Mar 27, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57
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#41
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: STALKER!
Guild: Not in One
Profession: N/A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isil`Zha
I've played hundreds of AB games - I've never seen a game lost due to excessive shrine capping. I've especially never seen a game totally bombed by a team due to excessive shrine capping.
I do, however, constantly see games that are totally bombed because the rest of the team doesn't cap anything because they treat it as nothing more than a kill-fest. After finally getting their shit together once the score is 200 to 350 after they just sat in a mob kill-fest and start capping again, then we lose the game because we don't cap fast enough.
Excessive "kill-festing" and mobbing are a major problem that result in horrible losses.
Excessive shrine capping never causes this problem.
Because of this, though, I've already expressed how I feel AB should be scored - which would better equalize the importance of shrine capping and killing in the sense that mobbing and killing once you have the shrine advantage will go much further to complete the objective.
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I've seen people take it so literally, they run through an angry mob of 2 mms, without even fighting trying to go for the next shrine.
Also, I'm sure most comebacks are because of kills.
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Mar 27, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58
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#42
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Look above you!
Guild: Knights of Apathy
Profession: A/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
the +points per kill on how many shrines you have was how it was set up before. that got changed some time ago in favour of what we have now.
the old system often made comebacks impossible. having points per kill based on the number of shrines held often started huge snowball effects iwhere entire games were decided on who happened to win the first encounter.
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I don't think it was. The only update I remember ever seeing for AB were the factions rewards. (I'll see if I can find anything in the update history that showed a change in AB scoring.) The snowball effects were due to other problems, that weren't related to ABs themselves but rather aforementioned problems such as the team being one large 12 person party so party heals and party enchants like Aegis became overpowered.
The most overpowered thing I remember from early AB days were MMs with unlimited minions. They'd have armies of 50+ minons that could totally obliterate the entire opposing team.... a 1 person build that can easily beat 12 players is rather imbalanced. That would of course be a massive snowball, by providing the MM with more and more corpses to expand their army.
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Mar 27, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02
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#43
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über těk-nĭsh'ən
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Profession: R/
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Quote:
I've played hundreds of AB games - I've never seen a game lost due to excessive shrine capping.
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i've also played hundreds of ABs, and i often seen matches lost due to excessive capping.
take your example for instance:
once you've realized you're down 200 to 350, the answer is not go on a mass capping spree. your opponents are already ahead on points, and playing a cap race simply won't allow you to make up ground.
the correct response is this: get 4 people to spread out and cap, while the other 8 zerg rush the nearest team of 4 you can find. you'll have the numerical advantage, so you should win and get the easy +12 points. if that unfortunate team of 4 was standing on a shrine, cap it and move on. keep repeating until you've killed enough people to gain a lead, THEN start the cap race.
i'll repeat myself in case i wasn't clear about it before: capping will NEVER win you a game (or more importantly, never allow you to catch up if you are down in points), unless the other side forgot to cap anything, or all rolled over and died.
capping is important. killing is just as important. the trick is to know when's the time to cap, and when's the time to kill.
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i'm quite sure there was a change to the scoring system at one point. i distinctively remember that killing was given more importance...
Last edited by moriz; Mar 27, 2008 at 01:04 AM // 01:04..
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Mar 27, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02
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#44
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
Guild: [MaSS]
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
I've seen people take it so literally, they run through an angry mob of 2 mms, without even fighting trying to go for the next shrine.
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I usually get away with stuff like this, alive. I consider it the right thing to do. Ignoring MMs and stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Also, I'm sure most comebacks are because of kills.
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I'm sure they're not.
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Mar 27, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05
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#45
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Look above you!
Guild: Knights of Apathy
Profession: A/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
I've seen people take it so literally, they run through an angry mob of 2 mms, without even fighting trying to go for the next shrine.
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That is idiotic. What you're describing is more like "run through an angry mob of 2 MMs... and die horribly, without capturing anything."
Quote:
Also, I'm sure most comebacks are because of kills.
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Err, no - any major comeback, if you look at the map, it'll be because your team holds most of the shrines.
Of course, capping shrines requires killing. Killing is important, the problem is people kill just to kill, with no other objective. When you should be killing to reach your objective - capturing shrines.
How long does a typical 4 v 4 fight last in AB anyway? Say something like 1 minute... that's 12 points for 1 minute of fighting. If you held 5 shrines for 1 minute, you just earned 40 points. Even if you hold just two shrines you'd earn 16 points for one minute - still more than getting kills. This is assuming a flawless victory over another party and they don't earn points for killing a few of your teammates in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
i've also played hundreds of ABs, and i often seen matches lost due to excessive capping.
take your example for instance:
once you've realized you're down 200 to 350, the answer is not go on a mass capping spree. your opponents are already ahead on points, and playing a cap race simply won't allow you to make up ground.
