faults it has.

at sab, I ran WoD too, but unlike jace and co. (and you :P) i ALWAYS preferred CE over it, but it just wasnt viewable anymore, mainly due to 2 monk teams. I would happily see wod being reverted to what it was. Same applies for ff, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

I'm not izzy. He's responsible for this form of 'balanced' not me. The necro is a problem and we all know that. But FF is a must vs nawazakiway. I'm not a creator of this template... pepe is

I don't play necro at all but this one is the most effective one I know for this setup.

And I would rather meet 10x this than 10x nawazakiway in a row.

I would rather meet neither.
You may not be izzy, but being a regular player you do have a role in creating the meta and promoting wod necs with ff under pretension its "balanced" is a load of bullshit, even if its very efficient and strong. The touch button mash necros were very efficient and strong too and would very likely steam roll nawazaki and all the rest as well, but that doesnt mean they were balanced or "good" in terms of skillful playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

Ranger knows his monk has spotless mind so he doesn't have to camp nec that often (also take a look at the nec bar - only 2 hexes and WoD). This means ranger will prolly have more time for ur warrior than ever before.
Ofc I'm not saying u are not allowed to unload on contact that would be silly.

But then the ranger doesnt need to camp the monk that often either, u have WoD after all, no? *roll eyes*. That means u're basicaly there only to interrupt sin chains (if shield bash proves a shut down not efficient enough) and the ress sigs along with random deb shots on monks.

Not to mention whats the point of having spotless mind if you're promoting necs with only 2 hexes? Is maintaining 2 veils up too hard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

If u wanna play oldschool necro, swap WoD for CE, enfeeble for grasping earth and FF for defile defense. It will still work ok but u might have problems vs certain types of builds.

yeah, vs a mirror with wod nec and vs 2 monks. Glad to see how u left part in the bold font undefined.

Lorekeeper · Apr 24, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

I agree with Karla here, the OP opened with statements about being a guide for TA players who are sick with lame gimmicks in TA and who want to run something ''balanced''. It says, if you want to run something that is not lame or gimmicky run this...

The OP then follows to list templates such as the foul feast WoD nec as a build he presents to players as part of a ''balanced'' template that arent lame or gimmicky.

In my opinion, the foul feast wail necro template is just as lame as the other templates being run in TA at the moment, like the A/D and Mes/Nec templates. To be quite frank theres little that separates ''balanced'' teams running SoM mesmers and WoD necros... yet the OP seems to have prejudice against the SoM builds in favour of the WoD necros. SoM mesmers are no more lame than the WoD templates, the only reason the OP favours the latter is because its far more effective and less easy to shutdown.

The only bit of legitimacy SoM and WoD teams might have over other builds is the warrior, ranger and WoH monk in the team. That might be what makes them ''balanced'' teams.

But i think the use of the term ''balanced'' is thrown around without people really understanding what they mean by it.

Foul feast WoD necs are ''imbalanced'' 4vs4 templates that ''balanced'' teams are forced to run to compete against all the other ''imbalanced'' 4vs4 templates that ''non-balanced'' teams are running in TA.

Just because you are running a ''balanced'' team build doesnt mean your skill bars dont include some ''imbalanced'' skills.

So basically, the OP is saying that its better to choose the lesser of two evils and run a balanced build which uses only 1 lame gimmicky template, than run a non-balanced build which is full of lame gimmicky templates.

Its practically impossible to compete in TA without running at least 1 lame imbalanced bar in your team.

Barkeep · Apr 24, 2008, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Well, in order to play balanced you need "balanced skills". Skills that are flexible in it's use. That can aid you in your play both offensively as well as defensively.

Interrupts / Snares / KDs / Plague Touch

These are all examples of skills/abilities that can be used eitehr defensively or offensively.

These skills are a must in balanced builds. Without these you have a straightforward gank-and-hope-not-to-be-ganked-before-you-crack game. So the skills you use do have something to do with playing balanced.

Overpowered skills do not. I like to use LoD as an example. It used to be clearly overpowered back in the days. However, it was also a skill that was in (nearly) every balanced monk backline at that point. So having overpowered in ur build doesnt mean you dont play balanced.

I would not want to present this builds as the balanced of 2008 though. That's kind of narrow-minded. I'm sure there will be other balanced builds that will be just as effective..

Teh Jace · Apr 24, 2008, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Enfeeble, FF and WoD seem to be ur problem right?

Did u read my post? The only cond removal in this build is mend touch?
Maybe it's time to start using brain? This weakness is so obvious.

