Curse

JR · May 12, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

In Anets shoes I would have done it entirely differently.

I would have raised the level cap in PvE to 30 with the release of EotN, working retroactively so most people would hit it straight away. In PvP zones your max level would still be 20, and attribute cap 12 (16 with runes), though in PvE zones you would be able to raise attributes beyond that to (for example) 20 (22 with runes).

If could then be balanced so that skills were in line with each other at 16, acceptable in balance terms for PvP, but could go nuts afterwards. Taking Splinter Weapon as an example - it could effect up to 3 adjacent foes at 16, but up to 5 at 22, whilst also increasing in damage.

More work, but it would have been infinately less confusing and a much more elegant solution. I hope they follow a simmilar model to this in GW2, rather than again splitting skills into two different pools.

Orange Milk · May 12, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

THis whole thing is further proof that ANet has focused all their attention to PvE. Here are some recent examples:

1) PvP no longer gets real world prizes
2) For Unlocks in GW2 you MUST grind out PvE titles and equipt PvE armors/weapons into the HoM
3) Introduction of dozens of uber leet PvE Only skills
4) New odd ball Zashien Title that allows anyone to easily get an emote (thats not an "elite PvP" comment I'm just saying PvE Only people have wanted emotes forever and ANet has now made one that can be easily attained is all, I am in no way saying "It's not fair blablahblah Emotes are for PvP only blah blah)
5) Now this Spearation of skills to make skill balances not effect PvE

Nothing major has happened to further PvP.
Infact much of the above has moved players away from PvP aswell as GWs in general.

isamu kurosawa · May 12, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

In Anets shoes I would have done it entirely differently.

I would have raised the level cap in PvE to 30 with the release of EotN, working retroactively so most people would hit it straight away. In PvP zones your max level would still be 20, and attribute cap 12 (16 with runes), though in PvE zones you would be able to raise attributes beyond that to (for example) 20 (22 with runes).

If could then be balanced so that skills were in line with each other at 16, acceptable in balance terms for PvP, but could go nuts afterwards. Taking Splinter Weapon as an example - it could effect up to 3 adjacent foes at 16, but up to 5 at 22, whilst also increasing in damage.

More work, but it would have been infinately less confusing and a much more elegant solution. I hope they follow a simmilar model to this in GW2, rather than again splitting skills into two different pools.

If they went down that path i'd prefer it to be a pve skill that raises your attributes by X for x duration rather than raise the level cap. That way there would be no change to game mechanics at all.

JR · May 12, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

1) PvP no longer gets real world prizes

They couldn't keep doing that forever. Guild Wars is an old game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

2) For Unlocks in GW2 you MUST grind out PvE titles and equipt PvE armors/weapons into the HoM

No. They have stated that GW2 will release with UAX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

3) Introduction of dozens of uber leet PvE Only skills

Er. Show me a PvPer that cares about those skills?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

4) New odd ball Zashien Title that allows anyone to easily get an emote (thats not an "elite PvP" comment I'm just saying PvE Only people have wanted emotes forever and ANet has now made one that can be easily attained is all, I am in no way saying "It's not fair blablahblah Emotes are for PvP only blah blah)

The Zaishen title was designed as a way of giving PvP players a source of revenue. It serves that purpose very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

5) Now this Spearation of skills to make skill balances not effect PvE

Which also allows PvP balance to be more finely and regularly tuned.

Please think your posts through.

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Yeah if anything the Zaishen title is basically a guarenteed way to make the guest/invite/guild hall/whatever costs become nil. Even if you only snag 100 RP from the Xunlai Tournament House (and not AT), that's still 20 keys, which is 100k.

DutchSmurf · May 12, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

No. They have stated that GW2 will release with UAX.

Think he meant the unknown things we will get with the HoM, not skillunlocks. Where he has a point, since I doubt many (if any) people can fill that part with PvP titles.

JR · May 12, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Think he meant the unknown things we will get with the HoM, not skillunlocks. Where he has a point, since I doubt many (if any) people can fill that part with PvP titles.

If it's anything more than a basic unlock (prestige armor/skins/mini pets) then I really fail to see how it matters at all.

Orange Milk · May 12, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

@ JR

1) No reason why RW prizes could not have gone on forever, unless you count a change of focus i.e. GW2 and the HoM <---PvE related

2) See Dutch Smurfs post,

3) PvPers don't care about them, never said they did, It's simply an example of my point that ANets focus has turned to PvE

4) I honestly doubt ANet Devs sat down at a meeting and said "let's make a title that sets up PvPers a way to sell stuff to PvEers" They may have figured on PvPers selling keys, but I doubt the design was intent for this.

