Curse

Free Sigils · May 21, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

I know what you’re thinking. You saw the title and you immediately thought “Oh Great, another QQ thread about how Ha fails and how sway is imba and a bunch of whining.”

Good News – You’re wrong.

This isn’t a QQ Thread. What you will find in this post is a hopefully well thought out and reasonable set of suggestions to fix the degrading nature of Heroes Ascent.

Here is the great part. My plan at no time requires or demands the nerf of any particular skill. This entire change is directed at the mindset of HA, at the why players play the game, not how.

First a little ethos setup. (AKA a little about me, why I feel like I can talk or have an opinion). My account is currently at 35 Months, of which I have actively played – 2 5 month break. I just got into HA or TOPK just a month or so before the original IWAY was invented. At the tail end of the first Air Spike. I got my Bambi about the time the first tigers were appearing, so I was there for the beginning, or at least some of it. After I got my Bambi, I switched to GvG and did pretty well on the first tourney ladder.

Currently, I am in the HA Guild Puff Puff Pass That [Asian Tag Thingy],

Enough about me.

The problem with HA is the mindset that people approach it with. When there was only Bambis and Wolves in the game, it was easy to find a group; unranked groups could run a balanced or a two monk backline spike and get past UW consistently.

Then came IWAY. Let me clear something up. There was wasn’t anyone who didn’t play IWAY the original. It was powerful; it was the first time some of the standard skills now were seen in HA. Everyone from r0s to iQ ran it. The true problem with IWAY wasn’t that it was a powerful, devastating build that required no brain. The problem was that it suddenly made it possible to win multiple maps very easy, guaranteed, but gave you a very small chance of actually winning the Big Shiny Golden Map –AKA the Hall of Heroes.

As the older, more established players gained fame quickly because they were experienced, the newer players got left in the dust. The only way to get into the good groups was to have the fame. The only way to get the fame was to lame. This means second generation HA players never knew the mindset before IWAY (From now on I will be referring to the Pre-IWAY and Post-IWAY Eras.) All they knew was that the rank x + teams or guilds won halls. They made the mistake thinking that being that rank should somehow let them win too.

Was this fame or ranks fault? Was this the fault of players being elitists? Not really; no. This was a player mindset error. There is generally speaking a difference between a rank six player and a rank nine player. It’s only reasonable to want to play with people who should be as skilled as you. (Author’s Note: I’m not a rank elitist. But I do think that rank helps to judge. I play above and below my rank all the time. I do not think the system is perfect. But I do think it helps.)

The problem with trying to catch up is twofold Firstly the Halls Winning Teams and guilds make fame even faster, so the higher ranked sway players have to keep swaying to try to catch up. The second is that when they get the rank, they don’t know how to play anything else, and then they’re not up to the standard of their rank.

It’s a vicious cycle. (I think Sway is fine for new players – if they play with the right mentality. If it’s about learning what the maps past The Underworld looks like. Then they’re being smart. If it’s just about the fame and being “Good” then they’re already off to the wrong start. Again the mindset of HA at work.

What is the definition of a good HA team? One that makes loads of fame or one that wins halls? With skips being more common these days teams can get two fame hall wins and then hold for three or four wins over a team that can win x amount of maps then loose before getting to the Big Shiny Point of the Game Map. By my definition the team that won halls is better. That’s what the community has forgotten. Fame is/should be secondary. Halls is primary.

After a long setup - this is my thesis: The invention and universal acceptance of builds that earn fame quickly but are not necessarily intended to win the Hall of Heroes ruined the HA community.

How do we fix it? There’s no way we could convince everyone in the HA community to stop running SWAY or ZERGWAY or any other “Winless” build. The “I need fame mentality” is too ingrained in us.

I propose two changes.
1. Some Map Change ups. The current rotation is
1. The Elite Zaishen Battle
2. The Underworld
3. Fetid River
4. Burial Mounds
5. Unholy Temples
6. Forgotten Shrines
7. Golden Gates
8. The Courtyard
9. The Antechamber
10. The Hall of Heroes
The first three elimination maps are excessive; especially two priest maps, when there is also a priest on Golden Gates. I would suggest the removal of the priest on either Fetid or Burial Mounds.

