Curse

Ec]-[oMaN · May 10, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I could care less. Especially for what they have planned skill wise for GW2. As long as GW2 addresses;
-
PvP skills having absolutely no correlation or affect with PVE skills(I want my PvP skills to be balanced when needed with no draw backs)

-No grind what so ever to get into PvP(did they even fix the unlock packs, that still required you to unlock all the damn weapon mods?Three years hello!!!)

-Relatively easy access to nice skins, unlike the grind that is required now

-Decent PvP marketing/exposure

Let's face it, the only motivation true PvP players PVE'ed at release was because they HAD to, gold, equip skins were just a by product. If they could just jump into the game and pew pew some, like in FPS games they would.

shoogi · May 10, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

The point is that the main difference between pve players and pvp players is that PvP players look for a challenge, while PvE players don't.
Pve'rs don't enjoy having a hard time playing guildwars. They get the most fun when they pound through everything with their ursan. That's why pve suits them- it doens't OFFER any challenge.
Pvp'rs, on the other side, play for the challenge. We don't like gvging against some r5000 guild who play with koss and jora and flawlessing them after 3 minutes, even though we win. We like to play against good teams that really test our skill, even if we lose after a 20 min match.

Changing a skill is a challenge. It's basically saying: "ok, you used this build successfully for a while, now lets see how you manage with a different one". It forces players to think of new skillsets and playstyles. PvPers cry for skill changes, because they pump life into the game and cause meta shifts. PvEers don't want their skills to change, because that makes the game a bit harder for them. Hey, we don't enjoy activating our brain cells do we?????

Seperating skills to pvp and pve versions is meant to solve this- No skill changes for pve and pve'rs are happy, many skill changes for pvp and pvp'rs are happy. So theoretically this isn't a bad idea. Now the problem is that anet have many good ideas, but when it comes to implementing them they fail, most of the time (look at that new zaishen title for example).

Ensign · May 10, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

My feeling is that if this is something you're going to do, you need to do it all the way or not at all. There is very little worse in a game than skills that do not work predictably. If a skill says it does something, it needs to do that; if it's going to vary in effectiveness between areas, it needs to do so in ways that follow more global rules, such as, for instance, the diminishing returns in PvP in World of Warcraft.

Having 1000 skills that work the same between games, but 50 skills that morph into different skills when you step into a PvP zone, not according to some rule, but by a table that you need to memorize, is awful.

If you're going to separate the skill sets, it needs to be a hard split. Give the PvE and PvP versions of the skill different names, and split the world, ala Half Life vs Counterstrike. They are different games with different weapons and skills, that are the same game because they follow similar rules. This sort of distinction is clear and intuitive if you build it in; maybe that's something they want to do in GW2.

Consistency is huge. The 5% of us who post on forums and keep tabs on this sort of thing can deal with all the kludges and figure out how things work, but for everyone else this is just another hurdle in an already overly complicated game that is not going to help.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 10, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

since when is RA PvP

since when did anybody care about RA

You've missed the thesis of his post. Most casual players especially the ones that are new to the PvP scene obviously go to RA first, duh it's even required to get to TA, and then HA. Making the transition harder for the lamen does no good. Then again these same players don't really end up in GvG anyways so who cares

right.
. The end result being, any other form of PvP within the game becomes pure junk(Which has already happened) and leaves nothing else for the high-end to play casually or quick.

Ensign, yeah that's the way it would have to go.

No One Famous · May 10, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

[insert really tiny font here]and yes, I said rage. I yell. In PvE. And I've yelled at my monk for not preprotting me against a spike. I needs halp!?[/end of really tiny disclosure that no one will read because it's in really tiny letters]

Monsters know how to co-ordinate spikes?

Riotgear · May 10, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Having 1000 skills that work the same between games, but 50 skills that morph into different skills when you step into a PvP zone, not according to some rule, but by a table that you need to memorize, is awful.

Many of WoW's skill changes had pretty narrow aim, like the disabling of long-cooldown abilities, diminishing returns itself is a selectively-applied mechanic and several abilities (primarily melee snares) are exempt. There is, of course, no indication anywhere in-game of which skills are exempt.

The problem with applying global rules is that there isn't really a WAY to apply a global rule, Guild Wars' skills are extremely varied in function and the problematic ones are largely problems due to the interaction of that specific skill rather than widespread problems like "being mezzed is extremely unfun."

Widespread problems like that popped up from the game not being designed with PvP in mind and PvE-oriented mechanics like crowd control translating over very poorly. Guild Wars WAS designed with PvP in mind, so it has never had these sort of pervasive design issues that mandate something global in scope.

Things global in scope are not necessarily more intuitive either, do you really think the global armor stacking nerf was a more intuitive solution than just selectively hitting +armor skills, for example?

Shuuda · May 10, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

I take offense to that!

