Curse

P3pt0 1s @n @ddiction · Apr 05, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

This is What i witness while Playing in Professional Balanced TA team(g7-g9).

One would say that a professional team with the most experience can go in TA and just outplay everything.
Now with current Meta teams are not outplaying each other they are "Out Button Mashing" each other. You ask yourself but hey Balance teams dont button mash why do they have trouble? The Answer is simple they are gimmick teams
as the dictionary defines it as "A device or means in which to cheat, abuse or gain unfair advantage over a situation or game. Now i well describe the games played versus some gimmics in Ta. This is Based on Balanced and for Balanced.
(Point of View From War or Necro)
4.Shove spike/ShadowForm Spike (Semi-Gimmick)
I Would not take these to be very serious or ingame life treating but these are the type of groups that make you get off that phone call to focus.
When you see W/A 3x Mo/A your ranger checks his ping gives the ok the monk gets rl adren rush ........ The Ranger waiiiiitsss and on First spike attemp the rangers watches and sees shove and D Shot to the face.... it is not Over your monk heals up the smite skills that went thru.... Now The griefing begins
they run for bout 20-30 secs *(Balance Teams try to bring some kind of snare into meta grasping earth on necro is implemented) With my teams my ranger sucessfully d shots shove my war usualy bulls a monk and i WoD a MOnk cutting their spike by 60%.
CounTer: D Shot Shove Bash monks and hopefull get their Rc Monk down
4b.Shadow Form sins- Not much of these around but will be a grief feast when they do showup. All of their sins are echo shadowform with dancing dagger spike. Their is pretty much Notthing you can do to hurt them in begining unless you have Blackout, touch skill KD or some kind of aoe enchant removal. This is by far a very ineffective gimmick and if sin messes up his echo SF combo hes gonna die. The running and shadow form is basically wat sets this in minor Gimmic.
Counter: A Sin messing up SF combo, touch skills that inferee with their combo, Aoe Enchant removal
3.SWay Ta style- I Dont usualy have troubles with this but for those who do... AS we all know SWays main power is from Scythes ridiculous dps and their stance escape. Escape which Allows them to chase down things and gives them blockage. Weakness spam on the R/D's helps to erase their OMGWTF Damages, Defile spams help since they block alot. If your heavy melee your could just out pressure the monk if you happen to have wild blow you could pound the R/D.
Counter: Basic hex's,weakness and pressure
2.Signet of midnight Mesmers- This gimmick has been bringing up a bunch of problems on izzy's remark about just D shot it he should tell that to the glad 1's learning how to play ranger. Even Some Great rangers will have problems against a great mesmer. A SoM Mesmer uses touch skills in true but he does not always have to touch you. If a ranger does D shot the sig he MUST count in his head and be ready to do shot to face again which is a bit annoying. I Will now begin to explain what happens when a ranger cannot d shot the SoM. Maps play a big role in wheter a SoM will be dshoted to the face or not. If the Map is big theirs a greater chance because its easier to wacth the field, if it is a clustered map you can still d shot it but many bodies walking around can cause confusion. If a mesmer walks to a face and does not the ranger doin the rite thing will use do shot thinkin the mesmer will use the sig, he has now been faked and the mesmer can now etheir Fast cast a diversion to diversion the rangers mend touch or on the necro to diversion foul feast. if a mesmer happens to diversion a unexpecting necros Foul feast this can cause problems. Some ask him cant the monk just draw the blind? The answer is ..... The team slowy destroys itself by the frontline repeatedly ping " I Under The effects of Blindness" 26x the monk flips and cant decide wheter to remove the hex on him or the blind and now the necro is in panic wacthing his FF slowly recharge. So first thing is stay calm decide what you are gonna do now i suggest that every1 repostions themselves so the opposing mesmer has to get himself deeper to blind.
Counters-Distracting shot on Signet of midnight, Diversion on SoM, Humility Lock on SoM, any spell that stops signets.
2b.Dual Me/N with Packhunter- This Gimmick is not Mainstream But can still cause havoc. With 2 Me/N a ranger cannot shut the both down with constant diversion spams on Necro and Monk Frontline will have troubles getting their conditions Removed. This Build does not have direct Damage and is pressure so if u can stop the pressure with good purges and interupts you can stand chance. The Packhunters pet does pack a punch so putting anti melee or killing the pet is best option.
Counters: Good Interupts and contion removal, Killing The pet, Good Hex Removal.
1.Covenantway/DualMonk/Unskilledway-This is the major gimmick consisting of a HC monk, smiter and 2x Shattering Assulat and or Wounding Sweeep A/D. HC by itself can cover the heals condition removal and hex removal, along with the smitter it adds damage. ok so now we have monk doing damage and hc can wand for fun if he wanted. Now for the sins we have SA sin which is unblockable and removes enchants. The A/D with wounding strike has OMGWTF dps and has the complimentary deepwound now with bleeding (Thx Izzy) I will Now explain the steps my teams take vs this. We usualy have Hammer or axe with rend and WoD necro with rend. With dual rends we rend etheir both sins or 1 sin and rend spam HC. Our Ranger attempts to Dshot the sins stances and d shot the Smitter monk also d shot on dway kiss will be helpful. Most balanced teams have anti melee with hex and weakness but vs this blind on weakness on sins will be in vain because both sins usualy have assasins rememdy. The objective is to try to rend their remedy so condtions can slow them. With Your Ranger Deb shot spamming the HC he wont soam as much. i have seen that wail of doom necro are most effective now in balance.
And if u happen to have one WoD spams on HC is most effective. Rending the HC will also helpful so if his team is taking pressure he will spam spells without HC up. If you have a hammer war this will be helpful to try to lineback 1 of the sins also helps to KD lock a one of the monks if he doesnt have pendulum on him. Now for a balance Teams Monk he will have to be Very very brave we have seen that shield bash or return helps vs these sins stances will be useles vs these sins. Also ZB or WoH is still the best choice for balance or to fight against Dual Monk teams.Tip: It is Good for your war to carry 40/40 set to help rend spam. With these constant rends on sins and or HC Monk a Balanced Team Can defeat this epic Gimmick.
Counter:Rend Spams on Sins and or HC Monk, Constant weakness, Ranger interupting Sins Combo, Debillitating shot spam to denial the HC, Linebacking a Sin,Disrupting Dway kiss and Smitters 1-2 sec cast spells