The biggest complaint about maps is generally Cap Points. To win requires multiple people with brains, and that can be pretty hard to find in HA. However, they’re a game wide quasi nerf of Spikes in general. Spikes loose their damage on a split and good pressure teams thrive on splits. I don’t mind one, I used to hate to them, but I like the effect they have had on the meta. I would say keep Forgotten Shrines, because Antechamber is lame. Hall Capture Points is a different mechanic and I think its fine, although King of the Hill is my personal favorite. I also think three way Relic Run is bogus but its not a point I feel like fighting for or against.

The Original relic run map, Sacred Temples wasn’t a favorite either. I would be fine with going from Courtyard to the Hall of Heroes, and would rather see the re-introduction of Broken Tower after Unholy Temples. But with a twist. Split maps are pro Balanced/Pressure teams – Kill Count was pro Spike builds. By adding both to the rotation you encourage both types of builds and balance out the play style. The other suggestion would to make it a mini Hall with three different win situations, Capture Points, Kill Count or King of the Hill. This puts a level of unpredictability into the game for builds and strategies, and will demand more from builds and from players earlier in the map sequence. It’s also an effective limit on non Hall Winning Teams, ones that are influenced by the Post-IWAY era.

2. A change to the fame rate for Heroes Ascent.
Currently the Fame system works in an ascending ratio.

Consecutive wins 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14+
Fame earned 1 2 3 4 6 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40
Total earned 1 3 6 10 16 24 36 52 72 96 124 156 192 192+40*(wins-13)

A Standard SWAY team that has players who have a grasp of their job and position can average 3 consecutive wins. Assuming they play the first Three Elimination Maps. They should not win a relic run against a team with a snare and wands, but it happens. But for the sake of my argument, let’s say they earn 6 fame per run.

Rather than an ascendant fame rate, I propose set rates for the regular maps.

The Underworld , Fetid River, Burial Mounds = 1 Fame.
One versus One Elimination is the most simple objective and the that Post-IWAY era builds favor. This effectively cuts their fame gain in half. In other words it punishes them for grinding fame, but still makes it possible for new players to break into the system.

Unholy Temples = 5 Fame.
This requires more splitting, communication and player intelligence. This map favors balances and teams with smart players Essentially under the new system this would reward players for playing Pre-IWAY era builds.

Forgotten Shrines, Antechamber = 8 Fame
This concept is similar to the one behind Unholy Temples. Reward for
Pre-IWAY builds which have the advantage and a hinderance to pure spike builds.

Golden Gates = 2 Fame
The fame count goes up for this map just because its higher in the roatation. If a Post-IWAY era build makes it here then they should get a small bone I guess.

The Courtyard = 15 Fame
This map is fairly equal for both Balanced and Spike and deadly to Post-IWAY era builds, its also the biggest eliminator before Halls so winning it should reward a player heavily. However if it’s a One Versus One then the fame should drop to 10. Essentially 5 Fame per team involved.

The Hall of Heroes = 24 Fame. Hold Wins = Standard Ascendant Rate
The true test of a good team. Winning Halls is winning Halls regardless if you skipped or not. That is thereal point of HA. If you pay any attention to the game lore then the other maps are just tests. If you skip past them, then maybe you were just worthy.

(Authors Note: If my previous map system was adopted then Broken Tower would be given the same fame count as Courtyard.)
The end result of this change would mean fame would be earned at a lesser rate for all players. But players who play to win, to Hold would receive more benefits in the long run, and players would be forced to adopt more co-ordinated builds and to learn, which would bring competation back into the game pool.

A Few End Notes From the Author.
I know this proboaly wont change anything about HA. I know that even if the Game Devs who troll this site do read it (If someone who knows them wants to point them in this direction please do I’d at least like to get my two cents into the system if possible.) Nothing will happen.

