Curse

Killed u man · Apr 08, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Previous thread had the discussion, this one will have the solution: (Will have "my" updates in Italic.)

Quote:

If you think it's overpowered, propose a list of solutions and people will discuss that

*Ranger:
-> Forked Arrow: "Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment or Hex, you shoot only one arrow."
Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment,Hex or Weapon Spell, you shoot only one arrow.
-> Sloth's: "If this attack hits, target foe takes +10...22 damage. If that foe is not using a Skill, Sloth Hunter's Shot does an additional +10...30 damage."
"If this attack hits, target foe takes +10...22 damage. If that foe is not using a Skill or not Attacking, Sloth Hunter's Shot does an additional +10...30 damage."
->Dual Shot: Shoot two arrows simultaneously at target foe. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment,Hex or Weapon Spell, you shoot only one arrow. (Make it copy with Forked)
-> Savage Shot: "If Savage Shot hits, your target's action is interrupted. If that action was a spell, you strike for +13...25 damage. E10 A1/2 R5"
If Savage Shot hits, your target's action is interrupted. If that action was a spell, you strike for +13...25 damage. E10 A1/2 R10

*Ritualist:
-> Brutal Weapon: "Give target ally a Brutal Weapon for 15...39 seconds. The bearer's weapon strikes for +5...13 damage as long as the bearer is under no Enchantments. E10 A1 R15"
Give target ally a Brutal Weapon for 15...39 seconds. The bearer's weapon strikes for +5...13 damage as long as the bearer is under no Enchantments. E10 A1 R30
-> Make Spawning Power affect weapon spells/spirirs more... Make weapons USELESS unless you're planning on atleast speccing +-8 in it... I'll save this for another thread tough.

*Paragon:
-> Nerf Leadership
-> "Make Haste!:"For 5...17 seconds, target other ally moves 33% faster. This skill ends if that ally successfully hits with an attack."
For 5...17 seconds, target other ally moves 25% faster. This skill ends if that ally successfully hits with an attack.

*Mesmer:
-> Hex Breaker: Revert to Stance... [THX IZZY ^^]
More to come if it pops up in my mind, but this should cover Rspike without hurting to many other builds. (Besides para's, they need to die anyways)

EDIT: Can a mod delete Chaos' post, non-constructive

valence · Apr 08, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

i really dont care whatever happens with forked or dual but the nerf to savage hits the wrong points. with forked/dual gone, no need to touch savage.

Killed u man · Apr 08, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

i really dont care whatever happens with forked or dual but the nerf to savage hits the wrong points. with forked/dual gone, no need to touch savage.

Yeah, that's obviously arguable.

Savage was mainly a secondary tough... First nerf the Forkeds/Sloth's, and then see what happens. Still some form of rspike (Which is too OP), then hit Savage...

Ciric · Apr 08, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Nerf leadership..

your going to nerf the whole paragon line because of r-spike that isn't even IMBA. You sir make me laugh.

Why revert hex breaker to a stance? it does nothing to counter anything except brining it on a warrior. Again, your funny.

Might as well totally KILL brutal weapon, its not IMBA in the least bit, less extra damage then orders, has to be put up in range of ur target, so its easier to interrupt. And there is no reason you should have to spec into Spawning anymore then you already do.

The nerf to savage also makes me chuckle. Nerf a key skill to most ranger builds simply because of r-spike. Believe it or not, there are other aspects to this game rather then HA. Savage should not be touched, its a staple interrupt that all other interrupts in the game are based around.

Make Haste, again, nerfing this skill just to hurt r-spike, there is no reason to nerf this.

And finnaly: Random killing of r-spike skills, really i see no reason to nerf these skills, but if it will stop making u QQ fine, good r-spikes will still be fine.

But since these skill updates are clearly not to balance the game, but to save your pathetic should from getting owned by a build that can be countered so easily, most HAer are just to stupid to do it, Why don't u provide us a list of skill you would like buffed.

You like RT spike don't you, you know, a spike that was actually IMBA. we should buff it to hell.. YE? Or maybe since u cant run balanced builds (obvious by the fact that u lose to r-spike in halls) we should buff fire eles, taint, and warrior damage! THEN MAYBE YOU CAN PRESSURE!

