Curse

shoogi · Apr 20, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

The thing I don't get is, why did Anet give PvE skills (ursanway) if not to prevent anti-skillbalance QQing?

About the update, I don't like it. If devs think that violently nerfing all passive defense means addressing the most immediate issues with guild battles, then they have a problem.

Lorekeeper · Apr 20, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

The thing I don't get is, why did Anet give PvE skills (ursanway) if not to prevent anti-skillbalance QQing?

About the update, I don't like it. If devs think that violently nerfing all passive defense means addressing the most immediate issues with guild battles, then they have a problem.

After listening to Izzy on that radio show during the rawr cup, its seems as though this update was specifically aimed at the builds seen in the march MaT final between [StS] and [rawr] and the rawr cup final between dR and [rawr]. Its seems like Izzy's attempt to inject some fun into finals as a result of various comments that they were the most ''boring'' finals ever. Perhaps if people blew up more while running 'rawr' balanced they might be more inclined to run less stand anchored builds or you wont see matches so easily stalled until VoD (wont teams just play even more defensively?). I always thought of defense as a combination of playstyle and build style... nerf defensive builds but teams can still adopt defensive styles of play like turtling until VoD.

Not sure why the update is temporary though. Its almost as if Anet is saying ''This final real prize GvG tournament is the last one that truly matters for PvP, after that we expect the PvP scene to diminish somewhat due to the switch to in-game prizes. Therefore we feel it is less necessary to continue balancing the game for PvP and we feel the PvE side of the game will benefit greatly from this.''

Izzy also made comments on the show alluding to Anets decision to focus less of its resources of GW 1 PvP, as their development cycle of GW 2 continues to progress and draw more of their time and effort.

You put 2 + 2 together...

This is how i interpret the wiki comments, because i cannot see how they could continue to balance the PvP game without affecting PvE in any way. They could only do this if they were to only make changes to PvP mechanics like NPC numbers or VoD damage etc. Any kind of actual skill change has an impact on PvE, whether its a popular PvE skill or not, someone out there might be using it.

Furthermore, even by them announcing that they will be balancing in this way, represents a complete turn around for them in terms of their skill balance policy. Whether its achievable or not is an obstacle for them to overcome but the apparent shift in attitude is telling. PvP balance in the past has always had a significant impact on PvE, the limit to minion amounts and soul reaping nerf are two among a long list of changes to that effect (among others like Protective bond, SoA, Spirit bond, etc etc). It seems very strange and quite patronising for Anet to suddenly acknowledge this at such a late stage in the game, especially when you consider the history of complaints made over past skill changes. I can only conclude that they are dropping their support for PvP and doing what PvE players have hoped for since the start, no more balance done because of PvP. Justification being that the PvE population will remain somewhat active even as we approach the release of GW 2, whereas the PvP population will certainly begin to twindle.

Basically I cant even see how they can achieve their new attitude unless they do either of the following.

1) Announce a final state of skill balance for the game and stop making any meaningful PvP balance updates because they are switching towards much more of an automated PvP support after April rather than a hands on one and will only consider changes if there are broken/bugged skills.
2) Make nerfs only to skills used in PvP that see rare usage in PvE (How many skills is that? And how many skills used alot in PvP but not in PvE require balancing?) Or assuming a good state of balance, more buffs like what we saw done to Foul feast.
3) Separate PvP and PvE skills entirely and treat them individually because if they ever need to balance PvP after April they will never be able to make changes that dont impact PvE without doing this.

I personally considered game balance to be in a pretty good state before this update, and even perhaps after it (though i think aegis should not be 15e). So maybe option 1) is most likely.

Option 2) is an interesting one and might help to prolong interest in PvP, with a monthly injection of buffed skills... problem is, buffing skills can always create imbalances which will require reverts to buffs and possible nerfs.

Option 3) well Anet have taken pains to tell us how this is not possible for GW. But in another drastic turn around will they have finally figurted out an easy way to do it?

Time will tell what these comments on wiki really mean.

la_cabra_de_vida · Apr 20, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I think this ensign quote for the most part still applies:

"Any approach to dealing with passive defense cannot focus on exclusively on the defenses themselves. Key to getting out of this mess is rebalancing the 'red bars go down' and the 'red bars go up' aspects of the game; the ridiculous spike damage that physicals can put out needs to be toned down, and healing needs realistic alternatives to reduce dependence on LoD. Without doing that, nerfs to passive defenses will only require teams to pack even more of it into their builds to survive, while even further cementing overwhelming physical damage as the driving force of the metagame."

erk · Apr 20, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

If you can explain how Diversion is similar to Dshot in any way except they can add recharge to a skill, then you have a point. And besides, it isn't a problem skill anyway. Neither did I see a new focus on energy denial yet.

