Curse

C2K · Apr 13, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I don't think it has to do with elites leaving, its because its an 8v8 game. Considering most PuGs fall apart after the first fail, it takes alot of time and frustration to get a group together. The leader needs to make sure everyone knows the builds(hence why gimmicks are very popular, its the build you should know how to play), vent info for coordination must be given to each member, callers need to be designated, etc. In short, your spending alot of time trying to create something that could fall apart in the first match up against a decent guild or an old school PuG thats been HAing together since HA was altar cap in under a minute. Maybe even Heroway or the zaishen fight.

HA may be a better game at 8v8 as far as strategy and synergy go according to some people, but 8 man teams are hell on PuGs. Guild Wars has evolved from "learning thru trial and failure" from 3 yrs ago into "I don't have time for failure kthnxbai" today. And this is not "elitism" thats doing this, its the entire Guild Wars playerbase.

Kyp Jade · Apr 13, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

N/Rts are still good holding backline in this spike meta. SO few teams are pressure that they can luck out and face two spike teams. Dont need to channel against spikes.

Grugio · Apr 13, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

6v6 sucked.

This crap about elitism is starting to become incredibly annoying. If you're unranked, man up and make some friends or join a guild.

Splitting it up into ranked Arenas is a horrible idea, too. New players need to play against experienced players to get a feel for it. Yeah it's discouraging to get blown away, but everyone gets blown away. Playing against someone that is better than you is supposed to make you want to become a better player so you can come back and beat them one day.

I <3 the glass mountain thing.

supa tim · Apr 13, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grugio

This crap about elitism is starting to become incredibly annoying. If you're unranked, man up and make some friends or join a guild.

agree but not the way you put it.
Ur probably like me highranked person who always gets into groups that get 5+ consects... but can u imagine how hard it is for unranked people to even get a guild that actually sets up HA and actually has the peolpe who know what to do and how to get thru all the losses etc.?

I suggest unranked people to read the sticky about the HA guide to get started so u know what to do. Its not just playing, its also making friends and a community u can play with.

Grz, Timmeh

.defekt · Apr 14, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

I went to GvG for some time as well during the 6VS6 HA period which had absolutely no room for any cool skills besides what was needed.

So in other words, you couldn't run rspike? Oh ok.

newbie_of_doom · Apr 14, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

guild wars has great pvp, but a crappy fan base in it

there is a difference!

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfs Shadow

A. Bring back 6 vs 6 HA

Go for it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfs Shadow

B. Actually do it like they do with Arena's in PvE. MAKE LIMITS!

What do you mean by that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfs Shadow

Although not encouraged. Maybe, low levels should get a random arena and win fame? (Yeah I know I suggested it.) It would help them learn the concept and actually get interested in it. (However the "team" concept in this suggestion is thrown out the window.)

I really dont get that sentence? Are you trying to say that people with charactars under level 20 should go into RA, which, by the way is impossible now and get fame? That makes no sense, but I'm so making a lvl 19 monk.

I agree the PvP acces to newbies should be lowered though, I've tried helping some people sometimes. Usually you're just wasting time.

Sol Deathgard · Apr 14, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

So your R9's and such are getting bored of the same stupid SWay, IWAY, or related thing, and they leave.

considering that I see alot more R9 SWAYS, IWAYS, or related thing then anything else, I wouldn't be one talking. Seems to be the ones that complain about builds like that are the ones that won't adapt to counter them & just cry for nerfs. Think about it, even balanced is cookie cutter, I watched one HoH fight, all 3 teams have the exact same build,

Shock Axe war
PD mes
RC monk
HB monk
Defence Anthem Para
SH Ele
Water snare ele
& Anti Melee necro

If everyone ran that like people seem to want, you'd start seeing people cry for Balanced to be nerfed.

Grow up, learn to play better.

Ego · Apr 14, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

I do not really understand all the whining.

HA have always been full of stupid builds, to a certain degree.

You people all say "it was better 2 years ago".

Well was it? Was 500 Ranger spirits combined with stupid imba spikes in Prophecies so much better?

I can agree that Sway is boring to face, but considering the few times I HA and meet SWAY, I might lose one out of ten games against them which I do not really mind.

Maybe you should start to improve at the game instead of whining on forums all day, cause really, it doesn't help ANYONE.

kranius · Apr 14, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

brain > sway : wanding traps isn't that hard, kill spirits isn't that hard, shutdown warmonger/splinter ain't too.

sway deals insane pressure,

classic antimelee > R/X, W/X, D/X, A/X, P/X
blindbot / blurred > all above
snare > all above

not too hard to pack one of those in a line-up...

anyway, yeah, instead of QQing here, play and get better...

L I Q U I D · Apr 14, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Ц_Ц(12 charrZ)

Ate of DK · Apr 14, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

So in other words, you couldn't run rspike? Oh ok.