Seriously, stop QQing because your IMBa build got nerfed and you can't win now, so you want to dumb this game and make it easy because your bad and r-spike pisses you off because you know you SHOULD be able to beat it, but your to ignorant to do so.

None of those skills should be nerfed, they are all balanced.

Lrn2Gw and stop QQing and nerfing builds for the rest of us because you are bad.

Killed u man · Apr 08, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

It was constructive, you should read it, just because i don't agree with a word you say doesn't mean its not. Your wrong, thats simple, I don't even r-spike that much, i just hate seeing skills be nerf for no reason. Not only that but ur nerfs are ill aimed and hurt more then just r-spike, sorry, if me pointing out ur reasoning and proving you wrong is flaming ban me now. Again, your attempts at nerfing these skills are not because of skill imbalance but because of player stupidity. To a lesser degree its like saying "Savannah heat is IMBA because if u stand in it you will take a lot of damage!!" NO! Players just get smart and don't stand in AoE. Same goes for R-spike, learn to make them split their damage and run builds that counter it, dual mele pressures work nice, but that would require for you to know how to pressure, and you clearly don't. Again, if me disagreeing is flaming ban me, because the Guru PvP section is really SRS!!!

You say you don't rspike often, yet:

Quote:

stop QQing and nerfing builds for the rest of us

You have to stand in AoE on Cap Points and HoH, making AoE OP, but that's not at the order in this thread.

You called me: Stupid, Noob, Ritspiker and what-not-else.

If you plan on flaming, PM me, I'll gladly PM you back...

The skills which I mentioned do NOT hurt more than Rspike:
-Hexbreaker back to stance hurts? Warriors? See, this is why you shouldn't post here. (I'll give you 1 Ecto for every warrior in top GvG you see with Hexbreaker in a serious build)
-Brutal? Gets used in Rspike and HB. In HB it gets used once every 45 seconds, so it wouldn't hurt.
-Savage Shot WOULD hit GvG, and I realize that. But as I said, start with the Dual Arrow Skills, and then we'll go from there on...
-If it was up to me, I would DELETE (Or completely rework, which basicly is the same thing) the whole paragon class, and I'm pretty sure more people will agree than disagree on this one...
-"Make Haste!": Compare to Windbourne Speed.

Please (I'm actually asking you), STOP posting here, and STOP flaming altogether. I will PM holymasumune to delete these posts.

I edit this post as a reply to what Ciric Posted underneath. (Because I expect this all to be deleted soon):
"Learn to play better?"
PLEASE STOP FLAMING! (Please get that in your thick skull)
"Savage Kills GvG"
PLEASE READ MY POSTS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

Savage Shot WOULD hit GvG, and I realize that. But as I said, start with the Dual Arrow Skills, and then we'll go from there on...

"brutal hurts HB"
DON'T POST RANDOM STUFF WHICH ISN'T EVEN TRUE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

Brutal? Gets used in Rspike and HB. In HB it gets used once every 45 seconds

Quote:

Originally Posted by killed u man

once every 45 seconds

"Windborne Speed": Please, do yourself a favor, STOP calling ME the noob, and go observe to first/second season of GvG Tournies...

Riotgear · Apr 08, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

The skills to hit in r-spike are Sloth Hunter's Shot and Forked Arrow. The skill to hit in spiritway is Escape.

If you want to change expertise, change it to affect non-spells only. That'll give Mending Touch the tap it probably needs too.

CassiusDrehyg · Apr 08, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Let's start a list of ways that the teams I play with counter Ranger Spike:

1) Piercing Shields.
2) Defensive Anthem.
3) "Shields Up!"
4) Non-failing Prot.
5) Non-failing Infuser.
6) Weapon of Warding.

Six basic tools which will help you on the road to success against Ranger Spike.

Oh yeah, if you have a non-failure Elementalist and non-failure Pargons, they can take down Favorable Winds for you. Ranger Spike should be a free win. Just out-pressure them.

Why have you destroyed a pretty awesome buff to Hex Breaker? It's fine the way it is now.

Morgoth the dark · Apr 08, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

and hugging the walls helps a bit too. But i've seen rigor mortis on para, so i guess infuser/prot are quite easy targets.
Well it's quite hard to beat rspike atm

Monk Gsb · Apr 08, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Don't tell me what to do and what not to do, OKAY THANKS BYE

but yea 2, and 6 is made useless by Rigor mortis or anthem of guidence.