Didn't you notice the buffs to Chaos Storm, Energy Surge, Energy Burn? Yes the focus was on energy denial. As I said in my previous post I think that a 50sec +normal recharge skill lockout is too long, it should be half that, it's way overpowered compared to other disable skills.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Disa...uick_reference

makosi · Apr 20, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Didn't you notice the buffs to Chaos Storm, Energy Surge, Energy Burn? Yes the focus was on energy denial. As I said in my previous post I think that a 50sec +normal recharge skill lockout is too long, it should be half that, it's way overpowered compared to other disable skills.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Disa...uick_reference

I agree that the disabling time of Diversion is a bit too long. The difference between Diversion and most other disables is that Diversion gives the hexed foe a choice - cast or don't cast. The bulk of the other disabling skills are whack-a-mole interrupts, e.g. Megabane Shot, Distracting Shit (errors intended) and Power Lock.

Diversion deserves some extra credibility for it's 3s casting time and it's 'optional' effect. Just not an enitre minute disable...

JR · Apr 20, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I agree that the disabling time of Diversion is a bit too long. The difference between Diversion and most other disables is that Diversion gives the hexed foe a choice - cast or don't cast. The bulk of the other disabling skills are whack-a-mole interrupts, e.g. Megabane Shot, Distracting Shit (errors intended) and Power Lock.

Diversion deserves some extra credibility for it's 3s casting time and it's 'optional' effect. Just not an enitre minute disable...

The Diversions that actually matter are the ones that land mid cast, without enough time to cancel. It is basically 60% luck and 40% timing, with an effect that is way out of proportion with that. It should have had the disable reduced a long time ago.

Tearz1993 · Apr 20, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

But Diversion is so much fun...

*Sigh* oh well

I D E L E T E D I · Apr 21, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

If Diversion gets nerfed, it would be the final straw in removing Mesmers from the game. IMO Diversion is the key skill that has kept Mesmers in todays meta

TrippieHippie89 · Apr 21, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

i dont quite agree with you, deleted...if diversion was nerfed out of the game im sure you would still see mesmers on most midlines, while they probably wouldnt be the standard e-surge bars that are in todays meta, i think they may shift more towards heavier e-denial(price of pride, shit like that)

either that, or e-surge would be completely replaced by power-block mesmers....either way i think they'd still keep their spot as mindliners

and if diversion did get nerfed, theres also no saying something else would get buffed for mesmers

Guillaume De Sonoma · Apr 21, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

If Diversion gets nerfed, it would be the final straw in removing Mesmers from the game. IMO Diversion is the key skill that has kept Mesmers in todays meta

For a long time mesmers didn't run diversion. Mesmers would still see play without diversion.

Glyph of Renewal
Shame
Power Leak
Energy Burn
Resurrection Signet
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Shatter Enchantment

If you removed diversion I think Signet of Humility and edenial would become much more common. The bar I posted is pretty heavy on edenial with GoR Shame, Power Leak, and Eburn.

erk · Apr 21, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

If Diversion gets nerfed, it would be the final straw in removing Mesmers from the game. IMO Diversion is the key skill that has kept Mesmers in todays meta

I don't think you would want to nerf Diversion out of the game, it's a good tool. It's just the effect is out of proportion with other disable skills, that's why you see it on almost every Mesmer bar more than any other skill, I honestly think it's just slipped through the cracks unquestioned for a long time. As JR pointed out, it's not the diversions you can stand back and wait out that hurt, it's the mid cast ones you can't escape in time that are killers! There are so many options for Mesmers nowadays, that spamming Diversion on recharge should probably not be such a priority as it was in the past.

Div · Apr 21, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I wouldn't mind diversion being 1s cast and ~10..25s disable or something. That way, it makes the skill much stronger on a mesmer with good predictive power. As it is right now, most mesmers are casting it on 40/40 sets anyway hoping to avoid getting pleaked and to catch an important skill by luck. If mesmers have to rely on FC sets to get off their skill, there's no way they can be timing for enemy skills.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Apr 21, 2008, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I wouldn't mind diversion being 1s cast and ~10..25s disable or something. That way, it makes the skill much stronger on a mesmer with good predictive power. As it is right now, most mesmers are casting it on 40/40 sets anyway hoping to avoid getting pleaked and to catch an important skill by luck. If mesmers have to rely on FC sets to get off their skill, there's no way they can be timing for enemy skills.

I like that idea, it makes it seem like blackout and allowing for short power plays. I also like how you could cast through diversion that way in a dire situation without horrible side affects.

I D E L E T E D I · Apr 21, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

For a long time mesmers didn't run diversion. Mesmers would still see play without diversion.

Glyph of Renewal
Shame
Power Leak
Energy Burn
Resurrection Signet
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Shatter Enchantment

If you removed diversion I think Signet of Humility and edenial would become much more common. The bar I posted is pretty heavy on edenial with GoR Shame, Power Leak, and Eburn.

Edenial is easier to play against than the luck of the draw Diversion Spam.
If Diversion DID get nerfed into Oblivion, Magebane Rangers would be a much better choice imho. Although that being said, it would not make the game any better, because most magebane rangers spam their interrupts anyway.