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That's not excessive capping - if you're behind on shrines, then you're not capping well.
Again, having 5 shrines for 1 minute nets you 40 points, compared to a one minute fight where you may kill 4 people for 12 points. If you killed the entire opposing team - with no losses, in one minute you'd still only get 36 points. Taking losses effectively changes that - if you have 4 losses you've only gained on the opposing team by 24 points. Similarly, with 5 shrines and 4 player losses you get 28... but of course you'll need to be doing some killing as well to get those shrines, making up for the losses.
Getting more shrines than the other team gets you quite a bit more points than just making a lot of kills while the opposing team has 6 shrines and one is neutral. (I just love coming to an empty enemy shrine... as I witness my teammates run right passed it to attack a mob instead of capping the shrine.) I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen a party run up, take out all the NPCs at a shrine... then leave... without capping... to attack an irrelevant enemy mob. Just in the time they waste running to the mob to attack, that team scores another couple points.
Quote:
the correct response is this: get 4 people to spread out and cap, while the other 8 zerg rush the nearest team of 4 you can find. you'll have the numerical advantage, so you should win and get the easy +12 points. if that unfortunate team of 4 was standing on a shrine, cap it and move on. keep repeating until you've killed enough people to gain a lead, THEN start the cap race.
i'll repeat myself in case i wasn't clear about it before: capping will NEVER win you a game (or more importantly, never allow you to catch up if you are down in points), unless the other side forgot to cap anything, or all rolled over and died.
capping is important. killing is just as important. the trick is to know when's the time to cap, and when's the time to kill.
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Ah see, yes, I agree that killing is important too, but many people put far more importance on killing, and just ignore capping altogether. It's actually really hard to capture and not do any killing - the other team will guard, or be attempting to capture and you'll cross paths, and they'll try to stop you, and you try to stop them.
It's very easy to do nothing but kill and ignore the capturing side. You can simply just ignore the shrines and look for the nearest enemy dots. Also, many gamers are simple minded and want to do what requires the least thought - following enemies around to kill them.
Quote:
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i'm quite sure there was a change to the scoring system at one point. i distinctively remember that killing was given more importance...
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As I recall, killing used to not give any points towards winning, and the more importance was making it give 3 points towards the score.
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Mar 27, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13
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#46
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Krytan Explorer
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Killing and capping after necessary for winning. You must balance the amount of killing (other players) with a constant capping streak. Does I win the thread cause that's what I have been reading lol... If there's one thing about the people that scream "CAP FFS OMG WTF BBQ WE ARE LOSING Q-Q RAGGEEEQQUQIITTTT", is that most of the time their team is dive bombing the base defender so to speak. Primarily at the end of the game (470-470) it's more important to get kills than wait for the shrine mechanism ton net you points. Always remember, fight skirmishes you can win >_<...and make sure you add a pip to the shrine capping instead of standing right outside wanding mr. wammo...
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Mar 27, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56
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#47
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Guild: Us Are Not [leet]
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
i'm quite sure there was a change to the scoring system at one point. i distinctively remember that killing was given more importance...
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I understand what you are saying and I think I have the answer to why it didn't work. The change, where killing became more important, was not offset with other things becoming less important. It is hard to explain but I will do my best.
This situation is comparable to the nightfall powercreep (I hope you are familiar with this term... if not go QQ more). When nightfall was introduced, the offensive power was drastically increase. The defensive power was increased just as much. This created a "spiky" meta with TONS of passive defense and essentially killed all forms of true pressure play and crippled most forms of balance in GvG.
Increasing the importance of killing in AB to match shrine capping is essentially doing the same thing as the Nightfall powercreep. It caused a downward spiral effect on scoring (where one team could lose a match based on who won the first few skurmishes). This is not because killing gave more points, it's because capping didn't give less points (or no points).
Basically, we need to reduce the effectiveness of capping, not by increasing the effectiveness of something else, but by literaly nerfing the direct influence capping has on scoring. If we bring capping shrines down to the level of killing on the metaphorical scale of importance, we will see a promotion in skillful and balanced play.
