Curse

Asyntyche · May 04, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Having only really played this game seriously for ~6 months (i still haven't got into PvP, i fail enough at PvE

), i was wondering what the state of PvP play was like before the release of Factions and Nightfall compared to now.

Did adding the extra classes (with skill types that have no counter) make the job of skill balancing too difficult? Or is the main problem the sheer number of skills introduced?

Watching some of the top GvG battles recently, it seems the added classes are used, but in niche roles. This could be due to people being more familiar with the core classes, but is it just the limited uses of the new classes?

I guess at this point in time the main reasons to ask this would be to see if skill balance could be better implemented in GW2 over time using Expansion packs (just new skills) rather than new Campaigns (new skills and classes), assuming a similar skill setup.

FlamingMetroid · May 05, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

The six core classes were created to fill all of the MMO roles, so when new professions were introduced, they broke the game because there wasn't any room for them. Hopefully GW2 will equally distribute role positions for each class, or leave room open for new classes to enter.

la_cabra_de_vida · May 05, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

The added classes are for the most part, one trick ponies. There is either one build to rule them all, or a small set of skills the are only viable in pvp.

FoxBat · May 05, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

The six core classes were created to fill all of the MMO roles.

The "striker" role as the define it in D&D 4.0, fragile martial characters with precise high-damage, didn't exist. This has been in umpteen number of RPG games since as rogues, thieves, assassins, sniping archers, and what not. The assassin basically failed though and only became useful in PvE through Death Blossom buffs turning them into another tank. I don't know whether they could've done it better in GW's existing system, or whether it could ever make PvP any good, but this style of character is a staple of most RPGs. The rigid combo orders sure didn't help anything though.

The Rit and Paragon similarly plugged a hole in terms of "offensive party buffs" which is another staple of the genre. (Clerics, Paladins, Warlords, etc.) Relatively mindless "passive offense" a skill-testing thing, probably not, but these staples were designed for strategic dice-rolling games with minatures, not real-time esports.

The expansion classes were made narrow specialists by choice, so that there would be design room for more and more classes like it. Which again, is already shooting yourself in the foot from an "elite" PvP perspective.

diff · May 06, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

From a PvP Point of view, GW is not about classes, but about build templates.
The class is just a game mechanic that puts up restrictions on how you can set up a build of the skills you have. The most obvious is that you cannot take skills from 3 different professions in one skillbar.

In pure theory, having more classes could help with the the skill balance: If one could balance skills by moving them around between the classes, broken templates could be made impossible by sharing the skills of those templates between 3 or more different classes.

However, this will never happen in GW, since we also got PvE, where the classes have to be balanced in such a way that every class could find a group for a mission.

MasterSasori · May 06, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asyntyche

Did adding the extra classes (with skill types that have no counter) make the job of skill balancing too difficult? Or is the main problem the sheer number of skills introduced?

Watching some of the top GvG battles recently, it seems the added classes are used, but in niche roles. This could be due to people being more familiar with the core classes, but is it just the limited uses of the new classes?

I guess at this point in time the main reasons to ask this would be to see if skill balance could be better implemented in GW2 over time using Expansion packs (just new skills) rather than new Campaigns (new skills and classes), assuming a similar skill setup.

Skill balances can never make everything perfect whether 6 classes or 10.

Niche roles are going to happen sooner or later the more classes you add. Though this is a big generalization, certain classes just specialize at roles better than others.

The new campaigns Anet keeps making is how they gain $$$ and the new skills are an incentive to entice players to keep buying.

RiKio · May 06, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Stopped reading after this sentence, it's obvious you're a moron.

Er...his post was sensible. VERY sensible.

IMO, Assasins are the only class that deserved to be implemented....the other ones were mere hybrids of the others.

Riotgear · May 06, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

The Assassin class did have a niche to fill, unfortunately they filled it with a bad class design that didn't go well with how the game already worked. In particular, a class based on ignoring positioning and killing before protection can be delivered in a game that developed most of its strategic gameplay from the exact opposite, and forced skill chaining on narrow 8-skill bars.

Ritualists are conceptually monks with a few unstrippable buffs and spirits. Spirits are bad for the game.

Dervishes are conceptually warrior rehashes with enchantment cycling. The enchantment cycling stuff hasn't exactly added anything to the game because it sucks.

Paragons are conceptually an uncounterable support juggernaut. There never was a niche for them to fill, because the entire concept of them is broken.

shoogi · May 14, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Game was way more balanced then. 12xx skills now, 6xx skills then. New classes were meant to satisfy pve audience (PLZ ANET PLZ WE MUST HAVE A BARD!!!!).
As some people said, only assassins were a bit more unique theoretically, but in reality that profession was a catastrophe (shadowstepping = BAD mechanic).

toastgodsupreme · May 14, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

PvP was also much more fun prior to Factions and NF.