Sad that you don't know me. Hence your flamebait fails. Before they changed HA into 6VS6 I used to play prot-monk. I've always liked a backline position more than frontline.

Edit:
The reason why 6VS6 failed was because of the extreme overpowered paragons those days.
I remember the build my own guild ran those days, and I can tell you that i't was an incredibly overpowered lame build! Shortly after this I quit HA and started playing GvG.

Kyp Jade · Apr 14, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I played 6v6 for all of a few weeks.

6v6 was not fun
capture points is not fun
fetid ground is not fun, hey lets make a new map, but make it tiny, completly open, and to dark to see anything

hurric · Apr 14, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

HA may be a better game at 8v8 as far as strategy and synergy go according to some people, but 8 man teams are hell on PuGs. Guild Wars has evolved from "learning thru trial and failure" from 3 yrs ago into "I don't have time for failure kthnxbai" today. And this is not "elitism" thats doing this, its the entire Guild Wars playerbase.

this is so true. I made my own r6+ team on saturday on 2 occasions and people rage quitted after we lost in UW. This was partly because someone suggested we rush the other team and we lost to sway and on another occasion we had a crap RC monk who died in zaishen. I ran same build with friends and we did fine before.
I really tried hard to stay away from Sway but seems like for pugs that's the only thing that works.

Killed u man · Apr 15, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurric

I really tried hard to stay away from Sway but seems like for pugs that's the only thing that works.

But it has been like this forever. In the beginning, you had Zaishenway, IWAY, Vimway and what-not-else-way...

The reason why HA is so dull, is lack of builds... (And I blame HoH-mechanics + maps for this one)

ALOT of people would agree with me, if I said that instead of this 1 gimmick (R/Dway-Thumperway) we had 5-6 Viable gimmicks...
I'dd rather face:

UW: R/D-way
Fetid: A/Mo-way
Burial: Heroway
Unholy: IWAY
Cap Points: Vimway (Mayby not, traps are a pain in the a$$ on cap points

)
...

than:

UW: R/D-way
Fetid: R/D-way
Burial: R/D-way
Unholy: R/D-way
Cap Poins: R/D-way
...

Anet should concider (Ohh nooes, GW2, no timezzZ) bringing up a few "ancient" builds, such as ViM, IWAY and mayby a new button-bash build. At the same time, buff more spike builds: Air-, Rit-, FoC-, Blood-spike.
This can all be done with changing no more than 30-40 skills.
Ok, we've brought back the lame builds, time to promote some ancient pressure builds (Can only be achieved if Cap Points and Relic Run* gets removed): NR/Tranq-Condi pressure, IWAY, ViM, Hexway (Jagged Bones anyone?), E-Denial-Way.
This once again can be done by touching no more than 20-30 skills...
Last but not least, let's bring back the "ancient" balanced (Watch out tough, within the larger meanign of the word) builds: Dual Smite, Triple Smite, Any-meta balanced build over the course of HA/tombs, Eurospike, legoway.
This would infact require touching a bit more skills, because U often deal with1 more than 6different profession within a balanced build, non-the-less: 60-100 skills oughta do it...

IF you buff enough random skills, there will be so many viable builds again, it's not just rock-paper-scissors as it is now (Legoway-Spike (R or A/D), hexway and sway). Build Wars will still be around, but in a lesser degree, because there is SO MANY viable builds, there simply will be lesser stress on your build. (Because you know you'll run into builds which have 100% advantage over you, and the other way around aswell) meaning it will come, once again, down to HOW well you play your build...

*Relic Run is "alright" in terms of: ANY build can atleast pack a few "balanced" snares, without having to pack a dedicated character for it (E.G. Water Snare, Splinter rit with Foes/trident and grasping) such as the Cripshot/Apply Poison...

Tamuril elansar · Apr 15, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

HA sucks compared to GvG
HA never took alot of skill, i recently won halls with sway.

Killed u man · Apr 15, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamuril elansar

HA sucks compared to GvG
HA never took alot of skill, i recently won halls with sway.

GvG requires more skill, thanks for stating that cptn. Obvious...

HA NEVER took alot of skill, even balanced is a joke compare to GvG. Look at (Original) playerbases, HA was/is more succesfull than GvG.
More skill doesn't always mean more fun, HA <-> GvG is the proof. Wether it was due to high-level of entrance in GvG, or the fact you need 8 guildies (If you want to be effective) to win, GvG has always had the smaller community. Yet, for some reason, Anet found it necessary to focus every skill balance around GvG (With the exception of a few).
When you balance a game, you must try and get a good focus on WHO you exactly want to satisfy.
E.G. look at ALL the R/D-ways. They ATLEAST represent 80% of HA. So if you would look from a "pure" customer satisfaction point of view, Anet would have to BUFF R/D-way (Seeing this will disgrundle 20%, whilst satisfying 80%)
This obv. isn't the way to go, because those 80% people are NOT playing for fun, but rather for their Title. (TIGER, OMG IM GUD AT THIS GAME)