Here comes my final suggestion. Give some control of PvP to the players. Izzy and the team have done a good job, all things considered over the years of keeping things balanced and whatnot. But we in HA get largely ignored these days it seems. This is a message to the Staff of GW. There are still players who enjoy HA, who would like to see its next generation in GW2.
Give us a say in what happens, if the GW Wiki can have officials who manage and lead the site, why can’t the PvP sections (Primarily HA and GvG) Elect like 3 “Senators” or “Representatives” each whose sole job it is to bring the desires of the players into the game? I’m sure this fine Guild Wars Guru establishment would be more than happy to help the team make that happen.
I have no full details on how it would work. Its just food for thought.
Thanks for reading this all the way through. (If you did.) I hope my ideas give you something to think about. If we’re going to try to fix HA, or even keep it alive. Something needs to change.

We need something different.

I welcome discussion/comments/questions.

Teh Jace · May 21, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Even if there was only 1 elimination map for 0.5 fame pvers (aka swayers) would still farm it over and over again.

U can't change one's mentality so easily. They just want their tigers then back to pve and rank their bambi friends. These ppl are willing to spend crazy amount of boring hours for little fame just to reach their funny goal.

Ur proposal offers them 3 fame instead of 6 which is not a big deal for them.

Also the problem is r7 usually doesn't respond to "lf r10+ ppl" announcement which is his/her bad. Ppl just fail at making friends... even in gw lol.

Free Sigils · May 21, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

Even if there was only 1 elimination map for 0.5 fame pvers (aka swayers) would still farm it over and over again.

U can't change one's mentality so easily. They just want their tigers then back to pve and rank their bambi friends. These ppl are willing to spend crazy amount of boring hours for little fame just to reach their funny goal.

Ur proposal offers them 3 fame instead of 6 which is not a big deal for them.

Also the problem is r7 usually doesn't respond to "lf r10+ ppl" announcement which is his/her bad. Ppl just fail at making friends... even in gw lol.

(i'm at work with nothing to do, but cant go home. Trolling my topic ftl)

Yeah I agree, but you can't say that 100% of Swayers and grinders are like that. I'm not even comfortable even saying 50% of them are. And if they really want to work so hard to break down a rank I worked for, then I can't stop them, but cutting their fame intake in half is fine by me. But for those who truly want to PvP its a detterent. Especially on those r9+ sways that I see forming all the time now.

This is just something I'm suggesting would be a first step in a new/better direction. I can't make people be smart and sneak into high groups, and ask for help. But i can at least try to slow down the I want to say "Corruption". But i wont.

Teh Jace · May 21, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Sigils

Yeah I agree, but you can't say that 100% of Swayers and grinders are like that. I'm not even comfortable even saying 50% of them are.

I would say 95% of them are. One must be monkey to enjoy c+space build without vent, without almost any coordination.

What do these ppl think? Let's get r9 with sway and then I can join high ranked tough guys who run serious builds? Very funny...

I understand playing sway for bambi just to get in touch with the maps (information & objectives are here on wiki anyways) and so on. But I don't understand any higher ranked sway grps.. and there are loads of them around. Or do u rly think R/Ders will become pro callers, trappers strong midliners and N/Rt ppl awesome monks?

I rly dont know background of a typical swayer. Maybe they are just too shy to get on vent, maybe they can't speak english and there aren't many ppl from their country playing, maybe they just plainly suck. I dont know.

I think ppl who play balanced want actually good fame & fun, gimmickers maybe just fame... but what do swayers want? Humiliation?

Face it... HA is retarded cuz majority of HAers is retarded. Its simple. Randomways, sways, hways are just food for the minority of high ranked ppl and it will stay like this.

If u swayed ur tiger u are still noob inside and there is nothing u can do about it. U should be ashamed everytime u use /rank.

If u are like r3 and u wanna go serious HA the only way how to do that is to get into good guild or have some high ranked friends. Otherwise u will become sway retard.

This post might sound a little bit arrogant to all swayers but ye... U shouldnt run sway.

