Curse

axe · Apr 11, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I cant see anything good coming to HA in the future, I think the biggest problem was that Anet actually listened to all the crying on the forums and decided to do something about it.

They catered to the almighty Balanced benchmark as suggested by so many people, they nerfed countless FotM by skill nerfs and game changes to make the playing field as level as possible. And have done an excellent job in that regard of trying to reward skill.

Honestly think about this for just a minute, esp. all the good players that post in here daily, you know who you are, you come in here with your balance ideas, do you have problems winning? NO you are the most successful players in the game you are the ones holding and winning every map. Yet you still ask for nerfs here or there. But honestly you KNOW you are on top of the game, you consistently bring in fame and your only complaint now is that there is lack of variety.

That is a direct side effect about rewarding skill, they put in a maze of game mechanics in HA to try to reward skill, and it has in a way done that, but in a negative way, instead of rewarding skill it PUNISHES lack of skill.

While this may be fine for the game, its terrible for the player base. If everything was right and balanced in the world we would have ONE build, just one, dont kid yourselves, if the game was balanced there would be exactly one build that would be the best option for HA. This build would obviously reward the better team, but it would be so devastating for the player base. As we limit builds further more and more people will get bored with the lack of variety and fewer and fewer new players will come into the arena that rewards skill by punishing lack of skill.

People say there is a lack of creativity in build design, and yet everyone is discussing limiting builds even further. The sad truth is that before all the new mechanics and skill nerfs there was a greater variety of builds, some may have been IMBA but they should have been toned down and not eliminated.

I am not saying that its impossible to play HA, or to gain exp. and become better, but the reward is so small for the time and frustration investment.

The best part about HA back in the day was the activity in there, you could be totally terrible at the arena and you could at least find a team and suffer loss after loss, but its far better than, join 1 team in 2 hours and suffer one loss and be done for the night. There was a build for everyones style of play, and the mechanics were setup so that ANY given build could get a lucky break and win. I know it sucks when luck plays a factor against you, the better team then loses. But that small luck factor kept MANY people playing whatever build they settled on, as beginning players they kept playing because there was always a CHANCE that they could get that lucky last second cap for the win. The variety of builds kept it interesting as well.

Beginners have no chance at this, they seriously dont R/D way is a terrible FotM that as mentioned before is one of the easiest FotM to beat, this is the build that many beginners are forced to play STILL people want this nerfed, that is laughable. Lack of build variety and bad mechanics that punish inexperienced players is choking out HA and has been ever since they started messing with the arena. The primary logic behind nerfing a build like this has always been "this build is overplayed, not that its tough to beat, its just boring to face, nerf it" why not buff other skills, create some synergy and reward people for trying something different. By continuously nerfing builds that can be run by inexperienced players you keep forcing more an more people out of the arena.

I pretty much dont want to post this because I cant even remember what I wrote by the time I got done, but this arena should not require the time commitment and exp. that it currently does. Teams should not be forced to use vent to run a successful build HA is supposed to be a casual arena IMO.

wuzzman · Apr 11, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Good lord. So their are still non-idiots in Gladitor Arena?!?!? I thought they were all banned. Nice post Axe(and I say that seriously), your probably be flamed followed by banned, but the game is dead already( I do it for the lol's).

Mr Fizzle · Apr 11, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Tombs(ha)became screwed as soon as the first FOTM that required little to no skill came out.

Kaelyn the Dove · Apr 11, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

So, op gimmicks are good and balanced is bad?

Here's a test to determine whether you're right or wrong:

Does Wuzzman agree with you? If he does, then you're wrong.

DreamWind · Apr 11, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

This is social networking. You know those real life skills you develop to help you land jobs, internships, summer research, that kinda stuff. That ALL applies to a social game like GW. It sucks at first, but as soon as you get the snowball rolling down the hill it grows bigger, and faster.

