Curse

MisterT69 · May 12, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Now why does everyone have to QQ? You're not A-net. You don't know the full reason why. Sure some PVE farmers complained, but it's honestly annoying noticing how effective spike builds and stuff work for PVP that they have to be nerfed to the point where PVE'ers never touch those skills. This update will make the skills nerfed by some PVP builds (probably most from HA ex: [energizing wind] ) useful again in PVE

wilderness · May 12, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

What kind of bullshit is this?

I can understand your worry, and definitely get that skills becoming reflex based on their 'feel' is an important part of GWs play, but I'm pretty sure you'll adapt to the changes fast enough.

As PvP and PvE both have an entirely different feel about them regardless of skills, just knowing your skills in PvE to the point of reflex has never been enough for an instant leap (in terms of player ability) between the two modes.

Ergo: Skills are balanced all the time and we adapt well, as the two modes differ so much I doubt you'll confuse your reflex to the point of detriment to your play.

DreamWind · May 12, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

I actually do believe that this will help a lot of new players break into PvP or have players migrate over into GW2 due to it comming with full UAX from the start. Now players (like when GW was first released) will not have to spend any time in raising a character and gathering equipment or unlocks to be able to PvP on an equal character as someone who has played the game for a while.

That was one of the biggest drawbacks to GW1 NOT having the PvP audience it could have.

The UAX sounds good of course...but we haven't had indication that GW2 will even have good PvP. All we know about is "world PvP" which sounds like glorified AB to me.

Most importantly, we haven't had any indication that Anet has learned many lessons from GW1. They still haven't shown how to balance, they still haven't fixed many formats, and they still continue to make updates that choke PvP from mainstream. How can we expect them to do anything different in their next installment? You've got to think that PvP is going to be like a minigame compared to the massive PvE in GW2...I can't see anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Because many PvPers have and like to use PvE characters, Z-keys means I'm making money while having fun, sure it's just 5K, but it's a sweet deal compared to wasting time by farming.

Yea but why should we NEED money? That is my problem. Also to be honest, your farming comment gives me a disturbing thought. Z-keys are a way that Anet is basically turning PvP into farming (like everything else in their game).

Greedy Gus · May 13, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Most importantly, we haven't had any indication that Anet has learned many lessons from GW1. They still haven't shown how to balance, they still haven't fixed many formats, and they still continue to make updates that choke PvP from mainstream. How can we expect them to do anything different in their next installment? You've got to think that PvP is going to be like a minigame compared to the massive PvE in GW2...I can't see anything else.

Indeed. The most damning evidence so far is that their new engine (which is the main excuse used as to why they need to make GW2 instead of just fixing problems in the original) doesn't allow click-to-move, because it doesn't mesh with jumping/z-axis or something silly. Sure we can't pass judgement before seeing it, but that doesn't sound like they're really looking at making a great competitive pvp title.

And if JR isn't pursuing the CR position at a-net, they should be pursuing him. Giving you the benefit of the doubt (that you truly believe what you're saying), you have an amazing ability to spin information to positively represent one side.

Riotgear · May 13, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Indeed. The most damning evidence so far is that their new engine (which is the main excuse used as to why they need to make GW2 instead of just fixing problems in the original) doesn't allow click-to-move, because it doesn't mesh with jumping/z-axis or something silly.

The nice thing about a purely-2D movement system is that you can represent the world as a bunch of 2D regions, and pathing requires nothing more than finding a chain of regions to navigate through, and walking along the corners of the regions.

Pathing in true 3D environments is much messier, enemies are usually "on rails" through a pathnode network if they're faced with any non-trivial movement. Handling obstacles in such an environment is not trivial, there are some pretty simple workarounds for monsters (especially since they only need to HIT available positions, not necessarily move all the way there), for players though, it's a lot of extra work.

Let's just say there's a reason that WoW's enemies tend to hit you from unusual positions and have "Evade" mode when they can't. Besides, if you're in a world where jumping has any sort of meaningful use, then it's going to be hurdling obstacles you're not going to get past with click-move anyway, so get used to WASD.

DarkNecrid · May 13, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

The UAX sounds good of course...but we haven't had indication that GW2 will even have good PvP. All we know about is "world PvP" which sounds like glorified AB to me.