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Mar 27, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34
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#48
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto
Guild: Real Eyes Realize Real Lies[Tree]
Profession: P/
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Well to redraw the Canthan border, the Kurzicks and Luxons are at war. But isn't that what war is about? Taking out decisive outposts and securing different checkpoints. That's exactly what capping is. I too was kinda dissapointed by this. I think what most people get is that AB is not PvP. If ur capping(which is the right way), ur fighting NPCs half the time with exceptions of fights in between shrines. This is PvE almost since anything u run here can work. If you want to actually win, that's a whole different story.
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Mar 27, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50
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#49
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über těk-nĭsh'ən
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
I understand what you are saying and I think I have the answer to why it didn't work. The change, where killing became more important, was not offset with other things becoming less important. It is hard to explain but I will do my best.
This situation is comparable to the nightfall powercreep (I hope you are familiar with this term... if not go QQ more). When nightfall was introduced, the offensive power was drastically increase. The defensive power was increased just as much. This created a "spiky" meta with TONS of passive defense and essentially killed all forms of true pressure play and crippled most forms of balance in GvG.
Increasing the importance of killing in AB to match shrine capping is essentially doing the same thing as the Nightfall powercreep. It caused a downward spiral effect on scoring (where one team could lose a match based on who won the first few skurmishes). This is not because killing gave more points, it's because capping didn't give less points (or no points).
Basically, we need to reduce the effectiveness of capping, not by increasing the effectiveness of something else, but by literaly nerfing the direct influence capping has on scoring. If we bring capping shrines down to the level of killing on the metaphorical scale of importance, we will see a promotion in skillful and balanced play.
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actually you don't understand my point at all. what i'm saying is that capping and killing are of equal importance already. AB is about as balanced as it will ever get, and there's really no point in changing it.
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Mar 27, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45
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#50
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: England
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Your last post says that there were 7 Flaws with what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
1. Statistics show that people tend to speak up more when in disagreement with someone rather than agreement. I would assume that people who currently like AB would post and view other posts in the Alliance Battle forum more often than those who don't like it.
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Sure I agree, people are more likely to moan and disagree with you than they are to agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
2. 8 track tapes are nothing like their predecessor... records.
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How ever, what was the primary purpose of their predecessor? Was it to play music or some other sort of noise? Yes it was. What is the purpose of an iPod or other MP3 player atm? To play music. I fail to see how that is a flaw with what I said. They have been developed around their core design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
3. AB is based on gaining more territory for your side (Luxon or Kurzick). Throughout history, countries in real life have gained territory by conquering other countries through warfare, not by capping more shrines than them... Capping shrines has nothing to do with the description of AB on Guildwars.com
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Well I hate to break this to you, but Guild Wars isn't the real world. I know this might come as a shock to some people, but it isn't. It is a game and in the same way all other games play in a Territory or Capture Point game, it is based on capturing set points. The Shrines, now we can relate this to the real world in the way of key features such as towns and castles, even high ground over low ground. It would still be based around capturing key locations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
4. Either you didn't read my entire post or you just a moron because you still don't understand what I mean by direct and indirect link to scoring.
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I have read your orignal post, you don't want the shrines to have a direct link to points. Instead you wish their purpose to be changed to some other thing such as increasing your killing ability, or giving moral boosts. However you claim that you do not want AB to turn into a killing fest. Explain to me how changing the shrines so that they offer you the ability to kill your enemy faster, it going to stop it from turning into a killing fest? If you claim its 'difficult' to explain what you really mean is, you can't explain it. Your idea is flawed, it contradicts its self. You cannot remove all other means of scoring from a game, leaving killing to be the only means why which to score points, then add a system by which you are able to kill the enemy more efficiently. Then hope that the game doesn't turn into a kill fest.
You also talk about the lack of balance in AB, or maybe just PvP in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
If we eliminate the direct relationship of shrines to team score, we will also expose the flaws in game balance. Because of this truth, we automatically support a scoring system that undermines these very flaws... and we think that it works.
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Isn't this like saying. "If we remove the wins from an Aeroplane then we will explore the flaws in air travel. Because of this truth, we automatically support aeroplanes with wings that undermines these very flaws... and we think that works."
Well it does work. Simple as, however if you can, please explain to me how this is a balanced game.
Lets now assume AB was changed, so that 2 Shrines offered a 10% Damage bonus, 2 offered a 10% health bonus and the other 2 offered 10% movement bonus (for this example we will carry on assuming that Death Penalty and Moral Boosts do not exist in AB).