CassiusDrehyg · Apr 08, 2008, 12:32 PM // 12:32

As for Rigor Mortis, call it on Vent. Veil it off? Simply catch the spike? Problem solved.

In the case of Guidance, it's as simple as catching the spike.

What you have to remember is that 99% of the players running these gimmicks are terrible, and that their spikes won't be perfect. Sure, maybe they'll get one through, who knows? Just res up and cry less.

CassiusDrehyg · Apr 08, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

cant veil anthem

Yeah, I fixed the post.

One other thing is of course, Cry of Frustration. Bad players like to ball up. Exploit it.

Monk Gsb · Apr 08, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by CassiusDrehyg

As for Rigor Mortis, call it on Vent. Veil it off? Simply catch the spike? Problem solved.

In the case of Guidance, it's as simple as catching the spike.

What you have to remember is that 99% of the players running these gimmicks are terrible, and that their spikes won't be perfect. Sure, maybe they'll get one through, who knows? Just res up and cry less.

quite simply put, if you want to run r-spike dont pug it ? (or atleast dont pug the spikers)

Ciric · Apr 08, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Y
"Windborne Speed": Please, do yourself a favor, STOP calling ME the noob, and go observe to first/second season of GvG Tournies...

lol? are you seriosly comparing seaons 1-2 GvG meta to the current HA meta? Anyone else see something wrong with this logic? I mean hell, martyr mesmers, charge sword wars, and crip shots with blackout were all ran then, they arnt ran now. YES, windborn was used because it was the only decent air skill that provided a speed buff with e/mo prod runners. Thats it. The ele class is not designed as a party buffer, the paragon class is, SO make haste should be better then windborn, by far. IF you were to run windborn on your ele instead of make haste (due to them being equals because of ur nerf) then it opens up other secondary options, so more versitily. YOU SHOULD BE AT A DISADVANTAGE IF YOU CHOSE TO RUN WINDBORN.

Again, good prot and r/spike is done. Learn to spirit bond, rigor is uselss then (you don't need block, u need a prot that canwatch how bows turn.) If you save the first 3 spikes its GG for r-spike, you have to much pressure on them then. The Spike is easily saved by 1 spirit bond, it happens all the tme v. good teams. Its not like uprotable bloodspike, or rt spike that would go threw a SB and Infuse sometimes (depends on the spike obviosly). Get non-failing monks. The build isnt IMBA. (BTW rigor or rend on 1 spike every 20 seconds does nothing if thats the only spike that goes threw in those 20 seconds.)

Simple solution to your problem, learn to prot, it totaly stops the spike (3 spkers x3 hits over 60 = 8 SB triggers and 1 full damage that goes threw) Again im going to use rt spike as an example (not because thats all borat and hero know how to run) where 7-8 spike skills still go threw SB way over 60damage causing you to have the SB + infuse to save the spike, that was IMBA. R-Spike is not IMBA, you just need to actualy run pressure builds in halls to beat it, not other spikes or "balanced" like lego that is more spike then pressure.

However to be more constructive.

DO NOT NERF SAVAGE, the skill is far from IMBA and would hurt alot more then HA, no reason to ruin GvG and other rangers because of r-spike that can be beat.

Leadership is also not the issue with r-spike, nor is make haste considering they are in most HA builds, not just r-spike.

Brutal = orders for rt, the way they act are different obviosly, but its similar concepts, if u nrf brutal it will never see play again, and it is far from IMBA.

The only nerfs i see viable that u posted are the nerfs to forked and sloths. (Dual is far from IMBA, just because it gets double orders/brutal buffs the actualy damage is lacking, and it only get envy/guidance on the first hit.)

I still say that none of these skills should be touched.

AND, to counter arguments that will come up soon..

Rend Enchantments is a great skill, should not be nerfed because of r-spike, it gives the spike away when not used right on time (and if you use it right on time you lose a: a spiker or b: deep wound from the para)ceither way using a rend weaks the spike to a point where it is only good when used skillfully and corectly. For those of you who don't understand, when a skill is good because it is used with player skill it is not IMBA. Guidance is not imba because it only affects 1/3 of the spke. Envy needs to be reworked to pressure increasing paragon skill, not spike skill that it is right now (example. lower damage but make it always work, maybe change it to a shout if u loser damage enough so paras will run it and not worry about all the cast time). and Rigor telegraphs spikes, makeing it very easy to prot. (a team should never get a timed rigor + rend off and still kill you lose to much damage then.)

