Curse

Ate of DK · Apr 11, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Nowadays you need players that really know what they are doing.

Just like in the old days, you have just a small group of good Blood Spikes.
I hated that build but I you got to give some credit to those who won halls every day with it. They excelled in some way against all the others who played it. I'd still like to call that the players' skill.

Ranger spike has been around forever but it has never been so present like Blood Spikes or IWAY in the past. That's why they don't need a nerf like the other mentioned builds. Something which is disturbing is that I face a R/D build on Underworld, Fetid and Burial. Then face a balanced on Relic Run. Another R/D on Golden Gates and a R/D on Courtyard with a Searing Flames. In Halls I get another Balanced and a retarded R/D who jumped 6 maps and ganks just a team for faction.

Anyway, that's how I experience it.

Kyp Jade · Apr 11, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Ate that problem will continue to exist so long as such large skips remain possible.

The way I see things, someone who changes up what he plays every so often just because its fun, without playing observer builds.

first three maps, face R/D nonsense (i will have to give credit to the very few teams that can actually run the build)

next map, face some crazy balanced team with 3 characters that have snares, including dual ward foes. /sigh... to bad they never bring aoe...relic blocking ftw sometimes...

forgotten = random, really doesnt matter what i face I hate this map so much

dark chambers almost always balanced or rspike

courtyard = gankyard, usually get sent back to UW because a random third team ganks

antechamber, random, this map is so gay

HoH, finally, oops, got ganked by R/D, back to UW

---
on the topic of rangerspike however, my only problem with the build isnt the spike itself (which could be toned down but whatever), but the amount of meta-hate you can put into a build that is supposed to be one-dimensional and gimmicky.

It is clearly not a balanced build, but you have all of the tools and flexibility on non-kill maps a balanced build does, usually more than they do as well. ESPECIALLY relic run, altar hold comes a real close second.

and that is why i wouldnt be bothered if rspike got a nice nerf.

DreamWind · Apr 11, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

This thread doesn't really deliver.

On topic, although I don't play Rspike and don't particularly like playing against it, I'm not convinced its definately overpowered at the moment. It seems like every team I've played in has been able to pressure it down with consistency. I actually don't remember the last time I lose to rspike (or sway for that matter).

I think its strengths come from the metagame/mappool of current HA (which some have mentioned above).

Ciric · Apr 11, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

R-spike may have just as many utility skills for relic runs ect(acutaly it has less snares then most builds), however the way it kills simply puts it at a disadvantage, u need all of ur spikers to kill things, SO, you can't slit your damage therefore either your running is getting freely snared, or u can't kill thier runner... GG Also the fact that it has NO aoe means you can perma block runners with 3 man blocks (or 2x2 amn blocks on unholy)

Your bad if you lose to r-spike on cap points.

Kyp Jade · Apr 11, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

the hex breaker on runners, snares on rit, and pin down comes to mind, plus the spare ranger able to d-shot snares

Thats not only 2 forms of anti-snare if you dont count the maintained veil (hex breaker and interupts)

Thats also two different snare people, which is more than what is fit in most balanced builds.

Last summer the meta balanced That I learned to play on at least, had two fire eles with hex breaker, a water ele, and a hammer warrior. That build had just as much as rspike does now. The problem with playing elementalist pressure builds like that today, is they dont kill. Need lots of physicals to play pressure today, which are really hard to slot hex breaker on without losing needed utility

Hex breaker is just one of those skills thats bad for the game, just as aura of stability is....

Oh and capture points isnt so much of a being able to kill issue as it is outsplitting. Rangers in rspike are very survivable, lightning reflexes and dual interupts. So it is difficult to quickly kill them, and then if you decide you want to ignore them and go for the ghostly team they split off, well that has 2 monks with it. GG

cap pts against rspike is about being able to split and countersplit, which is far beyond a lot of teams, including mine most nights when I dont have certain players with me

wuzzman · Apr 11, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

we all know that Killed u man just wants:

EUROSPIKE FLAWLESS VICTORY

if he just said that we wouldn't have this five page long thread. (fyi if rspike dies I'll play HA for 2 weeks straight just to celebrate the death of one of the most annoying builds that have plagued my win streaks for god knows how long)