Edwards · May 21, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I agree with what you've said. I started HAing when my former PvE guild turned PvP guild invited me to go along with them on a few runs with rtspike. It was a great feeling to win matches, and earn fame, but from the first time I won halls, that's what it's been all about for me. The topic sometimes comes up when I'm talking to people in groups, and somebody asks "Would you rather win halls, or go on a long fame run?" My anwser is halls everytime, which is how it should be, I think. Fame and a flashy emote are nice, of course, but if that's all you're playing for, then it seems to me that there must be something else you could be doing with your time.

Leetwalrushunter · May 21, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

guys why do we worry about sway, randomway is the overpowered stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI0KDG0sqHk

Nuff Said

Killed u man · May 22, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I don't see what you're trying to fix. You're trying to deny new people their fames which is the only reason what keeps HA alive atm.

What killed HA?

The emote, that's it, THE EMOTE

PvE'ers joining merely for the fact they can show of their tigers to their PvE friends and show how 1337 they are.

Ok, assume you can change the mentality. Have people run "real builds", have people work for their fames, gues what, noone is going to play...

The fact is that at this very moment, there is about 0.5% of skilled HA players... Heck, there is people still worshipping certain guilds because of their rep (from the old days) even tough ALL they do is hold with Rspike and hexway...

In the old days, the average HA'er COULD run a innovative bar, something out of the regular. Now, I doubt you can find someone who can run something as simple as Mesmer... (Yeye, we ALL know you own at mesmer in HoH, that's why U were able to PD song AND the Ghostly, right? -Face it, it's rather easy doable on a PD mesmer, more easy with Leech signet)

The current population of HA (Ironicly) doesn't give a sheit about HA. They only want their XX rank. Even the current R10/12+ teams are merely gathering fame for their next rank. (I, -godforbidmeforsayingthis- Lorekeeper, Kyp *who i think quit* and VERY few other people still play for fun. The rest is pretty much *I WANTZ MY TIGER*)

I want to have fun, U clearly do aswell, and a few other handfull people do aswell, but everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE else) only wants the reward.
Try and run something fresh or new that might or might not get you fame.

Seriously, take the test, go spam in ID1: running "myname"way. The first 5 PM's you will get will be:

-Will it work?
-Will it netz me fame?
-Is it worth my time?
-Do I need to think whilst playing the bar?
-DOEEEESS IT CRUSHEz THEM OTHERZ PLAYERZ?

Free Sigils · May 22, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

I would say 95% of them are. One must be monkey to enjoy c+space build without vent, without almost any coordination.

What do these ppl think? Let's get r9 with sway and then I can join high ranked tough guys who run serious builds? Very funny...

See thats the problem, I think that is what noobs think. How are they supposed to know? they see the teams in id 1 looking for rx+ whatever then they see the tag or name a little later in all chat winning halls. For someone who has never played the equation becomes simple.

Rx+ Groups = Halls Win

So they try to find the quickest way to win halls. Thats where the system breaks down.

And yes, I think they think they will become pro players when they get their tiger its all they have to know, because no one who is experienced has told them otherwise.

RotteN · May 22, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

You cannot compare today's HA with the 2005 ToPK. First of all, now, the game is turned inside out and upside down. Back in may/june 2005 only few people knew enough ingame mechanics to make a difference, and everyone was still learning. I remember the chain lightning spikes, oath shot spirit spam (Nature's renewal f*ck yeah!), renewal smiters, and yes, also IWAY (i loved playing IWAY). Then GWWC was announced and all the dedicated PvP players started focussing on GvG.

The thing now indeed is that people know exactly what will work for them, and the goal nowadays is fame, not winning halls. People couldn't care less about their own name / their guild name appearing in some meaningless green text 99% of the people ignores. Fame is merely a sign of how much time someone has spent in HA, and a way to get some bling bling emote.

I highly doubt adjusting the amount of gained fame is going to change anything. Every game needs their retards, i'm just glad they're infesting HA and not GvG ...

Randvek · May 22, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Maybe I fail at this, but I'm not sure how lowering early fame and raising late fame is supposed to narrow the gap between the experienced and the inexperienced. All I can see that doing is frustrating low/no rankers even more. I think your goal is to get low rankers to play more viable builds, but an r3+ balanced is gonna get rolled by r9+ balanced every time. Just sounds like a lot of frustration for lower players.