They've already confirmed a Structured PvP akin to GvG.

urania · May 13, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The most damning evidence so far is that their new engine (which is the main excuse used as to why they need to make GW2 instead of just fixing problems in the original) doesn't allow click-to-move

that part makes me a sad panda...

*shudders*

GW without click-to-move is just..wrong.

Div · May 13, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

We are missing the 'message' of the OP:
Div wants to leave PvE...and I don't want him too..

If he goes, alot of his gaming experiences, and advice will be lost...and I for one kinda liked it.

More like my bad builds

Quote:

(If your yanking our chains, I'm going to kick your butt Div!)

/hides

Jenn · May 13, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

that part makes me a sad panda...

*shudders*

GW without click-to-move is just..wrong.

I know a guy who had his "click-to-move" turned off, and when I tried to chastise him about it, he had no idea what I was talking about...

Shuuda · May 13, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Z-keys are a way that Anet is basically turning PvP into farming

No, farming tends to be boring and repetitive, something most people do because they don't know any other way to make.

PvP is fun, and not repetitive(or not as repetitive at least).

Quote:

Yea but why should we NEED money?

Equipment for PvE character, and naturally the vanity item.

LaserLight · May 13, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Note, first of all, that I’ve only read the first page and a half of this mess. I just had a massive fight with a guildie over this issue and felt I need to vent, so I came to post in that which started the fight.

*Watches ninety-seven percent of readers go to next post now*

Sweetness, less screeching when I'm done.

Anyways. I am one of those apparently very rare players who likes to run PvE and PvP, when applicable, with the same set of skills, if I can’t get away with the same bar. I do not use PvE-only skills and, in fact, consider them in-game cheats for people without the brains to take their pants off before going to the bathroom. That said, my Toxic Chill DA-usin’ Necromancer is both a force to be reckoned with in lower-end PvP (RA, TA, AB), an absolute murder machine in PvE (go five-second TC recharge!), and by far my favorite character. Mostly because Toxic Chill is amazing, but hey.

My major issue with this update is that it really does propose to divide the game into two mutually exclusive games. Guild Wars’ PvP/PvE unity had already taken a nasty hit in GWEN, with such things as super-powerful consumables and PvE-only skills which were massively overpowered. As far as I’m concerned, Ursan Blessing is a blight upon all of Guild Wars and should not exist. And now…now, Izzy, in all his infinite wisdom, is proposing to, potentially, make every skill in Guild Wars PvE-only.

You know what I want? I want a button in my Options panel that says “Turn off PvE upgrades to PvP skills” if this godforsaken attempt to Jekel and Hyde the game goes through. Using Toxic Chill as an example: what if Toxic Chill was deemed to be underpowered for PvP and given a damage bonus of, say, thirty points, just for the sake of argument, and given some kind of easier trigger for its poison. I know it’d never happen, but bear with me here.

Me, I like the current Toxic Chill just fine and think that it works pretty alright where it’s supposed to. And if given a choice, I would continue to use the weaker, but universally identical/useful Toxic Chill in my PvE build so that when I took Ryn into AB with the guys in NOVA, I could run (mostly) the same thing I’m used to and not feel like I’m permanently under some form of narsty-arse hex. But the system, as described, wouldn’t let me use the skill I actually wanted to use, only the skill it thought I wanted to use. I cannot stand builds that rely on PvE-only skills and would gladly trade the extra cheesiness for something I could take anywhere I wanted to go, but if this goes through then I can’t. Not unless I use a constantly decreasing pool of skills which don’t have a split personality.

And let’s face it, if Anet goes through with this, PvE will never see a skill update again. What we’ll see is a first pilot run of four or five Jekel&Hyde skills, and then the Anet people will be watching like hawks. If the general public is against the skills, they’ll be reverted back to only having their weaker, PvP form and that’s that. All’s well that ends well. But if the general public is in favor of Jekel&Hyde skills…

Then, a month or so after the system implements, we’ll see a skill update in which hundreds of skills are reverted back to their most overpowered PvE forms, because no longer will skill updates have to function in both environments. It doesn’t matter that Light of Deliverance at a hundred health every five seconds broke red engine go out of PvP, because the PvP version still bites. It doesn’t matter that Dagger Mastery can actually kill something again, because daggers are still teh ultimet suk in PvP. It won’t matter what they do to make the player Odin the Allfather in PvE so that he can get his rocks off on whatever power fantasy do jour he missed the most, because it won’t affect the hundred thousand frickin’ dollar competitive tournaments that the game was originally designed for. And once Anet is satisfied that they’ve appeased the loudmouthed, brainless PvE jackasses who apparently just can't live without being able to clear entire mobs of enemies in two shots, they will never bother touching PvE again because apparently every PvE player I talk to wants a skill pool which is static, unchanging, and as monumentally broken as they can manage.