I still rage at my caster guildies for being in the line of pew pew, para present or not.

[insert really tiny font here]and yes, I said rage. I yell. In PvE. And I've yelled at my monk for not preprotting me against a spike. I needs halp!?[/end of really tiny disclosure that no one will read because it's in really tiny letters]

As hard as this may be for us all to take, you should know that: Your monk clearly sucks, and you clearly suck for having that much trouble in PvE.

DreamWind · May 10, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Except the playerbase NOW has dwindled. This isn't about the mistakes made in the past, this is about what they need to do to go forward.

True, but there is one problem. They have clearly shown that they haven't learned from all the mistakes that made the playerbase dwindle to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It'll remove one obstacle to getting proper balance changes done. It can't make them worse, right?

Sure it can. If they can't balance PvP, how do they think they are going to put time into "balancing" PvE and still manage to balance PvP (when they couldn't do PvP by itself).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Success is measured by profit; there really isn't any other objective measure. The 'race to the bottom' in terms of game quality is an unfortunate side effect of hardcore players not having a proportional economic impact. Everyone pays the same amount for the game, so in terms of playerbase, companies are looking for quantity over quality. They're happy to take your money even if you're a shit-munching moron. In short, we've devolved into a tyranny of the majority - it's an Idiocracy..

I really hate this line of thinking on so many levels. Sure success is measured by profit in the business, but failure is measured by profits that could have been gained but were not. Everybody I know realizes that Guild Wars could have been about 1000x better if not for Anet screwing up. Your "quantity over quality" comment really sums up how Anet managed this game in my eyes.

Also, PvP is not only hardcore players. They were supposed to make PvP and PvE BLEND so that everybody could enjoy playing both. Instead they created a divide where the players hate each other, even though most PvP players play PvE as well! They could have made so much more money than they did if they properly managed their game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Consistency is huge. The 5% of us who post on forums and keep tabs on this sort of thing can deal with all the kludges and figure out how things work, but for everyone else this is just another hurdle in an already overly complicated game that is not going to help.

Thanks for summing up one of the major problems of Guild Wars that this update just adds to.

moriz · May 10, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by No One Famous

Monsters know how to co-ordinate spikes?

don't know about you, but the first time i got rangerspiked was by the avicara in lornar's pass. it was the cleanest spike i've ever seen.

Clarissa F · May 10, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

You raise a good point, and this was something I was just talking to Silmor about in guild chat. Before, you can literally use PvE as a training ground for PvP. I told a little story about how I first learned about projectile attacks from tundra giants in the droks run, and how I "cleverly" moved behind a rock to stop those attacks while blasting away with my ele's non-line-of-sight spells. Things like that don't happen anymore. Why would you need any sort of clever maneuver when you can c-space with SY or hit 1234 on recharge in ursan?

I guess what I'm getting at is that instead of using PvE to hone your skills (oh believe me, my monking actually improves by playing PvE), you have to avoid it to not lose your feel?

I would agree with this except for one problem. The only time PvE was a GOOD place to train for PvP was 2005. Factions brought big, dumb mobs. Nightfall brought big, overpowered mobs. You aren't about to encounter a lvl 28 mesmer with an infinite energy pool(I wish) in PvP. If they had just made the AI harder, it would still be good to learn the skillsets. As soon as they introduced the PvE skills, it was over. Sins could come close to a warrior in melee with CA. Paras became Imbagons with SY and TNtF. With Proph, you could level up, get the skills you needed for certain areas as you moved through the quests and storylines, and learned to move around an arena-like setting once you got to the desert. You get most of your good Proph elites in the Shiverpeaks/Ring of Fire, and you were ready to start PvP.

As far as someone saying everyone else, guess what? 99% of those playing ARE casual PvE types who like skills that make it easy for them to get together with their buddies and go through an elite area in the time between dinner, homework/QT with the kids/etc and bedtime/lovin' time. I've argued before about how it Elite areas aren't supposed to be that way, but since more people paid money for casual play and want access to these areas, I know I'm in the minority.

Face it. PvE is made into the land of the casual. If you want a challenge, you're going to be forced into PvP, of forced into another game.

Ensign · May 10, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The problem with applying global rules is that there isn't really a WAY to apply a global rule

It's more of a design concern for Guild Wars 2, if they want to have crazy PvE mes effects for instance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

do you really think the global armor stacking nerf was a more intuitive solution than just selectively hitting +armor skills, for example?

No, it isn't. In fact I can state with a lot of confidence that the driving force behind this split is A.Net's inability to form consensus on anything of importance. The armor stacking thing went in because someone was digging their heels in about some important nerfs for some reason; Soul Reaping ended up going through a lot of kludges because the greater PvE community only gets vocal when faced with change. This particular change mess is being driven, I suspect, by the mess they've made over the importance of AoE in PvP with the ever-frustrating importance of NPC balls, and trying to kludge around another problem with clear solutions because actually fixing something would take real work and people letting go of bad ideas that didn't work out as planned.