Maybe it's time to start spamming debilitating shot on necro? Cuz it rly hurts him? Do u rly think necro can spam enfeeble on recharge while under deb spam? Assuming u run NONLAME necro (as u guys say) without enfeeble ur only condition should be poision (apply will be disabled most of the time vs gut ranger anyway) and sometimes dw and/or weakness if u run dev hammer. How can this even be energy management for an opposing necro?

How is FF imba in a mirror match? Yes maybe it's imba if u play with a retarded ranger who can't dshot 1s plague sending (we don't even run ps).

WoD? This skill is a threat only if spammed on monk 24/7. Maybe pressure necro more so he can't use this on recharge cuz of saccing?

It's time to change ur tactics and maybe time to change ppl who u play with. We have adapted to indentity and now we rarely lose. Cuz we know how to fight it.

I say playing this necro takes skill. I also know FF ruins any form of cond pressure (so u like playing packhunters right? dont even start with IT RUINS CLASH).

I rly don't care if u call this nec template gay or not. I alrdy told you how to counter it and it's rly not that hard.

As for the 'the balanced of 2008'... I never know how to name my topics

the_deSKtructor · Apr 24, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep

Well, in order to play balanced you need "balanced skills". Skills that are flexible in it's use. That can aid you in your play both offensively as well as defensively.

Interrupts / Snares / KDs / Plague Touch

These are all examples of skills/abilities that can be used eitehr defensively or offensively.

These skills are a must in balanced builds. Without these you have a straightforward gank-and-hope-not-to-be-ganked-before-you-crack game. So the skills you use do have something to do with playing balanced.

Overpowered skills do not. I like to use LoD as an example. It used to be clearly overpowered back in the days. However, it was also a skill that was in (nearly) every balanced monk backline at that point. So having overpowered in ur build doesnt mean you dont play balanced.

I would not want to present this builds as the balanced of 2008 though. That's kind of narrow-minded. I'm sure there will be other balanced builds that will be just as effective..

Skills that are flexible in it's use. WoD would be balanced by this definition (you can shut down their defense aswell offense with it) so is Foul Fest (u can decide to remove the conditions in order to help your monk or use it on your frontline to clean them from stuff like blind, crippled or weakness).

Both of those 2 skills are good but overpowered. Both of them are way too spammable. Fixing Foul Fest should be quite easy (limit the energy gain and maybe limit the use to necros primaries), Wail of Doom is imo a bit more problematic. Working just on the recharge will make it ok when used on casters while making it almost useless to stop meeles.

I can't see the Me/N template to be any close to that. Most of the skill on that bar are one-dimensional, so if i have to pick one of those 2 bars I'd take WoD (and you are kinda forced to do so due to the new over-powered gimmicks).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

Enfeeble, FF and WoD seem to be ur problem right?

Did u read my post? The only cond removal in this build is mend touch?
Maybe it's time to start using brain? This weakness is so obvious.

Maybe it's time to start spamming debilitating shot on necro? Cuz it rly hurts him? Do u rly think necro can spam enfeeble on recharge while under deb spam? Assuming u run NONLAME necro (as u guys say) without enfeeble ur only condition should be poision (apply will be disabled most of the time vs gut ranger anyway) and sometimes dw and/or weakness if u run dev hammer. How can this even be energy management for an opposing necro?

Remember about set swapping....

urania · Apr 24, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

i have a vision of how ta should be (well, how it basically was before there even was sth like glad points till about 1 year ago) and will express my opinion of wanna-be balance players.

anyhow, lorekeeper summed up the whole matter fairly well.

jace, to be frank with you, often you can throw out utter bullshit, let me give you just an example:
you say necros can get hurt badly by deb shot spam, but that would merely mean the nec sucks for not using his low set when they notice the deb shot animation or predict it will be used on them, which would basicaly mean the nec u play with either fails hard or u're giving example of a nub nec that is irrelevant anyway.
basicaly, when playing wod nec with ff u just need to be good at multitasking spam, thats about it.
wod and ff are spells that may suit the term "balance", but they're in no way balanced out in relation to other possibilities. but hey, im just repeating what cat and lorekeeper already said.

last but not least, interesting to see how you (referring to your sweet team, because you had to use "we adapted to" in part of ur post) only managed to success with such a "balanced" build =P. Even better is that when U lose u're still TEH SHIT in ta, but when others lose to you they're labeled as being utter crap. Get an e peen complex therapy and take pepe and powers with you, while you're at it.