Well the sucking at first is the problem for most of the population. There is still problems even after your network has grown. You still can't pick up and play the good PvP modes whenever you want for however long you want, while you can with most other competitive games out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

Beginners have no chance at this, they seriously dont R/D way is a terrible FotM that as mentioned before is one of the easiest FotM to beat, this is the build that many beginners are forced to play STILL people want this nerfed, that is laughable. Lack of build variety and bad mechanics that punish inexperienced players is choking out HA and has been ever since they started messing with the arena. The primary logic behind nerfing a build like this has always been "this build is overplayed, not that its tough to beat, its just boring to face, nerf it" why not buff other skills, create some synergy and reward people for trying something different. By continuously nerfing builds that can be run by inexperienced players you keep forcing more an more people out of the arena.

This arena should not require the time commitment and exp. that it currently does.

Good post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaelyn the Dove

So, op gimmicks are good and balanced is bad?

Op gimmicks are bad. Balance is good. I'm just not convinced Sway is Op.

wuzzman · Apr 11, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaelyn the Dove

So, op gimmicks are good and balanced is bad?

Here's a test to determine whether you're right or wrong:

Does Wuzzman agree with you? If he does, then you're wrong.

if you can't wand trappers you deserve to lose. Let me guess? leet r9 player can't wand trappers(actually that is true)? how many r0 r/dways got their first fame off of you?

oh yeah eurospike != balanced; sorry to inform you

but in the mean time

EUROSPIKE FLAWLESS VICTORY

llsektorll · Apr 11, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

QQ more... Ha isn't what it use to be.... the players are just not there anymore.... there has been 5million units sold that does not add up to 5million players online.

Sure there are more r9+ than r1s.... the reason r9+ win and r1+ don't is two simple reasons

1.... r9+ has more experienced monks
2.... r9+ rarely PUG unless absolutely necessary... playing with familiar people reduces risk of running with players unfamiliar to the build or picking up the random noob r9+

getting high rank is not easy.... being a good player is not easy.... with all the content in GW at the moment PvE players have their handful.... HA is probably the last thing on their mind as hero battles gives reward points but winning HA does not?

ANET is really kicking HA in the groin with the following decisions...
1. Adding the map Forgotten Temples
2. Removing getting regional Favor of the Gods
3. Not adding incentives like reward points

People have moved on to GvG or worst form pvp known as Hero Battles...

tortugan · Apr 11, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I have to agree with most of the people here in saying that the skill of the players has declined in the last 2 years. I just want to say that I know I'm not a well known person nor a really high rank PvPer, I still feel that I have a valid opinion on it.

The main reason I personally don't really enjoy doing HA is the map Forgotten Temples, the one with 5 shrines, but that's mostly because I haven't figured out how to do it yet. It goes against basic instincts of sticking together as a team and doesn't really fit in with the rest of HA.

Another issue is the diversity of builds, which has been mentioned a lot here before. Back in the old days, people would run a big diversity of builds and actually win stuff(Mo/W KD spammer anyone?). Furthermore, people would also actively try out new builds and stuff like that.
Nowadays people are more focused on fame farming and have the mentalities: 'if it works, why tweak it/run something else?' and 'We just want R3, R6, R9, R12, who cares about actually playing HA for HA and not the fame.'
I'll explain that a bit: in my opinion people in the older days of HA cared less about fame and more about enjoying the testing out builds and such. It kinda turned around now, people are more interested in fame farming than figuring out new builds. Going to a district and seeing 30 out of 40 people set up to run a role from Sway pretty much says all it has to say.

I also agree with sektor, there isn't a real incentive for lower ranked HA players to play HA, because the only 'real' reward HA has itemwise is the HoH chest, which not a lot of low ranked players reach. But even the higher ranked/better teams who win HoH don't get good drops out of it, since just about all the 'exclusive' stuff that the HoH chest had is now somewhere else to be found in the game, except ofcourse the Mini Ghostly Hero.
But as I said, the chance of a lower ranked person ever winning HoH is pretty slim, looking at the experience the person will likely have. The only reason they'll be playing is for fame then, which doesn't really offer any 'good' rewards anymore, except a special emote at R3, R6, R9 and R12. And to be honest, who is impressed by a R6-R9 anymore?

