Curse

zling · Apr 24, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I think that a Shock Axe with Distrupting Chop could do better than Magehunter's Linebacker with Distracting Strike.
you do more damage which means more pressure and your interrupt disables skills for 20 seconds, coupled with Magebane and Distracting Shot from the Ranger it's a very deadly combination. you lose a bit in the knockdown department but Balthazar's Pendulum and Shield Bash are usually there and Shock at least "counters" Shield Bash.

also, if I want to run Necro in such a balanced group but I dont have EotN which bar do you recommend?
Wail of Doom without Foul Feast or Corrupt Enchantment without Defile Defenses? or something else entirely?

Teh Jace · Apr 24, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

I think that a Shock Axe with Distrupting Chop could do better than Magehunter's Linebacker with Distracting Strike.
you do more damage which means more pressure and your interrupt disables skills for 20 seconds, coupled with Magebane and Distracting Shot from the Ranger it's a very deadly combination. you lose a bit in the knockdown department but Balthazar's Pendulum and Shield Bash are usually there and Shock at least "counters" Shield Bash.

Oldschool axe warrior is definitely a good choice. Both bars work but we stick with magehunter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

also, if I want to run Necro in such a balanced group but I dont have EotN which bar do you recommend?
Wail of Doom without Foul Feast or Corrupt Enchantment without Defile Defenses? or something else entirely?

[build prof=Necromancer/Elementalist][Wail of Doom][Faintheartedness][Insidious Parasite][Rend Enchantments][Parasitic Bond][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Grasping Earth][Resurrection Signet][/build]

CE or WoD its up to u.

Lorekeeper · Apr 25, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Ive got to say that I'm having a real blast with [shield bash] in TA at the moment. I need a bit more practice with it, need to get the timing right since its easy to use it on twitch before they actually use an attack skill... but its so funny when you hit stuff like [wounding strike] or [crushing blow] or [gash]. Some players out there queue up their attacks, so you can really annoy them, its only against the better players who might play the psychological game with you and wait to see if you panic and use it when theyre not using any attack skills... then wait 5seconds and unload on you. Ouch!

Anyway it wont be long till I finally get to grips with TA, right now just getting the hang of the various builds out there and what their strengths and weaknesses are. Still dont know many people... I hope that will change over time.

urania · Apr 25, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

I think that a Shock Axe with Distrupting Chop could do better than Magehunter's Linebacker with Distracting Strike.
you do more damage which means more pressure and your interrupt disables skills for 20 seconds, coupled with Magebane and Distracting Shot from the Ranger it's a very deadly combination. you lose a bit in the knockdown department but Balthazar's Pendulum and Shield Bash are usually there and Shock at least "counters" Shield Bash.

also, if I want to run Necro in such a balanced group but I dont have EotN which bar do you recommend?
Wail of Doom without Foul Feast or Corrupt Enchantment without Defile Defenses? or something else entirely?

u can kill with conjure warr.

u cant kill with shock axe warr, unless the 2 monks are completely incapable and the sins dont lineback when their monks are getting owned. or unless ur ranger gets a d shot on balth pendulum.

also, a dual monk build is never easy to roll if they know what they're doing.

I June I · Apr 25, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Nice guide but ofc i agree with squall

,, CE > dual monks, its alrite saying it takes a while to beat, but what respectable team runs it that u would have trouble rolling it :S

ceolstan · Apr 25, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

First, thanks for posting this guide. It's a great resource for TA, and it explains the build and bars quite well. I also appreciate that it gives insight in what to look for. The instruction that players need to look for X is the key to improvement--in fact more than simply playing balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

Apparently most teams didn't know what to do since he got to 50+ wins with lameway :P

This brings up a bit of a sore point that I have with my guild. We're largely PvX with people trying PvP as they exhaust the PvE game, and we do have a core of PvP players. As with any group of players, we have people who start to think that the fact that they like PvP means that they're actually good at it--or the fact that they create builds means they're good enough to play the builds they create.

The result is the division between people who will play the gimmick and people who see themselves as superior merely because they play balanced. I think that both the gimmick and the balanced build are important to player development.

For the new player, the gimmick's important because it restricts player options. Whether it's GvG, HA, or TA, the new player is faced with a lot of decisions to make and a lot of overwhelming information. There is no way that the beginner or even novice PvP player will be able to make an intelligent decision. By freeing the player from making some decisions, the player then has to concentrate on basics like positioning, kiting (when appropriate), target selection, whether to hang back or push forward initially, etc. In a gimmick like the dual monk, there are still decisions to make.