TheHaxor · May 22, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

What killed HA is that people stopped playing HA. Seriously, it is. It had nothing to do with mentality. With more people playing HA it would be easier for people on all skill levels to form groups. The rank discrimination would be lower because there would be a large amount of people at all skill levels looking for groups. Generally speaking, most of the people you would fight in underworld (and lower level maps) would be those who were consistently losing and getting kicked back out. This would enable all players to have the ability to consistently win matches in the lower level maps. The ability to win consistently on the more advanced style maps would be the indicator of a good player.

Narcotic · May 22, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Well i don't get why ppl bitch about sway. Seriously i saw a lot of rank9 players saying they got rolled by sway. The question is how can you not beat sway? Have a PD mesmer that knows to swtich between 2-3 targets and you win. The problem is that players are lazy and don't want to understand the builds, common strategies and stuff. It's much easier for someone to say "omg infuse ffs" then looking at their bar and saying "hey i might have interrupted a skill from that spike and maybe our infuser would have got that". The problem with HA was never elitism and stuff, the problem was and is the fact that players refuse to understand the game. It's a normal decision for Anet to put the first three maps 1vs1 because they don't need pro teams, they need pve ppl to gain rank because otherwise the same pve ppl will quit the game because they got bored. There are only 3 guilds atm that are active and succesful in HA. Dom, Gank and DRKN. Believe me i would like to see Broken Tower back on track because KoTH maps are my favorite. But that is very unlikely. Your fame system fails because this way you wouldn't make HA more popular. Don't get me wrong i like it. but tell that to the swayers.

Frank Dudenstein · May 22, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

A couple of problems with your theory:

First, lets say you win UW and skip to Halls - do you still get 24 fame? Your method really makes some 'skip' imbalances and would make playing in 'off-hours' much more lucrative.

But that's a minor detail ... you have a couple of major failings in logic:

1. The ratio of Bad HA players to Good HA players is very high. In any given match, regardless of map, the probablility is high that you will face a bad team - only because there are so few good ones. (remember all of those bad team vs bad team matches leads to bad teams reaching the later maps).

And you see, bad players don't run Sway because it beats the good teams, bad players run Sway because it beats other bad players not running Sway (and gives a 50/50 shot to opposing sways).

So you can change the map order and fame counts and objectives and anything else you want. A bad Sway will still beat a bad 'anything else' on any map given any objective ... so people will continue to run it. And when you nerf Sway they will find the next build that beats the other bad teams and run that.

Bad players have accepted that they won't beat GANK and DOM ... and they are not there to become good players. They are there to farm fame vs the other bad teams and will run whatever provides the easiest method of doing so.

2. Let's say you somehow overcome #1 and succeed in limiting the 'fame-farming builds' to 1-2 fame per run. You will only succeed in making HA about as active as Marhan Grotto.

You can complain all day about bad players farming fame with Sway or Iway or any other 'noob-friendly' build, but you had better think twice before you try to 'fix' that 'problem'. You see, most fame-farmers (for a variety of reasons) don't want to get on vent, don't want the hassles of organized grp formation, and don't want to put in the work to understand how to play this game at a high level. They are there for fame, and if they can't win fame with an easy-to-run no-vent build, they will go away. And if that happens there will be about 5 teams worth of players left in HA. Maybe they can all agree to play at the same time and keep the 'no opposing party' count under 50...

3. Let's say you somehow overcome #1 and #2. Sway is still a major problem. (And if Sway is nerfed, whatever next-generation fame-farming build is discovered will become a problem.) Because there is no way to progress from Sway to Balanced and still get by Underworld.

You see, pretty much everyone who starts HA now starts with a fame-farming build. And as you stated, there is nothing wrong with that (there is truly no way to start as a newbie HA-er and run balanced ... go try to run balanced with r0s and you will get claw out your eyes with a backscratcher within 1 week).