And if we don't see that, what we'll see is that all further skill updates will be PvP-only. Which means that any skill updated for the first time since the Jekel&Hyde update will become unusable to guys like me that hate PvE-only skills, which is what every new 'PvP-Only' update creates. And this will, eventually, create the same problem as doing the mess all at once - the number of skills which have the same effect no matter where the red engine go you are will be negligible, and they will only be that way because they're already so crappy that nobody cares about them anyways. Things such as Otyugh's Cry or the much-maligned Power Attack come to mind.

And frankly, if I wanted to use Otyugh's Cry and Power Attack, I'd be doing so. And everyone I played with would slap me silly, and rightly so. Which means I either play PvE-only skills, and thus be forced to create builds I can never use competitively even though the competitive versions of most of those skills work JUST FINE in most PvE, or stop playing PvE altogether.

Or, the most likely alternative? Stop playing this screwed-up game altogether and find something more constructive to do with my time.

JR · May 13, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

And if JR isn't pursuing the CR position at a-net, they should be pursuing him. Giving you the benefit of the doubt (that you truly believe what you're saying), you have an amazing ability to spin information to positively represent one side.

I am positive enough about Anets ideas and plans for Guild Wars 2 to look past current blunders, oversights and lack of attention.

Whilst I do spend a lot of time criticising them, more often than not it is for the message that they give - not the things that they do. For two recent examples:

- The skill balance reversion. At the time it caused a lot of negativity, with people not knowing what to think of Anets future plans or if it indicated a shift in focus. If they had explained at the time that it was due to a coming change in balance approach that would benefit both PvE and PvP players it would have gone down a whole lot better. They didn't need to give specifics or details, just a reason.

- The ZKey title. If they had explained their goals and intentions with the title upon its announcement they could have avoided the initial tsunami of whining. Instead it took about four million page threads for people to eventually decide that it was 'ok'.

This may seem fairly trivial to some, but this kind of mistake repeated again and again over the lifespan of a game creates an unhealthy community and pushes people away. It shakes the communities trust in the developer and creates negativity.

I understand and agree with the design teams intentions of both of the examples, but neither was executed particularly well, and could have been vastly improved upon with some community input.

This indicates two things to me:

The design department has still has a focus on improving Guild Wars 1, and probably will do for a while yet. They are still adding bits and pieces to improve the game and give people things to do.

The community department has barely any/no focus on Guild Wars 1 what so ever. They don't care to be invovled in the design process to represent the opinions of the community, and aren't even bothered about communicating and explaining changes to the game to the community. Instead it is left up to us to assume their motivation and intentions, which unsurprisingly is sceptical and jaded. They seem happy to do nothing to help this situation, and instead focus on a game that is not yet even in beta.

On one hand I am happy for the focus on Guild Wars 2. I am fairly confident that they have the right team to make a great product that is a true successor to the original. I believe (looking at how the game has evolved) that they have learned the good and the bad of the Guild Wars design model, and how to improve on it. I am looking forward to it eagerly, and have no doubt that I will enjoy it immensly.

On the other hand I am dissapointed that the current community, which is also quite a large chunk of their future community, is experiencing such neglect. It's not been going on for long and is easy to ignore, but there is little indication that it will change.

It's mostly dissapointing because I had such high hopes for the new Community Manager and that she may empower her colleagues to be more proactive in the current community. After the struggles of dealing with Gaile and the damage she did it seemed like Anet finally understood the importance of community management. I am not questioning the current community team's ability to do the job, but they certainly aren't showing any improvement over the Gray regime yet - at a time where I personally think it would be quite important.