5) This has come about becasue there are more PvEers than PvPers and ANet is looking to satisfy the larger player base, being able to regulate the PvP skills better is an awsome side effect, just like money from selling keys. They know that there skills that need buffed/nefed but can't/won't touch them for fear of back lash from a large portion of the player base.

Please, think before you post, because you can't honestly feel that ANet is balancing its time equally between PvP and PvE OR even is even paying as much attention to PvP as it used to.

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

*grabs popcorn and waits for the epic ownage*

btw the reason why they stopped giving out money is probably because they dont have the money to give....

snaek · May 12, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Please, think before you post, because you can't honestly feel that ANet is balancing its time equally between PvP and PvE OR even is even paying as much attention to PvP as it used to.

half-true i think
yes, they have done a lot wit pve recently, so naturally less time can be spent towards pvp
but, i think the attention is fairly more balanced now (maybe jus a lil bit more on the pve side)
as opposed to before, where they focused heavily on pvp, and little on pve

and real world prizes stopped most likely cuz anet doesnt have the budget to spend on em
pvp tournaments doesnt attract new players into gw
it attracts those experienced players that can win, who already own all 4 games
new pve content can attract existing gw players (new and old) who only own 1 of the games to buy the other games

i think anets decision to make both nitefall and eotn very pve-oriented was a smart move on anets part, business-wise
when factions came out, it was more pvp-based
wit the disclaimer that: 'owning only 1 of the campaigns wont put u at a disadvantage in pvp'
everyone disproved that...
so they knew the serious pvp'rs would buy nitefall and eotn regardless, even if it was heavily pve-oriented

now if u look at the whole equation,
anet's current income is mostly commin from pve'rs
and their potential future income is mostly from pve'rs
so wouldnt it make more sense to focus on pve a bit more?

they've already pretty much milked all the money they can from pvp'rs

that, plus time/attention is a bit of an illusion when it comes to pve and pvp
pve'rs want new content and new toys to play wit
pvp'rs want improved gameplay and balance
so it appears that pve updates r big, while pvp updates appear small

oh, and the only reason to keep pvp'rs happy now is for gw2 loyalty
(that and maybe cuz they're not heartless bastards without a conscience)
and even if they do let pvp die to crap...
the uninformed will jus go, 'oh its not cuz anet doesnt care bout us anymore, its that they're spending all their focus on gw2" and will buy gw2 anyways

the main point of this whole post: theres no point to spend time and effort on sumptin that isnt bringin in money (from a business pov)
if anet does indeed follow that tho...they're pretty much aholes

JR · May 12, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

@ JR

1) No reason why RW prizes could not have gone on forever, unless you count a change of focus i.e. GW2 and the HoM <---PvE related

Considering Guild Wars 2 is probably going to have much more success as a PvP title I don't see how that is valid.

RW prizes cost Anet a significant amount. That is not something they can keep on doing indefinately whilst still also sinking money into development. Saying that it indicates a shift to PvE focus is just silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

2) See Dutch Smurfs post,

See my response to his post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

3) PvPers don't care about them, never said they did, It's simply an example of my point that ANets focus has turned to PvE

So Anet developing something for the PvE side automatically indicates a shift in focus...? Not really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

4) I honestly doubt ANet Devs sat down at a meeting and said "let's make a title that sets up PvPers a way to sell stuff to PvEers" They may have figured on PvPers selling keys, but I doubt the design was intent for this.

It was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

5) This has come about becasue there are more PvEers than PvPers and ANet is looking to satisfy the larger player base, being able to regulate the PvP skills better is an awsome side effect, just like money from selling keys. They know that there skills that need buffed/nefed but can't/won't touch them for fear of back lash from a large portion of the player base.

This has come about due to the conflicts caused by skill balance, and allows Anet to balance the PvP side of the game more actively without disrupting PvE players too much. Again, I fail to see how this indicates a shift in focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Please, think before you post, because you can't honestly feel that ANet is balancing its time equally between PvP and PvE OR even is even paying as much attention to PvP as it used to.

Look at the developments since release. Observer mode, purchasable UAS (and all its developments), purchasable item unlock packs, PvP character improvement and the introduction of the J menu, automated tournaments and their development... I could go on. Anet has consistantly put effort into both sides of this game, and PvP has definately had it's fair share of attention. If anything skill balance has suffered, but that should be less of a problem with the recent change in approach.

Your points are just opinion and spin on Anets actions without any basis or sound reasoning. If you are trying to prove that Anet don't care about PvP then you are clearly neglecting to take into account everything they have done.