Riotgear · Apr 08, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark

Not too shure, what you mean by this

Change to "non-spell touch skills."

Touch skills that are also spells: [skill]Mending Touch[/skill][skill]Rending Touch[/skill][skill]Blood Ritual[/skill][skill]Consume Soul[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Touch[/skill][skill]Healing Burst[/skill][skill]Healing Touch[/skill][skill]Renew Life[/skill][skill]Restore Life[/skill][skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill][skill]Spirit to Flesh[/skill][skill]Star Burst[/skill][skill]Tease[/skill][skill]Test of Faith[/skill][skill]Winter's Embrace[/skill]

Everything else is non-spell.

Killed u man · Apr 08, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

IF you were to run windborn on your ele instead of make haste (due to them being equals because of ur nerf) then it opens up other secondary options, so more versitily. YOU SHOULD BE AT A DISADVANTAGE IF YOU CHOSE TO RUN WINDBORN.

or rt spike that would go threw a SB and Infuse sometimes (depends on the spike obviosly)

DO NOT NERF SAVAGE, the skill is far from IMBA and would hurt alot more then HA, no reason to ruin GvG and other rangers because of r-spike that can be beat.

Isn't it the same with Para's now? What you said made no sense... Ye, if you were to run Windborne on a Ele, you had a free secondary. If you run "Make Haste!" on a Para, you DON'T have a free secondary?
Please, teach me how to reason logicly!

Ritspike going through SB? I have a better idea, buy a better prot...

Savage? L2Read

Ben-A-BoO · Apr 08, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

/notsigned to all above suggestions
First of there is little to none background on why you think that those skills are imbalanced. Beside a closed flame thread that you derailed yourself. I couldn't find much proper evidence of the imbalances by posting skill comparisons.

My two cents:

- Brutal arrow is already to conditional;
- Savage shoot is a perfectly balanced skill;
- Making Dual a copy of forked while nerfing forked into oblivion is just <insert random quote by ciric>
- Sloth is a lucky shot without warmonger;

- Make Haste is the only viable 33% move buff left, making it non-self target is enough to balance that out;
- Leadership is a strong primary, but not as strong as expertise or soul reaping; blind & block metas screw not only your damage over but also your e-management. Keep it as it is;

- Spawning power can need a buff but don't sacrifice the idea of secondary professions for it by nerfing weapon spells again;

- hex breaker, erhm yeah right any other skills you wanna reverted back to something else?

Thanks for your time,
Timebandit

p.s. I don't do rspike myself if that is of any interest here

Horace The Great · Apr 08, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Sloth hunter can be lowered a little I think.

Hex Breaker, make it or 15 energy or 5/10 energy + stance + reduce duration.

I think the Rt is not so overpowered, since controlling it is not super hard.

phan · Apr 08, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

"Windborne Speed": Please, do yourself a favor, STOP calling ME the noob, and go observe to first/second season of GvG Tournies...

Go play some GvG tournies ;

Seriously the solution to good builds aren't nerfs but finding things that are yet balanced and can counter the "meta" ;

If you can do that ; well then you can proudly say your a good player =)

Killed u man · Apr 08, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Read the other thread for WHY it should be nerfed. It got closed because some rspikers found it necessary to pm their intire guild to come flame on it.
I on the other hand refuse to try and win an arguement that way... (OMFG, EVERYONE COME POST TO DEFEND ME ON THIS THREAD PLEAAAAASE!)

Make haste lasts an extra 5 seconds (3 With Enchant set), is 5 lesser energy, no casting time but ends on attack and cannot be self target.
Neither are downsides, because:
-> Windborne will only be used on casters anyways, a frontline without speedbuff = lolwar.
-> Windborne CAN be self-target; but than you waste 1.75 seconds every 12-14 seconds... (Thus making it pretty crappy for self-targetting)

Either buff windborne or take "Make Haste!" down.

