Curse

C2K · May 16, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent

That skill balance was one of the greatest ones in recent times.

I agree. The only part of that balance that could have really effected PvE was the Song and Ballad nerf as well, otherwise everything else was still viable. It was a sad day when it got reverted.

Jeydra · May 22, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

You raise a good point, and this was something I was just talking to Silmor about in guild chat. Before, you can literally use PvE as a training ground for PvP. I told a little story about how I first learned about projectile attacks from tundra giants in the droks run, and how I "cleverly" moved behind a rock to stop those attacks while blasting away with my ele's non-line-of-sight spells. Things like that don't happen anymore. Why would you need any sort of clever maneuver when you can c-space with SY or hit 1234 on recharge in ursan?

Yeah, Silmor convinced me too that this change is for the worse. Looking at the soon-to-come changelogs I see three big problems:

1. The PvP / PvE split. I don't agree that any PvP'er who wants to PvE will have to sacrifice their feel for the game, because PvP being inherently harder also makes you a better player - and so the PvP'er will learn to adapt, to change and to utilize PvE skills effectively. What I see as the major problem is the reverse transition, from PvE to PvP. It's going to be terrible. A PvE player abusing the 20-second Ether Renewal will suddenly find his favorite PvE builds useless. In fact he's going to get flamed - I've already seen this happen in RA where another guy goes 'do you have any other skills in your build [aside from Stone Daggers]?!?!?'. The player will find it hard to acclimatize to PvP, especially if he's alone. Chances are he'll trade his faction for ZKeys and go straight back to PvE.

For PvP players doing the reverse, it's a lot more benign because PvE is by nature a lot more forgiving. If what you're doing doesn't work, it's OK, you can always go again. If you're worried you might be flamed, you can play with heroes / henchmen. You can't in PvP. If there's no new blood to PvP, PvP will die out too.

2. PvE players live on a bed of roses. I don't mean to insult them, I play quite a bit of PvE myself. But it's only fair to say that PvE is a lot easier compared to PvP. Yes, some HM Dungeons can be hard, as can some HM missions ... but considering that PvE players have access to numerous imbalanced PvE skills (There's Nothing To Fear! Save Yourselves! Ebon Battle Standard of Courage, Ursan Blessing) as well as access to consumables, PvE is just easier than PvP. A change like making LoD cooldown 6 seconds is going to make PvE even easier, but so what? PvE players don't need a buffed LoD. They have more than enough resources already (I can testify to that, seeing I've done very many HM dungeons with heroes / henchmen and not resorting to PvE skills, consets and displaying titles).

The way I see it, the various buffs to PvE skills are only going to make skill even rarer a commodity in the PvE community. Yes, there are good PvE players around, but I was in a PvE guild for more than a year and I know there are terrible PvE players around too. This Monk I knew used to run Healer's Boon / Healing Breeze / Heal Area / Blessed Signet [she thought it worked on Healer's Boon] / Ethereal Light. We attempted to do Slaver's Exile HM once with two healing Monks and no Prot, resulting in a terrible wipe, but the team simply weren't aware why. They come up with all sorts of reasons, but they don't know that the more difficult the area, the more valuable Protection spells become.

I agree with Silmor that the AI change to make monsters run out of AoE was a great one, it made PvE a bit more challenging and forced PvE players to come up with new builds and tactics. But the soon-to-come changes are only going to make PvE players worse at the game. They don't need to improve, they have even more imbalanced skills to exploit now, so why bother?

3. The balance changes are all aimed at GvG. GvG's a format of play I'm not very familiar with; I mostly know RA / TA. Problem is, there're a lot of imbalanced skills in RA / TA at the moment. There're so many that there're less than 5 viable team builds in TA. Stuff like Signet of Midnight / Plague Sending, Wail of Doom, Shattering Assault ... they make it such that you either run them in TA or die. And it's not a matter of skill. A few days ago I was in TA with some friends, we ran Monk / Weapon of Remedy Ritualist / 2x Warriors. We did quite well against most teams, but against the so-called balanced TA team right now (Monk with Shield Bash / Magebane Ranger / WoD Foul Feast Necro / War) we lost even though the Magebane Ranger landed about 2 interrupts the entire 6-minute game, and even though we fought the entire battle about an obelisk shrine which we'd capped. Imbalance.