Also, when they "nerf" the R/D-way, these people WON'T leave. Ironicly, these swayers are the more "loyal" community of HA, simply because they GOT TO HAVE their Tiger, and they WON'T leave untill they have it...
The other 20% get cornered in with those updates, meaning they will eventually leave (If Anet keeps buffing these gimmicks). (The exception here is large group of IWAY'ers who left, but they also often achieved their goals: wolf/tiger) This will end up in a loss of 20% community... (= Bad)

So the choice is rather obvious: Nerf sway, buff balance... The swayers will stay and find a new gimmick AND the 20% that plays other builds, will stay aswell (Seeing they got buffed). This will end up in a 100% preservation of the community.

By laying the focus on GvG in every skill update, HA limped behind, and eventually died out, because the "theoretical" 20% left. Gimmicks now represent 99% of HA, and there only is 1% left who actually plays for fun, instead of their tiger/pheonix.
In order to "fix" HA, revive it as you will, Anet SHOULDN'T balance it (Offc. there shouldn't be 1 Omg-I-pwn-all build) but rather revert back to the point where the larger part of the community played for fun...
No matter how U twist or turn it, 8v8-old school holding is concidered more fun (Look at poll), wether it is due to the excitement fact of "holding halls" or due to the fact that simply observing a KoTH match is more interesting than cap points/relic run (Yawn, remove observer for these), Old school holding HAD more succes.
Bringing this back, together with all the ancient builds (Look at prev post) WILL have a positive change on HA, and I'm pretty sure some old-timers will come back. Just for the sake of having 1 last HoH-holding run...

kranius · Apr 15, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

- There are two categories of players in HA : those who play for fun, and those willing to earn fame. The first one was the most important in the begining, but it slowly disapeared, as they didn't have fun facing over and over the same teams... The last one is still there because more and more gimmicks are playable, and can give a z0mg 1337 t1g3r ( which is worthless due to x2 fame week-ends ).

- HA failed because PuG are epic fail. People want everything quick, which can't just work in a competitive gamestyle. Guilds winning halls ( omg what did i say guilds ?! ) win because they act as one. r3+ guilds are more enclined to success than r10+ PuG... But this people don't get it... Guilds run "balanced" ( don't really like this word ), PuGs try to do the same, but fail after 2nd map, z0mg sux0rz im4 pl4y sw4y to get fames.

- Some say that there is no strategy in HA compared to GvG : this is damn true. But try to run without any srategy, you will fail badly, especially in AB's style maps and relics. Strategy in HA is communication and build design (yeah, Build Wars). You have to pack some anti-meta ( blindbots are really good... ) some snares, defense, whatever...

- About nerfs/balance, nerfing what is just really overpowered is usefull ( nerfing R/D is pointless as they suck hard ), such as cultist or old school ritspike. Otherwise it's useless and restricts amount of build playable, which will make more people whine about the lack of diversity in HA.

- If some people just can't stop QQ about HA, maybe they should stop playing it, or use their brains, and see why they failed (debriefings are good...), then try again with some slight changes to their build (or players, bad players are pains in the ass, even some r10 sucks (sway ftw ?) ). Because even some builds just lick ballz, some just need one or two skills change to work properly (i'm fed up with people blaming builds because it doesn't pull enough fame)

shoogi · Apr 15, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

a. HA is bad now because the lust for fame took over, not because groups don't accept low ranks. When I was unranked (=first 3-4 months of gw) ranked teams didn't accept unranked players. I know you can't compare that time to now (there were 8+ IDs daily, and unranked teams forming in eu/am districts constantly) but I don't recall myself complaining about 'discrimination'.
b. Stop crying about 'rank discrimination'. Let me tell you something- r3+ pugs aren't much more successful than r0 randomways. Find more people in your situation and make a guild. a r1-2+ organized guild will beat most r3+ pugs.
c. pugs fail, pugging isn't the way to success.

Ate of DK · Apr 15, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

And people should also keep in mind that those "succesfull PuGs" are players who know each other for a long time and are probably in the same alliance and share the same rankings.

Observermode can be misleading if people believe they are looking at real PuGs. Less experienced players can't seperate good players from bad players that easily.

Killed u man · Apr 15, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

And people should also keep in mind that those "succesfull PuGs" are players who know each other for a long time and are probably in the same alliance and share the same rankings.

Observermode can be misleading if people believe they are looking at real PuGs. Less experienced players can't seperate good players from bad players that easily.

Well, Ob'sing HoH, 99% of the time you will see bad players...
Seems just yesterday when I saw the W/E (Legoway lol) running up to a guy, shock him, run away to a monk who was standing still for a long time already (Fail) and bull's strike him for no apparent reason...

I know for a fact the warrior was r11... No need to say more...