Orange Milk · May 12, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

@JR

Quote:

RW prizes cost Anet a significant amount. That is not something they can keep on doing indefinately whilst still also sinking money into development. Saying that it indicates a shift to PvE focus is just silly

Your fooling yourself if you think ANet paid full price for the prizes. Some if not all of the money would have been donated by Amazon as sponership money and writen off by the company. In the mean time how many hits a day does the GW site get? How many copies of GW are out there?(sure some people have more than one copy and some are inactive) Anyway It's a huge, diverse market base. It's part of a marketing Plan by Amazon to garner advertisement and draw people to their site. They hope GW people see their name and visit their site, they also hope the prize winners spend more than they won. So obviously something has shifted either with ANets focus or Amazons. Either way someone figured the partnership was no longer viable.

Go to the GW site right now, whats the first thing you see? An Alienware laptop right? Go to the section about the przes for the survey and there you can take a link to the Alienware site. You think ANet sent some intern to the store to buy a lap top for them to give away and then had the Web team set up the site like that? Or do you think GW marketing dept called Alienwares dept and ANet gets a free lap top that Alienware writes off in exchange for the add space and link?

Quote:

If it's anything more than a basic unlock (prestige armor/skins/mini pets) then I really fail to see how it matters at all.

Who knows what it unlocks, but GWs is all about the title grind now because of this, and Most of the titles are in PvE as is the HoM.

Quote:

So Anet developing something for the PvE side automatically indicates a shift in focus...? Not really

3 campains with a couple of PvE only skills, then an expansion with dozens of them and no new PvP content, yeah I'd say that indicates a shift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk
4) I honestly doubt ANet Devs sat down at a meeting and said "let's make a title that sets up PvPers a way to sell stuff to PvEers" They may have figured on PvPers selling keys, but I doubt the design was intent for this.

It was.

So they thought not a single PvP would actully use the keys and get the title for themselves? The Chest itself when first released may have had this intention, but the New Title did not.

Quote:

This has come about due to the conflicts caused by skill balance, and allows Anet to balance the PvP side of the game more actively without disrupting PvE players too much. Again, I fail to see how this indicates a shift in focus

For THREE years PvEers have complained about PvP related nerfs, and now a change, for THREE years the skills sets have been identical for both. The introduction of the PvE skill was ment to curb this issue in some ways, but it's still not right. NOW a change indicates the shift to PvE, GW2 and the HoM and the title grinding in PvE. Why no change the very first time PvEers complained? Or the second, or the third? The change aids both sides yes, but the benift is for PvE land, though I don't see how nerfs effect PvE anymore since it's all Ursan and HB Monking.

Quote:

Look at the developments since release. Observer mode, purchasable UAS (and all its developments), purchasable item unlock packs, PvP character improvement and the introduction of the J menu, automated tournaments and their development... I could go on. Anet has consistantly put effort into both sides of this game, and PvP has definately had it's fair share of attention. If anything skill balance has suffered, but that should be less of a problem with the recent change in approach.

I agree completly with this, the "J" key menu is the best thing ever added imo. But none of the PvP additions you listed are new. More PvE has been added since what you listed.

And I'm not saying ANet is trying to neglect PvP, i'm just saying it's not their focus anymore. They are priming for GW2 and that road goes through PvE land.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talkin bad about ANet, they've made tons of great changes, I enjoy the game and will continue to do so.

Elee · May 12, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

In Anets shoes I would have done it entirely differently.

I would have raised the level cap in PvE to 30 with the release of EotN, working retroactively so most people would hit it straight away. In PvP zones your max level would still be 20, and attribute cap 12 (16 with runes), though in PvE zones you would be able to raise attributes beyond that to (for example) 20 (22 with runes).

If could then be balanced so that skills were in line with each other at 16, acceptable in balance terms for PvP, but could go nuts afterwards. Taking Splinter Weapon as an example - it could effect up to 3 adjacent foes at 16, but up to 5 at 22, whilst also increasing in damage.

More work, but it would have been infinately less confusing and a much more elegant solution. I hope they follow a simmilar model to this in GW2, rather than again splitting skills into two different pools.

I really like the concept and I also do hope that they'll implement something like this in GW2 instead of using two seperated skill-pools. As Divine already pointed out two different pools only hinder players who enjoy both PvE and PvP and in addition seperate the community to some degree.

I don't know how hard it would've been to implement this in GW1 since we have a linear skill progression. In order to allow skills to really go nuts above a certain skill rank GW would need either an exponential skill progression or another code that'd treat skills above a certain attribute rank in a different way. Although I'm not sure about this it seems logical to me. Maybe I'm mistaken...whatever: Good idea, hope they'll implement something along those lines in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

*grabs popcorn and waits for the epic ownage*

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
2) See Dutch Smurfs post,

See my response to his post.