Killed u man · Apr 20, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Bump, might as well keep this thread up there, hoping one of the devs might see. Esp. now that rspike is as prominent as ever. (Nice recent addition to the rspike repertoire: 3 Rangers, 2 Para's, OoV and 2 Monks. Dual Defensive Anthems, a N/Rt healer and 3 Dshots. Gl pressuring that down without dying. They can spike you down with only 2 Rangers and a Para, fyi)

tyrant rex · Apr 21, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Bump, might as well keep this thread up there, hoping one of the devs might see. Esp. now that rspike is as prominent as ever. (Nice recent addition to the rspike repertoire: 3 Rangers, 2 Para's, OoV and 2 Monks. Dual Defensive Anthems, a N/Rt healer and 3 Dshots. Gl pressuring that down without dying. They can spike you down with only 2 Rangers and a Para, fyi)

rly havent seen anyone running that but if all they rly have is da its not hard to interupt if the build u run isnt shit and can actually pressure

Kyp Jade · Apr 21, 2008, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Really against THAT particular rspike, treat it like a bad legoway. Thier only defense is dual DA, and 2 monks. N/Rts are pretty lousy at being primary healers against pressure. (if your wondering about escapeway they can survive because 5 ppl on thier team have block stances.)

Its all about catching the first few spikes while you apply pressure. If the first few spikes get through, you dont have a chance anyway. If you survive the first few, then if you actually get pressure on thier monks you will probably win.

Killed u man · Apr 21, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Really against THAT particular rspike, treat it like a bad legoway. Thier only defense is dual DA, and 2 monks. N/Rts are pretty lousy at being primary healers against pressure. (if your wondering about escapeway they can survive because 5 ppl on thier team have block stances.)

Its all about catching the first few spikes while you apply pressure. If the first few spikes get through, you dont have a chance anyway. If you survive the first few, then if you actually get pressure on thier monks you will probably win.

Agree, I now have a Earth Ele in the build and a WoW and a WardvHarm.
Yet we seem to loose against any half decent rspike. If your mesmer is focusing on the defensive, they WILL spike you down. Worse even, I usually build adrenline with a longbow (together with a second frontline) and they can spike us down clean, IN Harm through shields... (Thats over 100AL)

I fully agree on the fact that U CAN pressure them down, yet more often than not, UNLESS you fully anti your build, you will get spiked down on sight, disableing you from pressuring to begin with. The ONLY way U got a fair shot at beating these, is by having atleast 2 characters in your team builder fully counter it. (Bsurge, DA) This leaves VERY few options left, and will most likely leave you behind with having to run a spike build yourself... (Face it, with a Mesmer, 2 monks, a bsurge and a para, you have 3 spots left, which isn't enough to "pressure" a rspike down, so you have to rely on spiking aswell)
And same story, if they want, they can play defensivly, and shut down 3 party members on your side. (Savage + Dshot = Win, sometimes they have Punish instead of Savage)

Krazy Kat · Apr 21, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Worse even, I usually build adrenline with a longbow (together with a second frontline) and they can spike us down clean, IN Harm through shields... (Thats over 100AL)

Armor doesn't stack anymore beyond +25 armor. In this case, assuming Water Magic is at 12 it will give you +22 armor against piercing. Shields up gives you +60 armor against piercing. Since Shields Up has the highest armor bonus, you will only get a +60 armor bonus. However, shield bonuses still give you the full effect and do stack.

Kyp Jade · Apr 21, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Only thing an earth ele has against r-spike is eruption. And relying on armor against rspike doesnt always work. Cracked armor was a mistake to implement in the game, and r-spike is the only build in the game that gets to exploit it. So there is -20 armor. Plus the fact that the spike is designed to take down 120 armor targets in the first place.

Weapon of warding also isnt the greatest counter, sure its a nice prot to maintain on ur infuser, but it wont save you.

Ward harm is only armor.

Interuption is sometimes the only way to survive the first few spikes on an rspike. Its also something I dont pack very much of in my builds, because interupts dont mean as much today as they did way back when. Spells/Spike skills recharge to fast.

Divinus Stella · Apr 21, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Instead of trying to survive try to roll them quickly with mass pressure, we faced the TV scrubs in HA inbetween AT games using a gvg build and rolled them flat in about 2 minutes, they may have 4 healers but they are really bad healers.

Krazy Kat · Apr 21, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I see two main weaknesses for R-Spike just simply from their build.

1) They can only spike one target at a time. This is the priority weakness for ranger spike. If you can kill them faster by spreading damage across their entire team or spiking them faster than they spike you you'll have a good chance at winning.

2) Most of their support comes from their ritualist. I know how important this is since monking for a ranger spike group. The caller had major issues with our ritualist. Brutal weapon, shell shock, vital weapon and sundering weapon/shell shock (without cracked armor there's no deep wound) all add the most important buffs to ranger spike. If you can get an interrupter on their ritualist and prot them up, their damage will be severly limited and less lethal. I think it is a mistake to shut down the spikers over the ritualist.