I think HA could use some sort of makeover, starting by removing the shrine capping maps and keeping Sway just the way it is. As it already has been said, just wand their trappers and you should be fine

. What Arenanet should try to do is give people an incentive to actually try other builds instead of just finding that one special build and sticking to it. How they have to do that? Well, they could try to lower the amount of spike builds a bit and make it more fun to run pressure builds. I don't want to say they should inmediatly nerf a few spike builds, but they should try change the spike build meta a bit.

llsektorll · Apr 11, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

instead of recognizing guild of the week... why not recognize build of the month.... and give a history of the person who made it up to reach success with it... and that person gets 100 bonus fame or something...

very easy to implement but would really get people back into thinking and not just grinding.... last i remember that is what this game is really about

zling · Apr 12, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

as a new HA player I just don't have a choice. either run SWay and hopefuly win the first 2-3 maps or sit there forever and pray that a group will accept me. most just say rank 3/6/9 or more.
so I did run SWay a bit during the double fame weekend and managed to get to rank 1, yeah just 1

I really hate SWay, it's a very boring and easy to beat build but for some unknown reason it's very very popular and people pretty much force you to run it unless you're in a high enough rank to find a decent balanced group.

as for not PuGing, my guild and alliance is focused on faction farming, FFF and ABung. so I cant really count on them for HA or any other PvP form for that matter. and I dont really have friends who play guildwars that we can play together and improve.
so what do I do? play the occasional SWay and hope for the best

it's so sad but it's true

.defekt · Apr 12, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

I'm REALLY sick of PvErs complaining about not getting to play in HA. We've all heard it many times before; "I can't get in a group because I don't have any fame, and I can't get any fame because I can't get in a group."

The thing is, if you look at the flipside, if I were to go to DoA with say, rank 3 lightbringer and rank 4 norn, do you think I will get a group? No, I won't. I'll be called a noob if I try to join a group and I'll wait hours finding a group only to wipe against the first mob we agro.

You can't expect a good team that plays for fame to bring someone with no HA exp, and you can't expect a good team that plays for DoA drops and gems to bring someone that has no idea how to do DoA.

Think about what you are complaining about before you actually complain about it.

DreamWind · Apr 12, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

The thing is, if you look at the flipside, if I were to go to DoA with say, rank 3lightbringer and rank 4 norn, do you think I will get a group? No, I won't. I'll be called a noob if I try to join a group and I'll wait hours finding a group only to wipe against the first mob we agro.

Of course. This exists in both PvE and PvP, and it pisses me off when PvErs say its not. But we are talking about HA, why its playerbase is dwindling, and how to fix it.

Speaking of all the changes over the years and the maps, I have to say I hate any maps with cap points in them (antechamber and forgotten shrines). Reminds me too much of hero battles and alliance battles. Remove that shit from HA pronto if you ask me.

I do like fetid river and golden gates though. If it were up to me I would take out antechamber and forgotten shrines and put back broken tower and maybe sacred temple or scarred earth (not sure about that yet). Change courtyard back to old style holding. Halls could be left multiple objectives just to make sure holding builds don't dominate. Those would be my changes.

Horace The Great · Apr 12, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Guild Wars had great PvP yes, for me it is the best game ever. But since the new skills, PvP and especially HA changed allot. And I don’t mean changed like: more variation. Builds these days have more offence and defence at the same time.

6v6 was not bad I must say, I didn’t like it at the start, but that was because I was used to 8v8. Though I think HA can still be better at 8v8. It just needs some changes in skills and maps. To start with 3 maps with 1v1 killing promotes to much fame farming. Also HoH, the thing now with the 3 objectives is not that good. People get ganked allot because some people just doesn’t like there team/build.

I would like KotH only, but if one of the teams cannot win anymore they should leave automatically. Now, when a team cannot win they sometimes just gank a team they don’t like. Ofcourse people can still gank you even if they changed it. But not that much any more.

I believe HA can stay 8v8 with skill changed and map changes.

zling · Apr 12, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

I'm REALLY sick of PvErs complaining about not getting to play in HA. We've all heard it many times before; "I can't get in a group because I don't have any fame, and I can't get any fame because I can't get in a group."

The thing is, if you look at the flipside, if I were to go to DoA with say, rank 3 lightbringer and rank 4 norn, do you think I will get a group? No, I won't. I'll be called a noob if I try to join a group and I'll wait hours finding a group only to wipe against the first mob we agro.

You can't expect a good team that plays for fame to bring someone with no HA exp, and you can't expect a good team that plays for DoA drops and gems to bring someone that has no idea how to do DoA.