I Have stayed strong with Balanced for All My Team Arena Days and have prevented many players from conforming to Lame.I Have realized that in Balance everyplayer must know what they are doing. Playing necro for a while i have dis proved that being Necro is easy. Being Necro is very Hard now that Gimmick is stomping. Being War is Very Hard that Gimmick is stomping. Being Ranger is very hard now that Gimmick is stomping. Being Mesmer is very hard now that Gimmick is stomping.Being Monk is very hard now that Gimmick is stomping. Playing Balanced you have to realize and except that its gonna be rough in their.

After making this thread and 2 weeks later i have realized that its no use
me stoping preventing the spread of gimmick doesnt help much Gw is clearly dying and the few balance players left just isnt showin. Gimmickers just are doing what it takes to get the points no matter what. The stuck up high glads that i use to play with dont take or even try to play with lower glads to teach them. So the lower glads take refuge into gimmicks. Its just a Game after all who does playing gimmick after u in real life some might say. Well its your own decision from here on out i quess to decide what to do in that game

Seraphim of Chaos · Apr 05, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I think the question is, "What is balanced?".

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Nice, but I feel like you are using more than 4 players in a team.

The Arching Healer · Apr 05, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

lets start with one sentence, I played against WM 3 days ago. And guess what what you where running?

-Shatter Sin
-Signet of Midnight Me/N
-Magebane Ranger
-HC Monk

Professional balanced team? Ye right!

Foe · Apr 05, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

tis true WM plays buildwars, im not sure what that has to do with Pepe or this thread though. When ever i see him ig hes running balanced. I really have no problem what so ever with any of the "gimmicks" of the last few months, win some lose some, w/e. Foul Feast is straight retarded though, dont get me wrong i love running it, love having one on my team while monking..but good god...LOL @CONDITIONS?. This combination is far more degenerate than the rest in my opinion. Good read though, interesting thread.

C2K · Apr 05, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

I think the question is, "What is balanced?".

Its hard to have a true "balanced" team in a small 4v4 game. The midline is almost non-existent, its pretty much only front and back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arching Healer

lets start with one sentence, I played against WM 3 days ago. And guess what what you where running?

-Shatter Sin
-Signet of Midnight Me/N
-Magebane Ranger
-HC Monk

Professional balanced team? Ye right!