The other thing that being a newb gimmick team teaches is that any good balanced team can roll you. Why? Because they see that you're a gimmick and they know the weak spot in the gimmick.

At this point, your players are at the point where they can play balanced because they understand that gimmicks have inherent weaknesses that can be pressured effectively. The good balanced team looks at the opposing team, immediately thinks "dual monk" or "shoveway" etc. and then beats the living daylight out of it. The newb balanced team doesn't understand the gimmick, doesn't understand the situational use of one skill over another, etc.

I agree that it's frustrating to meet the different gimmicks and see some of the players who play a gimmick think they're hot stuff because they are rank whatever based on lameway. It's also frustrating because a lot of players never want to go beyond the easy gimmick to challenge themselves to improve their individual and team skills. However, I think it's important for especially new player development to study and play the gimmicks, understand their strengths and weaknesses.

And then move to the balanced--keeping in mind the excellent tips in the guide. What makes balanced powerful is its ability to counter a wide variety of offensive pressures. Good players and good teams have the battlefield awareness to make the right decisions at the right time and in a kind of groupthink that the neophytes just can't accomplish.

And for what it's worth, I'd want all of our players to learn to play balanced in TA and HA before they take balanced into GvG. I've seen us take new players in balanced GvG, lose miserably because people are confused about--well, everything--and then the so-called "experts" claim that it's okay that the team lost because, well, they played "balanced," and are thus superior to the gimmick. No. For new players coming to PvP, you have to give them a solid chance of winning and at least 1 or 2 wins per session. Otherwise they think they suck (and they do, but not for the reasons they think they do) and they won't come back.

/soapbox

The guide here is excellent for players who are past the point where they need the gimmick to ensure they win some games, and who want to develop their individual and team skills.

Thanks for taking the time to spell things out!

--ceolstan

No One Famous · Apr 25, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I disagree with the starting off with gimmicks to learn the game mentality you have. Sure you can run the build a few times and discover the weak points, but ultimately you'll only get better as a player by running balanced and failing, and looking at what is making you fail and improving on it.

Gimmicks promote bad player habits in the end and should be avoided.

FoxBat · Apr 26, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Isn't Sentinels a bad idea with all the weakness/WoD necros going around? Or does the armor bonus remain even when you drop to 12 strength in combat?

Teh Jace · Apr 26, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Isn't Sentinels a bad idea with all the weakness/WoD necros going around? Or does the armor bonus remain even when you drop to 12 strength in combat?

I know but it's still worth it assuming u won't be weakenned 24/7 and 2monk build is still quite popular atm as well as various E/A spikes

Nightsky · May 02, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Very good guide. Your build is very effective and it can work very well against most teams if things are going according to plan. It takes alot of skill to beat dual monk gimmicks but its alot more rewarding. I usually run a similar build in TA with a few skills variations. If everyone is playing at his top and knows what do to against each builds, balanced is the best. But it can also be the worst if people are not doing things right.

I find that its very hard to play balanced with players who are new to it because unlike gimmicks, role change depending on what your playing up against. Sometimes, your necro has to stop spike with WoD and Weakness and your ranger has focus on one specific character instead of another and this is where a pro team shine or where a noob team fail. Being on vent makes things alot more easier too.

-Rekiem

Molock · May 02, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The best way for a newbie to learn is to read forums like these and watch experienced players, not play gimmick builds. Gimmicks are one dimentional (usually) and leave no room for improvement at the game.. all they will improve at is the gimmick build in question. Now I am no pro myself but I have run gimmicks and when I was asked to play warrior for the first time I was clueless.. looking back it was quite funny

@OP: The guide is nice and explain a little about the build instead of simply stating the skills

Orange Milk · May 07, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I agree with both views on gimmicks, if thats possible.

You learn nothing from Gimmicks, except that gimmick. In TA the learning curve is slow and gimmicks won't get you far. In HA it's easy enough to r0-r3 on a Gimmick and then flash your deer and get in a better group doing some other gimmick and moving up the HA ranks that way. But ranks are harder to come by in TA so it won't work there. So gimmicks have there place but it all goes back to the "Skill > Time > Rank, Rank = Time not Skill, Rank = Nothing" whatever arguements.