The Luxons have captured all 6 Shrines, and the resurrection point. The Kurzicks are now trapped in their base with 12 Luxons standing outside with a 20% Speed boost, so they cannot escape and run away. A 20% Damage Bonus, and a 20% Health Bonus. There would be no way to come back from this. I would have said personally in a balanced game that there should always be a way to come back from any situation. One team shouldn't have such a large overwhelmingly large advantage over the other team. The current system which allows a small group to leave the base and cap behind the other team forcing them to move back split up and try to regain allows for this to happen. Yours does not.
Lets move to a different situation. Deep Luxon territory, the Luxons start in their base and already have 2 shrines. If everybody caps clockwise, as is normally done in AB, that would lead to the Luxons and Kurzicks meeting in 3 equal match ups of 4 v 4. We can assume for balance purposes that all the teams have 1 Monk, 1 Ele, 1 Warrior and 1 Necromancer. The Luxons would instantly have the advantage of 10% more damage and 10% more health.
I fail to see how giving shrines such a bonus would lead the game to be more balanced. However please explain to me how this would be balanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
5. Capping shrines should be a core aspect of AB. It should not be the number one priority. Defeating your enemy through combat should be just as important.
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Most games capture points games do let you score any points at all via kills. Kills are simply made in defense of your captured points (or shrines) so you can carry on getting the points for that shrine. Guild Wars has a balance of the two which I personally think is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
6. I do play GvG primarily. I think that we all can agree it is the most successful form of pvp so why not use what works well there and apply it to other aspects of pvp.
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Thats nice, when did I say you didn't play GvG? How exactly is this a flaw in what I've said? Because GvG is the most popular aspect of PvP lets make all PvP like GvG! Yes remove the variety from life. Make everything the same. PvE is by far more popular than all aspects of PvP. So lets make all PvP like PvE because PvE is far more popular!
No, you like GvG so you play GvG. You don't like AB so don't play AB. I personally like AB the way it is, why should I be forced to play AB the way GvG is played just to please you? Should a Guild Lord be added to AB as well? Maybe we should call him the Alliance Lord. What about HA and TA and RA? Should we have Guild Lords there as well? Lets make TA a smaller version of GvG because GvG is more popular.
I also suspect that RA is played far by a lot more people than GvG is, so maybe we should make all PvP Random.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator
7. AB is not popular amongst primary PvP players. The majority of people that like AB are those that play primarily PvE.
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Never said it was popular amongst the PvP players, so again this is a flaw because? Why does it need to be popular amongst the PvP players, do you not have enough places to play already?
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Mar 27, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50
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#51
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Look above you!
Guild: Knights of Apathy
Profession: A/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
actually you don't understand my point at all. what i'm saying is that capping and killing are of equal importance already. AB is about as balanced as it will ever get, and there's really no point in changing it.
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While the scoring may be theoretically balanced, in reality, it's not.
To keep it short and simple the problem is this:
It's far easier for a person to get caught up, or just plain want to, do nothing but kill and completely disregard shrine capping. However, it's pretty much impossible to do the opposite.
The scoring mechanics are not broken themselves, it's the players that are broken - there are far too many people that simply do not even try to score - they just want to get in and kill people (and before the 3 points per kill was implemented, these people did nothing to help the team win, and with the 3 points per kill, they're only moderately helping.) If these people don't bother to cap at all, the team will lose... horribly.
This is what I see happen a lot. The whole "know when to defend, when to cap, when to kill" is getting into the more advanced play of it - where your team is actually scoring, and it's a good, fun, competitive match. Those matches that end up close (like 470-470) are the good fun games.
My problems are with people that do nothing but mob/player kill, ignoring the shrine objective completely, and results in scores of 120-480.
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Mar 28, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49
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#52
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Guild: Us Are Not [leet]
Profession: E/
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X Ice Man X, you are a stubborn person. There is no sense in arguing with a stubborn person, especially on a forum, because you will hear what you want to hear, and not what I am actually saying. You zoom in closely on certain pieces of what I said, without standing back and viewing the big picture. A prime example of this is when you went off on how we could change everything to GvG and basically made yourself sound ridiculous. Any normal functioning human being would realise that by taking successes of things that worked, and using them as inspiration to improve things that are less successful, we ultimately have a greater chance at success. I don't want all PvP to be exactly like GvG. I want all PvP to be as fun as GvG and to have the success GvG has had since the release... that is all. I am predicting that you will come back and say, "AB is a success bah blah blah... I like AB and I know a lot of other people do... blah blah blah." The fact of the matter is, It took me 10 minutes of countdown timer reset in AB last night because of how unpopular AB is. Something needs to be changed because, you know what, in relation to other parts of the game, AB is crap. I could go back and counter everything you said... AGAIN but it would be a complete waste of time and most of it would be redundant.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Why are people talking about "kill fests." I swear if i hear that term or any variation of that term spoke about again in this thread I'm going to scream.