But once you gain experience and want to move on to more balanced builds, you are kinda screwed. Because bad Sway will beat bad balanced on Underworld 100% of the time. And you are right back where you started ... no way to learn without getting your teeth kicked in repeatedly. It's no wonder people keep going back to Sway - none of the good players will tolerate newbies learning with them and 8 newbies learning together is a recipe for suicide.

***

Well, I'm really good at pointing out problems ... solutions, on the other hand, are not my specialty

But I think I am safe in saying that changing map rotations and fame counts is not going to magically make people start running balanced or inspire them to be good at the game...

Killed u man · May 22, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

I highly doubt adjusting the amount of gained fame is going to change anything. Every game needs their retards, i'm just glad they're infesting HA and not GvG ...

I can name U 10 top 100 guilds who run nothing but Bloodspike, ShockwaveSpike and A/D spikes...

I can name U 20 guilds if U give me a day of observe....

I can name U 40 guilds if U give me a day of observe, and calculate in the recent Wounding Strike spam, which in overal doesn't require much more active brainwork than Bspike...

Toklom Erocdrah · May 22, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

hey sigils

i agree with frank this would give dead hours farmers too much fame , and if you get skip also ..but tbh you are right peoples run sway to farm 3 first maps(and eventually more if they good)

one major problem is that there are'nt as many peoples playing as one year ago i mean if there was as much peoples playing ha than i saw in pre searing it would be fun , well it's a detail i think being rankist does'nt help at all the fame difference between low ranks is'nt biggy so why caring about ranks until like r5 ?yet peoples still do care and bitch about ranks r3+r4+

oh well if i was low ranked i'd go randomway(kat tet's randomway though..) ... as amazing as it sound i got 40ish fame last night when i was going for a fun run with randomway , we did 6 consec , beat a top 100ish guild in Antechamber (lost in halls sadly) and this with a unranked monk & Tahlkora and of course we gave a hard time to a couple of sways so yeah why waste time forming bad low ranked Pug's when you can have fun and get fame ?

well we had 3 guildie in same team which helps but i mean if we can do it .. you can do it all you need is a good build and a brain

DreamWind · May 23, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

This is really a complicated topic that has been touched on many times.

Basically I disagree with your thesis somewhat, but not completely. I have to agree that fame was probably one factor among many that led to a downfall of HA. When an arena is basically a farming arena, eventually people are going to get bored of it. Various changes made by Anet that were unwanted by the community were also other factors.

I don't think you can blame the builds in themselves particularly though. Those easy to pick up and play fame farming builds are really what kept HA alive in my opinion. Iways heyday was the most populated HA has ever been, because people had a build that was easy to form. You have to remember, saying "go play balanced" is not an easy task for the average individual. It requires a lot of time to set up and probable failure with many attempts. Basically, balanced is not a good fit for pugs, while "fame farming" builds are.

For me personally, I don't think you can change the fame system. It would piss far too many people off and cause new problems. If it was up to me, I would go completely back to the old maps, but then that causes the problem of holding builds that caused all the changes in the first place. At this point though, I've given up all hope that HA can be fixed any other way.

I do give SOME credit to Anet for trying on this one though (where I rarely give them credit elsewhere). Unfortunately, HA, along with just about everything else in Guild Wars nowadays, gives me a "start from scratch" feeling instead of a feeling that it can be fixed the way it is now.

Alex the Great · May 23, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

you know what the real problem is? PvErs arn't playing sway because they want to brag like steryotypical "Will the Wammo", It's because NO ONE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING LETS THEM PLAY ANYTHING ELSE.

if whiners wanna fix fame farming, let people into your groups and teach them to play, because 90% of peoples final goal is to get good and win halls.

but what do i care, I retired from any real form of PvP a long while ago (and it wasnt HA)

Free Sigils · May 23, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Exactly Borat - People want their Emote. Just like PvErs want their GWAMM title. It dosen't matter how hard its made to get it, they will still play for it. Because other people have it, and PVe Farmers of GW are addicted beyond all belief.

Randvek, its obvious that r3s are gonna loose to r9s most of the time. Thats like saying anyone is going to loose ot iQ. But thats how you get better anyway, by fighting people of equal skill level and fighting people of greater skill level.