I left TA about 2 months ago because I was burnt out of it, I still get plenty of PMs from old guildies and people I know asking what to run in TA. I'll direct them here. 1) so It's less work on my part explaining things, Wheres as I normally just say "Anything that has less than 2 monks is fine"2) So they can maybe avoid gimmicks.

I don't agree with no Plauge Sending though, even with the chances being very high of a Magebane/D Shot on it. Plus with enough Foul Feasting you won't need the Glyph. Though WoD is so strong I still prefer CE.

Kiluna · May 25, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Wouldn't mesmer with shame, guilt, diversion and power lock on their bar be able to do same and more what the ranger can? Ok a mesmer wont spread poison and can't interrupt non spells, expect with few signets and CoF. In "Mirror" (or should i say against your setup) mesmer could shutdown their necro so he can't spam WoD on your monk (diversion, guilt) or assist on opponent monk (diversion, shame).

There would also be 4 skill slots left on utility (hex removal, anti melee, enchant removal or what ever), one of them being the elite slot.

Something like:
[Diversion][Shame][Guilt][Power Lock][Drain Enchantment][Optional][Optional][Resurrection Signet]
For elite i would suggest something like [Expel Hexes] since you lose purge signet from ranger or [Mantra of Recovery]. Last optional could be another interrupt or e.managment. With expel the monk could change spotless to something else (RoF would be my choise).

I would see this setup to have more changes against all the gimmick/weird/your setup(s), than with ranger. But then again i'm not a pro TA player so i know nothing.

Barkeep · May 25, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

[psychic instability][blackout][diversion][shame][drain enchantment][inspired enchantment][distortion][resurrection signet]

There's quite a few skills on the bar I'm not sure of. Friend of mine took signet of humility, initially the bar had power drain instead of drain enchantment and you could also bring energy burn if you feel you are missing that little bit of extra dmg.

We've been testing with the bar in TA. Coward, Dev Hammer, this mesmer, and a WoH monk. Did ok with it, but I don't think we beat any teams we could not have beaten on regular balanced.

The mesmer is a great asset against gimmick teams like smiteway who rely on a healer's covenant monk to spam vigorous / patient. And psychic has the adventage that it can interrupt non-spell skills as well. So you can keep down a ranger's apply if ur monk is starting to feel the pressure.

But in general a proper ranger is simply more useful. It gives you more utility options, more pressure, signet control and it's not squishy!

From my experience, a good balanced with a mesmer may get the first kill, but after that the balanced with the ranger will outpressure them and make sure the res sigs dont go off.

Punky Bestie · May 26, 2008, 12:05 PM // 12:05

we played this a few times and it works well

[build prof=Me/N fas=8 dom=12 ins=9 cur=5][Resurrection Signet][Rigor Mortis][Rend Enchantments][Blackout][Psychic Distraction][Power Drain][Shame][Diversion][/build]

Absum · May 28, 2008, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Wouldn't mesmer with shame, guilt, diversion and power lock on their bar be able to do same and more what the ranger can? Ok a mesmer wont spread poison and can't interrupt non spells, expect with few signets and CoF. In "Mirror" (or should i say against your setup) mesmer could shutdown their necro so he can't spam WoD on your monk (diversion, guilt) or assist on opponent monk (diversion, shame).

Rangers aren't as soft as mesmers, they kite better and block attacks very effectively with nat stride, they have self condition removal in most cases, and poison spread is godly against any team that doesn't have foul feast..

Mesmers get trained hard until their monk gets a d shot on guardian.. then they die. Unless there are 2 of them and they both have sig of midnight!

cyathi · May 28, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Great guide Jace, keep it updated please

Burrah · Jun 06, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

We had rend in for drain Sal. And no-one likes to see an elite on 1, scruffy man...scruffy.

Pdrain's solid providing your hitrate on 3/4s is about 80%, with no flytime to worry about thas not really an issue.

The important thing to remember about that mesmer is facilitating damage ahead of actively preventing defense. With a ranger you get alot of passive damage from apply alone, once that kicks in you get your chance at a WoH dshot, you have purge so that you can *in moderation* ignore an opposition necro. Seeing as the mesmer doesn't have this luxury, you're looking at taking a strong utility role.

The culmination of this point being: Shame sucks, moar interrupts and diversion.