Removing the moral meter, or greatly decreasing its influence, is not meant to and will never turn AB into a kill fest. The point of doing this is to make the buffs of the shrines still important and influential to match tactics and play but not a direct link to your score. You will still have to cap shrines to win, but ultimately, build synergy and tactical capping will be moved to the forefront to replace cycling through shrines during the course of an entire match.
Last edited by Brian the Gladiator; Mar 28, 2008 at 05:43 AM // 05:43..
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Mar 28, 2008, 10:13 AM // 10:13
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#53
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Krytan Explorer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
actually you don't understand my point at all. what i'm saying is that capping and killing are of equal importance already. AB is about as balanced as it will ever get, and there's really no point in changing it.
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Well, if there was someway to have a TA version of AB instead of 3 randomly chosen teams, I think PvPers would play it more often. I know this idea has its flaws and it goes against everything Anet made AB to stand for, but it would definately improve tactical play in AB, or at least weed out the jokers(aka, the people who suicide on the base defender for fun) and the leechers.
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Mar 28, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38
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#54
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
X Ice Man X, you are a stubborn person.
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That I am, extremely stubborn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
There is no sense in arguing with a stubborn person, especially on a forum, because you will hear what you want to hear, and not what I am actually saying. You zoom in closely on certain pieces of what I said, without standing back and viewing the big picture.
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I've read your posts, and looked at them from as many different ways that I can. Each time you've said that I am not understanding. Maybe you need to think about the idea more and remove the flaws and contradictions that are in it and make it more clear what you want.
When suggesting changes that should be made, you need to "zoom in closely" on every bit of it to find the problems that may occur. Just looking at the big picture something such as this will only cause problems.
If there is a big black blob in the middle of my TV, I could say I'll stand back and look at the big picture so I can still see what is going on. Yes but that still doesn't remove the black blob in the middle of the picture. I doubt anybody would consider that a solution and problem solved.
I didn't realise we were arguing, I thought that this was a discussion. We haven’t started to yell abuse at each other yet. I have just pointed that AB is fine the way it is at the moment. The changes that you have suggested would only unbalance the game, and change it into a killing fest. Which you seem to be in denial about.
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Mar 28, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03
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#55
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator
reintroduce 12 man parties, and make this game fun again.
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There is a couple of reason 12 man parties isn't a good idea
1. It promotes mobbing. Being in a large group gives a sense of security and keeps the players from capping. No one wants to be out of range for an ally, especially when there is a huge mob of the other color ready to sweep them up.
2.The fact that its harder to interact with other allies outside the 4 man team system allows the team far greater mobility when capping shrines. More attention is given to the members of the 4 person team.
3. Starting out the 12 man system in AB will require the entire team to be together, which as stated before, causes mobbing. If the 12 members were split, they will eventually aggregate and the result is still a mob.
4. AB is on the lowest tier of PvP. It's always best to play well in a small group before moving up to larger groups of teammates just to allow people to get a feel of PvP or a build they are working on.
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Mar 28, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29
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#56
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbobusa
That is great...
...on paper.
If you lower the impact of shrines and make it on part with killing, that WILL turn into a kill fest.
The only thing that stops AB from being a complete one atm is that shrines are more important.
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QFT. If Anet has to change one thing in AB, its replacing the word BATTLE in ALLIANCE BATTLE to something that is more appropriate.
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Mar 29, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10
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#57
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: Guildless
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
QFT. If Anet has to change one thing in AB, its replacing the word BATTLE in ALLIANCE BATTLE to something that is more appropriate.
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I don't get it, "battles" and "fighting" are not just about killing people, and there is killing in AB, but capping as well, your basicly battling for shrines.
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Mar 29, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31
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#58
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Delayed in order to meet ANet's high standards
Guild: [MaSS]
Profession: W/E
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Key locations never mattered in warfare.
EDIT: /sarcasm. Just to be sure.
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Mar 30, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18
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#59
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2007
Profession: W/N
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12 vs 12 all rush to middle where 1 cap shrine is.
King of the hill style.
that would please me.
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Mar 30, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53
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#60
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Guest
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I think it should stay pretty much the same as it is now. The only change I would make is that it actually becomes ALLIANCE battles. (IE: [CAT] vs [any] 12v12 etc. This would actually make owning a town more of an achievement if other methods were nerfed in some way to make this the only viable way to successfully earn faction for your alliance.
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