Liked it.

Also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I honestly doubt ANet Devs sat down at a meeting and said "let's make a title that sets up PvPers a way to sell stuff to PvEers" They may have figured on PvPers selling keys, but I doubt the design was intent for this.

If they didn't intend that PvP'ers'd sell their stuff to PVE'ers then why did they raise PvP rewards? I mean, if they wouldn't want/didn't intend PvP'ers selling their keys to PvE'ers then they might have lowered rewards or is that just my weird way of thinking?

Shuuda · May 12, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

but GWs is all about the title grind now because of this

Only if you're stupid. (P.S: not say that you yourself are stupid.) Smart people realise that them titles mean nothing real, and don't waste their time on them.

Quote:

So they thought not a single PvP would actully use the keys and get the title for themselves? The Chest itself when first released may have had this intention, but the New Title did not.

PvPers can sell the keys, at a good 5K a pop now, there's a benefit.

racso · May 12, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I am willing to tryout this new system, skill balancing are mostly due because of PvP complain, so separating skills by making two version of same one seems to be a fair solution.

Also most PvP characters I play, I previously played them in PvE at a sort of training. Just read carefully the tag of the skill.

DreamWind · May 12, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Considering Guild Wars 2 is probably going to have much more success as a PvP title I don't see how that is valid.

Do you actually believe Guild Wars 2 is going to have more success as a PvP title? I don't...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

So Anet developing something for the PvE side automatically indicates a shift in focus...? Not really.

Do you actually believe that Anet hasn't indicated a shift in focus over the years? I don't...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

This has come about due to the conflicts caused by skill balance, and allows Anet to balance the PvP side of the game more actively without disrupting PvE players too much. Again, I fail to see how this indicates a shift in focus.

I think the problem people are having is that 99% of the changes over the years didn't disrupt PvE play in any way...so this recent change is technically not for balance at all (however well disguised). It is to shut up the PvE players. This main reason for this change is absolutely NOT so they can balance PvP more actively.

Anet stretches out their resources even farther, thus hindering PvP balance even more than it already was. Not to mention the fact that this makes the game even more complicated and is yet another PvP barrier for the average player. In essence, they have completely choked off PvP from the mainstream with all their changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Look at the developments since release. Observer mode, purchasable UAS (and all its developments), purchasable item unlock packs, PvP character improvement and the introduction of the J menu, automated tournaments and their development... I could go on. Anet has consistantly put effort into both sides of this game, and PvP has definately had it's fair share of attention.

Anet has definately put time into PvP...nobody can argue that. But look at the changes you mentioned...I could easily argue that 2 of those haven't gone far enough (unlocks should be free), one of them should have always existed (J menu), one of them is a flawed system for GW PvP (tournaments), and only one of them was an unexpected addition (observer).

Things like unlocks or the J menu or profession balance should have been there from the beginning. So when they are added to the game later I consider them "needed" changes. That is largely different from most PvE changes which I would consider "wanted" or even changes that largely have no effect on whether or not people leave Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

PvPers can sell the keys, at a good 5K a pop now, there's a benefit.

Since when should a real PvPer want/need gold? Gold is simply a PvE barrier in PvP that has yet to be removed.

Trub · May 12, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

We are missing the 'message' of the OP:
Div wants to leave PvE...and I don't want him too..

If he goes, alot of his gaming experiences, and advice will be lost...and I for one kinda liked it.
(If your yanking our chains, I'm going to kick your butt Div!)

DarkGanni · May 12, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I don't see why the big fuss about this update. PvE is already imba with the stupid ursan. The Skill Switch when you enter a PvP area is a good idea imo and players will get used to it just as they got used to all the updates over the past 3 years. The OP wants to quit PvE? go ahead.

my 2cents.

- Ganni

Yichi · May 12, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Do you actually believe Guild Wars 2 is going to have more success as a PvP title? I don't...

I actually do believe that this will help a lot of new players break into PvP or have players migrate over into GW2 due to it comming with full UAX from the start. Now players (like when GW was first released) will not have to spend any time in raising a character and gathering equipment or unlocks to be able to PvP on an equal character as someone who has played the game for a while.

That was one of the biggest drawbacks to GW1 NOT having the PvP audience it could have.

Shuuda · May 12, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Since when should a real PvPer want/need gold? Gold is simply a PvE barrier in PvP that has yet to be removed.

Because many PvPers have and like to use PvE characters, Z-keys means I'm making money while having fun, sure it's just 5K, but it's a sweet deal compared to wasting time by farming.