As such I find myself compelled to do what I can to fill the gap, mostly because it comes naturally to me - having worked in community relations in the past. It frustrates me to see needless drama and whining that could often have been avoided with simple explanations. An oversight so fundamental that surely Anet is above by now, right? Community relations should always be heavily involved in design. I do not consider myself a fanboy or an evangelist, and often enough I criticise Anet as much as I praise them, but I feel (as a developer) they are misrepresented to the community and put in an unfairly negative light. They have an excellent team of developers working on a truly impressive product that has managed to break away from the norm, but their public face has always been lacking.

Balance updates are a prime example. It has become standard practice to point fingers at Izzy and the other designers for their 'swing and a miss' approach at improving the game balance. What most people don't understand is that it's an unequivocal part of the community teams job to be involved changes like that - to influence the decisions made in favor of community feedback to get the desired result. That is what has been lacking up until now, though admittedly it hasn't been the only contribution to that issue.

The community team is putting all of their eggs in the Guild Wars 2 basket, and forgetting that the player base they already have is the foundation for that. It is damaging from a community aspect, and just as importantly from a design aspect.

Krill · May 13, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

I've noticed more people in RA / TA and frankly don't care if they are only there to farm balth for the z-title, all that matters is there are more players interested in PvP. Everyone knows this game needs a shot in the leg and maybe this will help, even though the title in of itself is stupid and gay.

Lorekeeper · May 13, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I predict the next update will be a revert of the revert they did to some of the good PvP skill changes last month. But not all at once because, you know, that would be too much to assimilate for people who play PvE and PvP. lawl.

Random ones like Energy Surge, Energy Burn and maybe Splinter Weapon.

Then a week later, a few more of them, then a week later the last few. Until a month later in June we have the same PvP skill balance state that we had for the month of April.

DarkNecrid · May 13, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I predict the next update will be a revert of the revert they did to some of the good PvP skill changes last month. But not all at once because, you know, that would be too much to assimilate for people who play PvE and PvP. lawl.

Random ones like Energy Surge, Energy Burn and maybe Splinter Weapon.

Then a week later, a few more of them, then a week later the last few. Until a month later in June we have the same PvP skill balance state that we had for the month of April.

I am willing to take that bet.

C2K · May 13, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I've noticed more people in RA / TA and frankly don't care if they are only there to farm balth for the z-title, all that matters is there are more players interested in PvP. Everyone knows this game needs a shot in the leg and maybe this will help, even though the title in of itself is stupid and gay.

Perhaps the Zaishen title might encourage PvP(though its a buyable title, so its not really a PvP title in my opinion). However, once they split the skills, its going to screw up the "casual gamer", so in the end I think it will not effect the growth of PvP that much.

DreamWind · May 14, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Yea...maybe with this update they can finally go back to Prophecies only.

(ok probably not)

audioaxes · May 15, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

why play pve anyway?

Greedy Gus · May 15, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Let's just say there's a reason that WoW's enemies tend to hit you from unusual positions and have "Evade" mode when they can't. Besides, if you're in a world where jumping has any sort of meaningful use, then it's going to be hurdling obstacles you're not going to get past with click-move anyway, so get used to WASD.

I may be dense, but didn't quite understand where you were coming from on this post. I don't think I have unreal expectations that click-to-move should work in full 3-D (especially in pve environments that utilize it well). Rather, I am worried that keyboard-only control won't work well in 8v8 competitive melee-based pvp.

Unless they really have something up their sleeves to combat latency issues, the precision of click-to-move is really the savior for the format. FPS games can typically get away with slightly imprecise movement as they're mostly based on ranged aim, but it really matters in a game like GW where you have essentially a 10-16 player clusterf*ck where relative movement and positioning are massively important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I do not consider myself a fanboy or an evangelist, and often enough I criticise Anet as much as I praise them, but I feel (as a developer) they are misrepresented to the community and put in an unfairly negative light.

Nah I definitely can see where you're coming from, and at the very least I think it adds a more interesting dynamic to the forum environment where most people give in to the easy temptation to 'pile-on' (I'm definitely guilty here).

isamu kurosawa · May 15, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

why play pve anyway?

Because its a decent part of the game that a large number of players enjoy?

Someone could ask the same of pvp and get the same response.