I'm ranting a little, but the essential point is that TA is quite insufferable at the moment. RA teams that make it to TA have no chance, while teams that form in TA have to resort to gimmick to earn Gladiator points. TA is sad, yet nothing's being done. All the game balance are aimed at GvG.

I'm really sad at the moment. Guild Wars as I know it is dying tomorrow. I just hope beyond hope that this experiment will fail. Please.

******

@holymasamune - you say you're quitting PvE, I'm seriously thinking about quitting PvP. The only PvP I really know is RA / TA (and to a lesser extent AB, but AB is certainly the least serious of PvP), and with the state as it is I'm really sad and angry, yet Izzy shows no love to it. Maybe it's just better that I go back to the PvE guild and enjoy painless fun and imbalanced skills again ...

DreamWind · May 22, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@holymasamune - you say you're quitting PvE, I'm seriously thinking about quitting PvP.

Most smart people have already done that. Hell, nowadays I only play PvP to reminisce about the greatness of Guild Wars past with friends.

CE Devilman · May 22, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

sure...all bad players are pve....

LockerLoad · May 25, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

This update is total crap. Is it really possible that people are having difficulty completing PVE campaigns?

I and many others completed Prophecies with no problem. Factions brought Kurzik/luxon skills like SY. Nightfall brought us heroes. EOTN gave us Ursan.

The PVE aspect of this game wouldn't be daunting with only 4 skills on my bar. Why not just add a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing win button?

The duality of skill functions will only serve to divide the community further and erode the base of players that participate in both aspects.

I've gotta agree with the OP, this update will ruin the feel I have for the game.

I know I'm starting to sound just a teensie bit repetitive but here goes again:

/commence rant

This is the latest footshooting escapade for ArenaNet. They've decided to sacrifice fun and playability for weak players and socalled cyber-atheletes.

Power creep has eroded the balance that made this game fun. A-Net has abandoned the faithful in an attempt to create a cyber-sport for those pasty lard-arse nerds who enjoy counting 3,2,1 in unison on vent.

PVE skills didn't fix the problems.

Weekly nerf/buff cycles won't fix the problems.

Alternate PVE/PVP skill functions won't fix the problems

Barring a rollback to prophecies, there is no way to repair the imbalances that poorly tested class/skill additions have brought to my favorite game.

/end rant

Riotgear · May 25, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

This update is total crap. Is it really possible that people are having difficulty completing PVE campaigns?

I and many others completed Prophecies with no problem. Factions brought Kurzik/luxon skills like SY. Nightfall brought us heroes. EOTN gave us Ursan.

Actually SY and the rest of the PvE skills were added in their own update. Factions brought hitting level 20 in 3 hours, a few good skills (mostly monk skills and Dragon Slash) and a lot of trash.

Quote:

The PVE aspect of this game wouldn't be daunting with only 4 skills on my bar. Why not just add a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing win button?

There is, Ursan Blessing, which is why the whole notion of PvE balance is absurd at the moment.

LockerLoad · May 25, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

I intended sarcasm regarding the win button Riot gear, notice I referenced Ursan.

I know that SY and other PVE only Kurzik/Luxon skills weren't added at factions release. I merely meant that they were linked to that expansion(you must own factions to use them).

jaeharys targaryen · May 25, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Personally, i disagree with the "feel" idea, though thats may have to be with how i pve and pvp. I dont respect pve with my builds:

[Shadow [email protected]]
[Save [email protected]]
[Spiteful [email protected]]
[Savannah [email protected]]
etc. I'd be willing to say, that, for monks, and maybe some other classes, the feel thing is definitive. But for someone who frontlines and plays rits in PvP and mainly just takes shits on pve for easy gold (and i'd be willing to venture that a good amount of players fall into this demographic), the changes are welcome.