Think about what you are complaining about before you actually complain about it.

there is 1 major difference:
PvE=4 continents with tons of missions, quests, challange missions and elite missions.
PvP=RA(?), AB(?), TA, HA and GvG
out of these 5 only 2 are serious PvPs.

my point is that PvE has so much more variation to offer than PvP so you cant really compare HA to DoA as HA is a major part of PvP while DoA is a minor part of PvE...
also, I dont expect to get into "good" groups I just want a decent non SWay PuG... same as you'd expect in DoA or other elite missions for that matter...

Hugh Manatee · Apr 12, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

I'm REALLY sick of PvErs complaining about not getting to play in HA. We've all heard it many times before; "I can't get in a group because I don't have any fame, and I can't get any fame because I can't get in a group."

The thing is, if you look at the flipside, if I were to go to DoA with say, rank 3 lightbringer and rank 4 norn, do you think I will get a group? No, I won't. I'll be called a noob if I try to join a group and I'll wait hours finding a group only to wipe against the first mob we agro.

You can't expect a good team that plays for fame to bring someone with no HA exp, and you can't expect a good team that plays for DoA drops and gems to bring someone that has no idea how to do DoA.

Think about what you are complaining about before you actually complain about it.

Except... that... IT'S MIND NUMBINGLY EASY TO GET LB AND NORN RANKS..... You don't HAVE to get Norn and LB ranks in the DoA itself.

Seriously, in the time it could take me to get a ha group going and get 1 or 2 fame I can get like 10-20k norn points, pockets full of gold, an inventory full of merchable junk, and just maybe something sweet to sell on the open market. same deal with the LB title. And in the DoA you're not fighting random cheese crap, or human intelligence, it's the same AIs running the same thing thing over and over, if you wipe you go back where you were instantly and don't do what got you killed. There are maps of the place on both wiki's, the enemies exact stats and builds, where and when to expect popups ect. All you got to do to 'learn' DoA is read. And even at R3 LB and R4 Norn, ursan should still be enough to overwhelm the area if you have enough of them.

And lastly it's not just pve players who have these problems, it's players in general. Like myself, I mainly GvG, AB or TA when there's enough on for it. If there isn't I H&H vanq, work a title or farm something. What I don't do is go to HA alone because, as said, the play/prep ratio is way off, it's a waste of time.

DreamWind · Apr 12, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Another problem is that HA competes with GvG for people's time. If I have 8 players on, I'd much rather GvG than HA.

And stop bringing PvE into this thread. The entire game can be Ursan farmed. Nobody cares anymore.

Horace The Great · Apr 13, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by It's A Me

Sway is not imbalanced or op, any ranked group that knows what theyre doing can easily roll them, and even unranked ones.

Yes, it can be easy 1v1. But on HoH if you have one sway vs you and an other team that is good, then sway is overpowered I think.

Chaos Rofl Copter · Apr 13, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace The Great

Yes, it can be easy 1v1. But on HoH if you have one sway vs you and an other team that is good, then sway is overpowered I think.

sway isnt overpowered in halls. for one thing.. on altar cap the n/rts cant channel tank, so their bound to run out of energy from all the aoe, splinter etc on altar. even with deaths and energy from soul reaping. its just not enough compared to monks channel tanking and spamming heal party. with monks that never run out of energy this = no deaths, which = no energy. which = sway team wipe. and on relic runs, sway is totally dead. why? any team that is balanced and knows what their doing is going to have a snare. and a person able to interupt shit. the snare snare's sway's runner, and the pd or w/e disables the expel hexes. quite simple.

Ate of DK · Apr 13, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Another problem is that HA competes with GvG for people's time. If I have 8 players on, I'd much rather GvG than HA.

Good comment, a lot of high ranked friends went to GvG because there we're less spikes and more "skill > time" in general.
I went to GvG for some time as well during the 6VS6 HA period which had absolutely no room for any cool skills besides what was needed.

llsektorll · Apr 13, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

i must be backwards then.... i went from top 50 GvG to HA.... it's not about gvg or ha .... its basically what everyone failed to mention....after 3 yrs the elites started losing their interest in a ever diminishing community