Div · May 10, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It'll remove one obstacle to getting proper balance changes done. It can't make them worse, right?

If you think making this separation will make PvP balances better, then you're mistaken

Riotgear · May 11, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you think making this separation will make PvP balances better, then you're mistaken

Considering the only thing that stopped Ancestor's Rage, Splinter Weapon, Death Pact Signet, and Harrier Toss from getting kicked in the teeth was PvE, I'm slightly optimistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This particular change mess is being driven, I suspect, by the mess they've made over the importance of AoE in PvP with the ever-frustrating importance of NPC balls, and trying to kludge around another problem with clear solutions because actually fixing something would take real work and people letting go of bad ideas that didn't work out as planned.

Yes, it is, but several other things like the Dervish fast attacks, the Harrier Toss hit, etc. seem to suggest that they WANT to fix some of the problems but somewhere along the chain of command, a "don't screw up PvE" order went through and now they have to deal with it.

I don't think they're heading in the right direction with solving NPC balls strictly through balance changes, but I do think that this is something that is necessary if placating PvE whiners is actually on the priority list.

Melody Cross · May 11, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Welcome to Guinea Pig Wars. The game where everything they do is geared toward tinkering to see if it will or won't be popular in GW2.

Seriously though. Anyone interested in the beta for GW2 need look no further than the current weirdness. Is it a good idea? Players who run in both gametypes will give a largely "Hell no" response. Players who just pvp or just pve? We’ll hear a reflexive “WOOT!” Sadly, that’s who Anet caters too now. Our time in the sun is fading, those people who enjoyed both. The WoW fanatics own GW PvE and they will have their “tank” one way or another (all my monk needs now is the ability to make bread… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvd5hpX2dy8 *sigh*)

The guys who bought skill packs own PvP.

And when GW2 comes out, the "feel" will be even that much different. Any argument that players who liked gw1 will still have it to play just went out the window.

I hate this idea. Which is why I—more and more until I completely—hate GW2. What’s next Anet? Do PvPers get a separate drinking fountain? Will there be a “PvE character’s must use the back door” sign when entering GvGs and HA? Here’s a great idea: PvE characters CAN’T enter PvP areas. PvP can’t enter PvE, right? LOCK EM OUT! And if they try to get in call the cops and turn the hose on em.

Segregation jokes aside, I do have a serious question to ask. Is there a game that is remotely like GWP used to be? Now or coming out soon? That game will get my money because GWP was a great game. Not too much grind, the company played it straight with their customers and didn’t lawyerball every word they posted on their FAQ, and the PvP was fun. That game catered to me. It catered to those millions of players who didn’t like what WoW and EQ represented. If I’ve gotta play those games if I want to play an online rpg…I may as well buy them instead of a cheap clone.

I only ask because…I don’t know what this is. I don’t know what it is now, I don’t know what it’ll be in the future. But it’s not Guild Wars. I bought something else. I bought something a helluva lot better than what they’re turning it into.

Greedy Gus · May 11, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Dude, you can jump in GW2.

Melody Cross · May 11, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Dude, you can jump in GW2.

Ask me if I give a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about z-axis if they're going to totally screw skill base gameplay.

C2K · May 11, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Dude, you can jump in GW2.

I wonder if you can build up Safe Fall in GW2 by jumping off Guild Hall Walls.

Ensign · May 11, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Considering the only thing that stopped Ancestor's Rage, Splinter Weapon, Death Pact Signet, and Harrier Toss from getting kicked in the teeth was PvE, I'm slightly optimistic.

I agree with you on Splinter Weapon, not on the others.

Also, kicking the first 3 in the teeth is going to prove to be bad for the game after the dust settles.

Zabe · May 11, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Ask me if I give a flying RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about z-axis if they're going to totally screw skill base gameplay.

If I remember right what I did read from GW2, some of skills will function differently when you are jumping etc. AND YOU CAN CLIMB IN TREES! Think bout it, tree falling from tree and swinging 150+ criticals with deepwound, must be good, rite? Or really jumping bunny thumpars.

And for the topic:

If this update lets Izzy make good PvP updates, it will be fine. But only in the case that PvE was the restrict for Izzy to make proper balance updates in past. Otherwise, the situation won't change, skills will still get ether renewaled etc.

Morgan Crowe · May 11, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

If I remember right what I did read from GW2, some of skills will function differently when you are jumping etc. AND YOU CAN CLIMB IN TREES! Think bout it, tree falling from tree and swinging 150+ criticals with deepwound, must be good, rite? Or really jumping bunny thumpars.

Wow, GW2 has to suck.