Skyros · Apr 21, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Killed is saying there is a new version of R-spike that is more resistant to pressure so its not as easy as saying "just pressure this a lot and you'll win".

EDIT- and all though you are right about the rit being a source for a lot of damage in the R-spike, I'm fairly sure that that a competent team will just strip and spike if your interrupter is really shutting down their rit.

Ate of DK · Apr 21, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Instead of trying to survive try to roll them quickly with mass pressure, we faced the TV scrubs in HA inbetween AT games using a gvg build and rolled them flat in about 2 minutes, they may have 4 healers but they are really bad healers.

With a GvG build you might be able to roll a few builds in HA. But that's because you're more focussed on killing instead of other game modes like relic runs and capture points.

By the way, We (the TV scrubs) don't play with 4 healers, you can keep the insults aside.

Anyway, it still boosts my ego when people write that they are happy that they killed some TV scrubs. I don't think it's something special if you kill us.

Divinus Stella · Apr 21, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

With a GvG build you might be able to roll a few builds in HA. But that's because you're more focussed on killing instead of other game modes like relic runs and capture points.

By the way, We (the TV scrubs) don't play with 4 healers, you can keep the insults aside.

Anyway, it still boosts my ego when people write that they are happy that they killed some TV scrubs. I don't think it's something special if you kill us.

Well TV are to ranger spike what souls of glory are to necro spike, when you play the same build 24/7 you tend to develop a reputation for it.

Ate of DK · Apr 21, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Well TV are to ranger spike what souls of glory are to necro spike, when you play the same build 24/7 you tend to develop a reputation for it.

True, you get a reputation and you'll get ganked for it every 2nd match.
However, we haven't been able to get a guildteam together for weeks.
It's only 4 of us that are playing (almost) every evening on workdays.

Anyway, to get back on topic.
We've been playing other builds as well. We have a very active alliance and it's not all about r-spike. It's pretty easy to beat a r-spike when you played one yourself and most of the helpfull comments are allready given in this thread. Pressure is a nice word but you need to pressure the right ones. Sometimes it doesn't even need to be called pressure if you just take out the most important skills.

Divinus Stella · Apr 21, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

The builds vary so much its hard to give a solid plan of action, against the usual build its best to keep the Rt/E shutdown since it has the warrior shutdown and weapons but im not sure about the dual DA build.

The 2 monk backline in the dual DA version seems to be the weak part since its a similar setup to lego, treating it like paragon spike and training the monks repeatedly isnt so bad if you have a mesmer to screw with the prot monk.

Krazy Kat · Apr 21, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I've also called for ranger spike and noticed some issues on our side.

1) Obstructions: If your spikers don't have proper line of sight obviously your arrows won't hit. I am aware that in HA there are few obstructions available but they do help a little bit.

2) Mobility: Ranger spike cannot move around that well: What I mean is in maps especially capture points r-spike's movement is hindered significantly. As with many spike builds, you need most all of the spikers together to really drop a target. Yes, you can split the rangers but you lose the damage. I've lost in Forgotten Shrines because the other team had Fall Back and were able to split better.

3) Blind/Anti-attack hexes: Pretty self-explanatory. Hex Breakers should be taken off with a cheap hex like parasitic bond before applying the faintheartedness; not the other way around. Hexes also force the rangers to use their alternative primary spike skill (Dual Shot [25% less damage] or Sloth Hunter's [You lose an extra buff from glass arrows and brutal weapon/anthem of envy from firing only one arrow] for example) since Forked Arrow will only fire one arrow. Slowdown hexes also mess up their timing. I also had a N/Rt in an Escapeway once drop Blind Was Mingson when we were spiking. Properly applying blind and hexes significantly reduces their damage.

4) Deep wound on spike: Preventing this can be the breakpoint between a lethal and non-lethal spike. The ritualist is the easiest to counter by interrupting their sundering weapon or shell shock but deep wound can also be prevented by messing around with the Paragon. Without chest thumper (or a late chest thumper), your monks have time to react to catch the spike.

5) Not having favorable winds.

In short, the main spiking power of ranger spike doesn't come from the spikers: it comes from the ritualist's buffs and the paragon's deep wound. Although you can shut these down, you lose valuable shutdowns on their monks. However, I think the real reason why ranger spike is so deadly now is because of the current spike/sway meta. Back in the day when there were a more variety of builds available it was very common to see ranger spike having a hard time keeping up due to factors like Fertile Season, Oath Shot NR (think IWAY), Shelter/Union, degen pressure, Kill count (It's very hard for a r-spike to kill more than a bunch of eles with fire magic and deep freeze when kill count was around) and blind/AoE eles.