WM never conformed to 1 build, and they never will. They play the with what meta presents to them.

Targuil · Apr 06, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Its hard to have a true "balanced" team in a small 4v4 game. The midline is almost non-existent, its pretty much only front and back.

I'd say it's Shock axe, Magebane, Anti melee necro and woh/zb monk. That can vary quite much though.

steel singer · Apr 06, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

WM never conformed to 1 build, and they never will. They play the with what meta presents to them.

Well, recently I've never seen WM run anything else than Me/N same as [KeYs] nevers runs without Me/N..

And Me/N is just retarted..
We(rank 2-3 glads) had to run Me/N in order to at least have a chance vs them..
And what happens then with us rank 2 glads? We hold out vs WM or KeYs for the full 8 minutes!!
Ok, we die like once and we loose, but isn't it retarted? That a rank 2 glad team can easily survive for so long vs a rank 8 glad team?

valence · Apr 06, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Arching Healer, as stupid as it sounds the build as a whole does everything what I would expect from a balanced build. The build can adapt to nearly any situation / any build in ta.

yum · Apr 06, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

The end of the build is balanced, true.

But the mean is not. And for ppl who play TA for fun of it (aka the mean), it is not a balanced build.

FoxBat · Apr 06, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

When most people identify balanced as something "good for the game", they aren't talking about a wide selection of classes, or that it has the tools to handle all comers. They're talking about bars that are versatile and interesting, and require skilled play to apply correctly instead of mindless spamming. (No idea what that is in the TA context really...)

This isn't completely the same as Izzy's definition, who hated on 4 gale warriors for example...

valence · Apr 06, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

[Edit: after rereading your post: yes those bars do favor skilled play, the only problem is that, besides the skilled play you have to buttonsmash 24/7 as an extra job]

if all skills become 20% better, balanced builds become 20% better. sadly enough those buffed skills during the latest updates hits ta a lot more then any other arena. I dont like the new necro bar either, mainly deu to foul feast. I dont like the me/n bar either, but I still blame that for at least 50% on the hc monk.

If you take away HC me/n will get a hit and WoD rules the day.
If you take away foul feast, you wont have an answer vs the me/n.

@yum and the poster
WoD necs are balanced?

femaro · Apr 06, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I think the Problem is with ranks..of course people want to get higher ranks and most of the time gimmick builds are the fastest way to get them... Also a lot of GvG HA Guilds run them, because they don't care bout TA.

r7r8 glads who are running balance shoot themselves in the leg. Of course they can counter most gimmicks but good gimmicks just often kill them...
They question on my side is: Why don't you switch to gimmicks..Gw is about builds. If a build is overpowered good players try not to run it or run sth. else a "balanced". But why? If you are a good player there is no need to prove it. Also you already have a high rank. If you really want to improve your rank run a gimmick..Good players + good build=pwnage. Which equals in more points than running balance.
In Real life it is the same. If two people have a good job but only one of them is somewhat "noble" he doesn'T say ok i'll become a bum to make the world more balanced :P even tho this is a slightly exagerrated example. anywas back to my point: Leave everyone the freedom to run what they want if they are having fun..that's what this game is about. IF you are not happy running a balanced, maybe you should change sth.

DreamWind · Apr 06, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

It isn't the players fault for choosing to play something "inbalanced" or "gimmicky". It is the games fault for rewarding such builds. The smart ones are sadly the ones abusing the most stuff in this game.

the_deSKtructor · Apr 06, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by femaro

I think the Problem is with ranks..of course people want to get higher ranks and most of the time gimmick builds are the fastest way to get them... Also a lot of GvG HA Guilds run them, because they don't care bout TA.

r7r8 glads who are running balance shoot themselves in the leg. Of course they can counter most gimmicks but good gimmicks just often kill them...
They question on my side is: Why don't you switch to gimmicks..Gw is about builds. If a build is overpowered good players try not to run it or run sth. else a "balanced". But why? If you are a good player there is no need to prove it. Also you already have a high rank. If you really want to improve your rank run a gimmick..Good players + good build=pwnage. Which equals in more points than running balance.
In Real life it is the same. If two people have a good job but only one of them is somewhat "noble" he doesn'T say ok i'll become a bum to make the world more balanced :P even tho this is a slightly exagerrated example. anywas back to my point: Leave everyone the freedom to run what they want if they are having fun..that's what this game is about. IF you are not happy running a balanced, maybe you should change sth.