I used to run a wammo (i know, lol, but this was to be an ass) and I'd use healing breeze + bonnetti's for energy and be invincible in the yak's arena, lol.

This was before timers on pvp matches and tomes. I once outwaited someone for just over two hours. I was stubborn. But that's what made it fun.

I do miss the old days. Before necros were nerfed in minions and soul reaping, before pvp timers, before tomes (when you actually had to work to get skills).

Yichi · May 14, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

Er...his post was sensible. VERY sensible.

IMO, Assasins are the only class that deserved to be implemented....the other ones were mere hybrids of the others.

See this post from another thread on why assassins are a hugely bad idea...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=13

Arkantos · May 14, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

IMO, Assasins are the only class that deserved to be implemented

I think your opinion sucks. Assassin has been a flawed class from the beginning, should have never been implemented.

The Meth · May 14, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Right now I would say the only non-core class that isn't completely lame is the ritualist.

Assassin's are inherently Lame and are against everything PvP should be in GW.

Dervishes are warriors with enchants. Then everyone who had an IQ of over 50 realized enchants suck so Dervishes are used for their God Mode ability that they have active half the time.

Paragons are warriors with a ranged attack an unstripable party wide buffs. Great Idea.

Ritualists started out as spirit spammers, then Anet decided spirits suck so Rit's are now channeling and restoration. Unfortunately their skills in each attribute are horribly skewed to a few skills (Splinter weapon and Ancestors rage are 100x better then any other channeling skill) which means they have basically 1 build they can ever use. But at least they fit in decently.

erk · May 15, 2008, 06:39 AM // 06:39

A couple of obvious things Izzy could do to improve Dervishes and Sins is to make several powerful scythe skills adrenaline based so they can't just charge in and get a kill with the first few hits.

Shadow stepping of all kinds should cause exhaustion, I'd include Ride The Lighting, Vipers defense, Aura of Displacement etc. in the list of shadow steps.

Mind you, some of the old core skills are still too overpowered eg. Bulls Strike which should not cause any additional damage, the autocrit and knockdown are more than enough. On the subject of knockdowns I would like to see the Stonefist insignia require 13+ strength like Sentinel's does, the reason is simple, knockdown is the most powerful shutdown mechanic in the game short of death, so the build should have something to balance against that extra second of knockdown.

So it's not just Nightfall/Factions/EoTN that have outstanding balance issues, it goes way back.

DreamWind · May 15, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Not this topic again. *smacks head* All the new classes were bad for the game. Period. I'm convinced only the clueless think otherwise.

Krill · May 15, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Not this topic again. *smacks head* All the new classes were bad for the game. Period. I'm convinced only the clueless think otherwise.

^^

Rits have been a failed jack-of-all trades with more gimmick combinations than probably all other classes combined.

Para defense and spear spam being used on all classes is stupid. Defensive Anthem > Shields Up! > Watch Yourself!...woo hoo.

Dervs have incredibly stupid wham factor and scythes have been abused to the max on other martial classes.

I don't even want to start with sins, everyone but the people that play them know their skill set and concept doesn't jive with the the game.

I find it interesting, thinking back to proph days when the martial classes were very rarely interchanged, i.e. R/W with warrior weaps or W/R with bows. Now you see sins with scythes, rangers with scythes, everyone trying to use various spear builds as a primary or just for extra spam damage and it's just simply retarded in the end. The sad part is that most of the expansion skills for the core classes have generally been good and without the expansion classes the game would be still be great. I think anet would have retained more players and expansion buyers without the expansion classes, but I understand their motive in trying to add new stuff to entice buyers.

RiKio · May 15, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

IMO, REAL and not mere wannabe-ninja, also balancedAssasins are the only class that deserved to be implemented.

Fixed, but it seems now an uthopy

Hyper Cutter · May 15, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

thinking back to proph days when the martial classes were very rarely interchanged, i.e. R/W with warrior weaps

That may just have been because it hadn't caught on yet, since iirc the original thumper build was made of Core and Prophecies skills...

erk · May 15, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

^^

Dervs have incredibly stupid wham factor and scythes have been abused to the max on other martial classes.

It's not scythes, it's the energy pwered scythe skills, be sure you understand that.

Paint_By_Numbers · May 15, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Yeah I was running r/w with various warrior weps (hammer favourite) for ages in prophecies, heck my first pve character was a r/w with warrior wep rofl, then I translate into pvp... but not warrior with bow lol..