Back to my theory of sway -> rank -> good groups being the mentality of newer players. One thing i distinctly remember is one of my old guildies from way long ago, still ToPK, getting his r6. He said in Guild Chat "Woohoo I got my r6! Now I can join the Ranger spikes that hold halls."

Let me say something about sway. I don't think I would care if people ran it if the average sway used vent, co-ordinated spikes, collapses and pressures. Instead of

"1 -> 8 2-> 7 3 -> the Mesmer". Then Cspace.

Lame By Fame [GUN] Does this I believe and fighting them vs. Fighting a regular sway is something entirely different. I enjoy those fights usually. Its the lack of co-ordination and brain usage that killed the proper mentality for HA.

This isn't a "OMG run balanced n00b" Thread either. I run balanced, I also have run A/D Spike, and my guild is one of the few that still ritspikes. OMG! Phail!

Yes, my system would promote skip abuse. But a halls win is a halls win imo. (That is the Point of HA is it not?) If its a 1v1 I would say it should be like what I said for Courtyard, 2/3s the fame. But even if you skip to UW odds are at least one of the other two teams didn't and if you win you were probably better than them anyway.

Bry Yeah I know. Not much I can do about that though, is there?

Narcotic....I'm not complaning about sway in the traditional sense. I'm complaining about the type of player it breeds, not its overpoweredness. And Seriously? Those are the "THREE SUCCESSFUL HA GUILDS?" (And vaguely insulted QQ).

Wow. I can name like Seven more off of the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, Those are good guilds, and good players, buuut thats not it. Not yet anyway.

Frank, You mkae some good points that are hard to argue with. But I haven't been to Marhann's Grotto lately, but last night there was two Internation Districts in HA. I dunno when the last time you were there was, But we're pretty much already there. In some ways, I kinda doubt that HA could get anyworse. The "Good" players who are already there and established are either playing for love of the game, or for a burning passion to get their Bird. They're entrenched.

To your Point 3. Basically thats why I'm not saying nerf sway, I'm just saying make it not worth the time to run. Then players who really want to HA who want their title or whatever - Will have to learn. (I would hope anyway)

Toke xD - I agree players with brains are ftw.

Dreamwind - I would dissagree. I would Say HA ended with the Holding style. IWAY just happened to be about the same time. But it was the IWAY mindset that caused the need to end that era.

Alex - Ha needs more players than you. My guild is currently r4-r10 (it was r2-10 a week ago but we've been makign decent fame :O) Less than half of our core has a tiger in fact when the original pre-ban version of my guild used to win a lot, I was r6. My guild has always held to the mindset of brain>rank. If only more people would do that we'd be better off. But I can't make people do that. I wish I could.

Thanks for the good responses guys. I know you all or msot of you don't agree with me, but its been pretty more constructive than what I expected.

Alleji · May 26, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

One thing I agree on is that HoH win should have a minimum fame "cap", whether it's 12 fame, or 15, or somewhere around there (24 is a bit too much for the first HoH win IMO). 2 or 3-fame halls is just lame because matches in HoH are much harder than on burial mounds, take longer, and if you're playing in off-hours you get a good chance at a 15-minute break after your 3-fame win.

I don't know about reducing/increasing fame on other maps, but halls should definitely award a minimum of X and +4 for every hold.

Creeper · May 26, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Sigils

Enough about me.

You forgot the part where you mention that you swayed half your fame and ritspiked the other half. Why on God's earth would anyone with a brain care what you think? Yes HA SUCKS ATM THANKS TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT SWAY THEIR FAME!
I can deal with the fact that the map and objective changes fail. What I am dissatisfied with the most is the fact that legit ha players bounced and we have a crop of r9+ swayers that fail worse than the r3 of yesteryear.
Get past the first 3 maps with a build that isn't sway or ritspike and then maybe you wouldn't look like a total hypocrite/douche.

Here's my thesis, you fail and fame leech off the only good player in your guild who isn't even that good so yeah,gg