U know, skilless buttonmashing is not fun. If i had to do that, then i might aswell not to play at all...

yum · Apr 06, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

@yum and the poster
WoD necs are balanced?

It is debatable. Still WoD would be in better shape if the recharge is a bit longer(15/20s mayb) or the health sacc is like 20-25%(this way you must consider the cost vs reward when using it).

@femaro: may I ask you why you play GW's pvp in the 1st place? If smashing buttons + grinding to get a silly number are fun, I suggest you playing L2, RF.... And if you cant bear the grind in those games, play Pacman.

Patrick Smit · Apr 06, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

First remark: this is not a flame, there are no professional players in TA (nobody gets a salary from that) and any g(1-7) can play as well as a g(8-9). I think its misplaced elitism, g8-9 are being obtained by farming the arenas, not by much improved skill over say g3-4 (assuming the title is gained by balanced progression).

Ok, now on the contents of topic I personally feel much sympathy for the topic, I hate all the builds you mentioned. I have entered TA from RA quite a few times, and depending on our team we did quite ok against most gimmicks (TA is usually dead around times I play).

But a good shove is still difficult to beat. But for sure shove is easier to D-shot then SoM. Interupting SoM requires a big amount of prediction, unprotted targets (unless magebane), and that the SoM mesmer doesnt fake, which is cheap with a signet. Without foul feast in your team blind pingpong will just end up in an ace unfortunately.

Basically I always wonder why people play gimmicks like that, it usually is based on (near) "invulnerability or spam, while I like basically tactical play of warrior, build adren, switch targets often and find the weak spot in the opposing team. I also necro a bit, but I find the skills near gimmick these days. Mesmer is fine too if not SoM. BS ele, too much spam for me, and monk causes me too much strain because i'm not playing that class enough.

In essence I feel SoM mesmer and FF necro screwed up the meta in a stale mate business, they almost force u to have such a necro aboard because without one u are playing "blindwars" (as was nicely visualized by JR http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...272338&page=2).

Teh Jace · Apr 06, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel singer

Well, recently I've never seen WM run anything else than Me/N same as [KeYs] nevers runs without Me/N..

And Me/N is just retarted..
We(rank 2-3 glads) had to run Me/N in order to at least have a chance vs them..
And what happens then with us rank 2 glads? We hold out vs WM or KeYs for the full 8 minutes!!
Ok, we die like once and we loose, but isn't it retarted? That a rank 2 glad team can easily survive for so long vs a rank 8 glad team?

Ppl who lamed their titles usually suck u know...

Teh Jace · Apr 07, 2008, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

First remark: this is not a flame, there are no professional players in TA (nobody gets a salary from that) and any g(1-7) can play as well as a g(8-9). I think its misplaced elitism, g8-9 are being obtained by farming the arenas, not by much improved skill over say g3-4 (assuming the title is gained by balanced progression).

Would u mind sending me ingame nicks of these g3-g4 miracles? There are tons of g3-g6 ppl around and I have not had a good mirror balanced match for ages... this is kinda weird.

In my opinion 99% of TA gimmicky population suxxx hard. And what about endless lines of accouncements like "g3 HC monk lf covenantway (only g3+++++), g4 Me/N lfp (g4++ only plz)". Are these your good players?

Good players who didnt grind out their titles by playing gimmicks must be picky. I dont wanna play with covenantway retards or Me/N zombies. I wanna play with ppl who dont suck. Buttonmashers please go pve, ty.

Patrick Smit · Apr 07, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

individual skill (Glad rank) versus team build does not hold in a comparison. You may have good players and bad players playing gimmicks or balanced. Playerskill (or prompted as professional players by the OP) show their skill by knowing how to handle in certain situations, or by adapting well to new ones. This behavior has nothing to do with meta or gimmicks in my opinion. There are undoubtedly skilled and low ranked players, while there are as well unskilled players who ground their way to R9 using gimmickway. Rank is Not a measure of how good you can play, more of how much time you devote to playing certain PvP types.

The fact that you see mostly Rx- LFGimmickWay does not mean that there are people who play well, with low ranks do play "balanced". Statistics will certainly favor my hypothesis, while the statement made by OP that G<8 are scrubs anyway, is always false (by definition). Even good players need to start at G1.