Patrick Smit · Apr 21, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I wouldn't mind diversion being 1s cast and ~10..25s disable or something. That way, it makes the skill much stronger on a mesmer with good predictive power. As it is right now, most mesmers are casting it on 40/40 sets anyway hoping to avoid getting pleaked and to catch an important skill by luck. If mesmers have to rely on FC sets to get off their skill, there's no way they can be timing for enemy skills.

I like the idea at one side, but from another angle i don't. It becomes liek P-leak except it can be used on skills as well, making it more powerfull, but the selection of skills it can be used on becomes more narrow as well, as the recharge of the skill itself that was being disabled isn't added as far as i recall to the disable time by diversion.

However changing the cast time would make it more handable like a powerleak for skills, more tactical, and less practical to pressure people in taking other priorities (i.e. remove diversion, or sacrifice a less important skill for a bit)

obsidian ectoplasm · Apr 21, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Warrior

* Disarm: decreased time that attack skills are disabled to 0..3 seconds; increased recharge to 20.

skills disabled for 0-3 secs....thats BS

Patrick Smit · Apr 21, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

No, Divinus Stella is correct:

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Disarm

Or maybe I didnt understand the expression of your bad mood by that nerf?

Cass · Apr 21, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsidian ectoplasm

skills disabled for 0-3 secs....thats BS

Doesn't really matter. It was used for its 'lol now you have no adrenalin' effect on low recharge. Now that the recharge is increased, it's much less effective.

As usual, the natural tendency to hate on mesmer skills has re-emerged. After the most recent victory of this camp, namely the nerf to power leak, diversion has become the next target. Diversion scales very well with player skill, period. This goes for both the caster and its victim, by the way.

The thing that irritates me about this discussion is that diversion is one of the coolest skills/mechanics in the game. We are at the end of pvp balances and you want to meddle with this? Nerf stupid stuff first! For example, escape rangers with scythes, spike sins with scythes, thumpers, touchers, necro rit healers, nec spike, shockwave/shadowstepping, button-mash paragons... these are just some suggestions if you can't think of any lame shit currently seeing play.

Lorekeeper · Apr 21, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I guess just cos a few people want to change diversion doesnt mean everyone wants to

Im personally suprised why mesmers arent choosing to take powerlock as an alternative... alot of good mesmers can pleak WoH or RC at a twitch. 12s recharge and 12s disable. I know diversion is useful as cast denial on spikes... whereas plock would be more suited to pressure play but considering how many diversions get interrupted during a match (is it many?) wouldnt plock be much more reliable shutdown?

How often do you actually divert important skills during a match versus a good team? How often could you disable an important skill with plock for 12s?

Would the rare diverted skill be more useful to your team than a regular 12s disable?

Just food for thought.

Killed u man · Apr 21, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I guess just cos a few people want to change diversion doesnt mean everyone wants to

Im personally suprised why mesmers arent choosing to take powerlock as an alternative... alot of good mesmers can pleak WoH or RC at a twitch. 12s recharge and 12s disable. I know diversion is useful as cast denial on spikes... whereas plock would be more suited to pressure play but considering how many diversions get interrupted during a match (is it many?) wouldnt plock be much more reliable shutdown?

How often do you actually divert important skills during a match versus a good team? How often could you disable an important skill with plock for 12s?

Would the rare diverted skill be more useful to your team than a regular 12s disable?

Just food for thought.

PBlock is the better elite. Everyone knows it, disabling skills is an effect that's been highly effective since day 1 GW. (Teams can hold for 15 minutes against eachother, but the second a keyskill -LoD, WoH, ...- gets diverted/dshotted, it often is game over.)
Pblock does an insane job at that, because not only does it disable that keyskill (spell), it also does the trick for every other skill in that attribute line...
When you miss a pleak, that's fine, you can still E-surge him afterwards for some damage/e-denial.
When U miss a pdrain, that's alright, you can still GoE/Gale him afterwards.
However, when U miss an interrupt on Pblock, you're screwed for the next 20 seconds, aswell as the fact you just wasted 15 energy.

Also don't forget, MOST monks skills used in GvG are in fact 3/4, so it pretty much becomes ping wars. (Ye, we ALL know rangers can dshot keyskills, but ranged also have luxery to try some "lucky-shots". Miss dshot? No problem, you've lost 3 energy and 10 seconds later U can try again. A nice bonus here is that your target will have poison, no matter what

)
Bars in GvG are often also not so one-dimensional. Pblocked WoH? (IF you have good enough ping) No problem, he will most likely still have 4 prots skills and dismiss condition... You can apply this to pretty much every bar in GvG.

I'm pretty sure that IF you can guarantee the interrupt from Pblock (And Arcane Echo, because AE + PBlock =win) you are better of with PBlock.
Yet ping times and other factors simply make skills like E-Surge the better choice...

EDIT: Diversion is broken, no mater how long cast time is, no matter how much energy, a near-60 seconds disable is broken... Yet I'm not shouting out for a complete nerf, it wouldn't hurt the game to shorten disable to 30-ish max...

Whoops, I actually read, pBlock, doesn't matter, point still stands