This will touch more builds, BUT it's a good update. QQ, my rspike cannot run at 33% faster no more. QQ, my legoway cannot run at 33% faster no more....
On top of that, "make haste!" is in the same attribute line as "Brace Yourself!", "Fallback!" and SoC. Yes, I know, command is probably the best paragon line. (Utility) But it OUTCLASSES anything else...
What's better for the game: An unremovable, uninterruptable, unshutdownable (nice word, eh? - Don't even try and mention Vocal Minority) 33% Speed Buff OR an interruptable, removable and shutdownable (lawl - lack of better words) Speed Buff?
If you can't see what's best for the game, than there isn't much point arguing.
But yeah, I could have saved that one for another thread, but whatever...

The nerf to hexbreaker will make it possible to actually hex up the rangers (Frozen Burst, ...) WITHOUT hurting any other build. Once again, If you honestly think a Warrior should use Hex Breaker over Shock, than there isn't much I can do about that...

Who said anything about "nerfing" the Weapon Spells? We are merely shortening the duration and reducing the effect, BUT buffing it when you have more Spawning Power...
If you fail to see it should have been like since day1 Factions (NF pretty much, when rits got insane buffs), I won't try and convince you wrong. (You can't proove a retard he's retarded)
E.G: WoW: 50% chance Block, 1...5 regen, duration 1...5 (at 12)...6 (at 14) seconds.
Spawning power will increase duration of weapon spells by 10% for every point in it... Making a full resto rit a strong WoW'er (Assuming he has 12 spawning), with a 13 second WoW... Yet, N/Rt's will be stuck with a 5 second WoW... (Obviously the % could be altered, but you get the point)

The solution to "good" builds is indeed finding counters...
Thats why so many people QQ'ed about Bloodspike and ritspike, right?...
*Still waiting*

Ye, I know, once again:

Rspike is TOO hard to counter. Shields Up is barely worth bringing anymore. With cracked armor, they spike you trough it btw... (Yes, I tried it, ele died not 100% clean, but still, isn't "Shields Up!" the ultimate counter?)

Also, you guys keep saying Ritspike and Bspike were OP aswell. WHEN did I say they weren't? I know aswell as the next best PvE'er that bloodspike and ritspike was OP.
Gues what, I was the first guy to sign the "nerf ritspike" petition.

I go a bit Off-Topic here to express my feelings about some people on GWGuru, don't concider this part of the thread
----------------------------------------------------------
That's the difference between me and these rspikers:
I can admit the build I run is OP, and I will try and balance it so other players have a chance.
These people who defend rspike ALL run the build, but refuse to work for a solution to balance their farming build.
Worse even, they try to make me look bad by saying random quotes such as: "Stop ruining your own thread by postings screenies".

I am yet to see a thread in which I said: "I want to see this thread ruined".

The problem on guru is (And MANY people will agree) that ALOT of people are like sheep. I post a reasonable thread (I was sceptic in the beginning) and then there is 1 person that shouts: 'OMFG YOU NOOB DONT NERF TEH RSPIKES!", PM's about 3-4 guildies in-game to come post the same thing AND EVERYONE then joins the Bandwagon...

(Look at Lore, Ciric, ...)

No offence, but I wonder WHO pm'd holy to close the thread, INSTEAD of cleaning it up...
I pm'ed holy, in which I NICELY asked him to keep this thread clean. He refuses to do that, because he's just waiting for a reason to get this thread closed. Like I said, couple of PM's, have everyone join the bandwagon and off you go, victimizing the next best person who is actually TRYING to keep HA somewhat alive...

Kyp Jade · Apr 08, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

Go play some GvG tournies ;

Seriously the solution to good builds aren't nerfs but finding things that are yet balanced and can counter the "meta" ;

If you can do that ; well then you can proudly say your a good player =)

Teams in fact, do take skills that are yet balanced, and counter the "meta". The problem with countering rspike, is that they have so many free skill slots in thier build, they can build to counter your counters.

In english, that means whatever skills you take to screw with thier spike, they will take a few skills to screw with those skills.

The question of rspike doing too much damage shouldnt even be asked, they DO do to much damage, and rangers were never meant to be damage. dealers. Stop posting saying the damage they put out is balanced. But thats not the problem with rspike. The problem with rspike is the extreme difficulty in countering it without making your build 100% total anti rspike. I can assure you nobody likes to play 'counter-builds'.