Curse

pah01 · Jun 15, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Hey again,

I asked this a long time ago about the assassin. What roles could the class play if you took away the brainlessness of the current character. A lot of people seemed to think of the class as a possible melee mesmer, the problem with the class is as long as its expected role is to go away and solo somebody it will always have broken skillbars.

The problem with the dervish is similar. As long as this class sees play its because of something broken. Either its grenth train, melandru, dervsmite, anything involving spamming of high damage skills.

Its been said that a drawback is low armor with a two handed weapon which makes it fine and balanced.

My belief is this. If there isnt something broken about the class being abused - like one of the above mentioned especially the current wounding striker, nobody will run the class because of the above drawback.

I also say that if avatar of melandru isn't broken its a type of skill that shouldn't be allowed in this type of game. Godmode type skills are stupid and for games like WOW.

So with that in mind what role could the dervish even play?

What would people like to see the class doing? Apart from being made PVE only ^ ^.

Joe

DarkNecrid · Jun 15, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Melee healers!!!

like Wammos but less bad.

Only slightly.

Tab · Jun 15, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

The problem with dervs is an energy based skill system and a primary weapon with huge max damage. That's promoting a spike based class. Scythes hitting AoE doesn't really help either, as that just promotes VoD farming and shit like the current Wounding Strike bars.
I'd have to agree that in their current state, dervs are either going to be telespiking, abusing imba shit like Wounding, or largely useless.

I can't really think of anything a derv would be that would seperate it from wars other than abusive crap.

Draikin · Jun 15, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

So with that in mind what role could the dervish even play?

I think it would be easier to find the answer to that question if they just fixed the broken skills first (even if that means they don't see play anymore) and only then looked at buffing other skills again. Otherwise people will just compare the newly buffed skills/builds to what the class can already do: run in Godmode or spam an AoE deep wound. The same goes for assassins: the idea to overhaul the class and turn them into a "melee ranger" is interesting, but you can't do that as long as people can use them to run mindless instagib combo's.

pah01 · Jun 15, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

If you cannot understand why a God avatar that makes you immune to half the snares and melee hate in the game along with immunity to death then you shouldn't be allowed in the gladiators arena.

@Draikin. I agree with what you are saying but we must have a concept behind the dervish to aim for, otherwise the class will not see play ever when its properly nerfed.

Joe

kosh · Jun 15, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

In what way [[Avatar of Melandru] 'godmode'? Temporary +100 Health is no big deal. Immunity to Conditions? So what? If your PvP build relies completely on applying conditions, perhaps it should be changed... Me, I'm looking forward to capping it with my Dervish so I can go back to EotN and kick some serious Mandragor abdomen in revenge. :P

yes +100 hp and Immunity to conditions make u god mode, and thats after AOM has been nerfed. as ppl stated b4 the only play derv sew in gvg was spike, trees, or Ws dervs now. there was never a balanced derv build for gvg ( well some run healer derv or Aol but not for long). so we have a class that other then imba skills can not see game play, it seems that in order to push the derv into play izzy have to over buff them so ppl will use them, to the point that taking a war is retarded because a derv can apply DW every 3,cover it with bleeding, have Aoe dmg, and dont even have to build up adrenaline. and back ti the point, when trees were everywhere in gvg so did b surge was, so being immune to blind, cripple, and any other condition and the fact that u can push as fat u could want with the knowing that u have 700 hp and cant be spiked was a big deal. it seems that no matter what temp the derv play, it play imba gimmick builds,skills, that most of the time based upon 1 powercreep skill. just look when NF came out, Aog removed enc on every strike, so that was the meta for derv. on the other hand, war builds today have reached sort of balanced state. crip war is great, evic still see play, haammer with the buff to magehunter see more play. but nothing is over power.

fix derv. make use to them outside gimmick or just bad play.

helios.

Draikin · Jun 15, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

@Draikin. I agree with what you are saying but we must have a concept behind the dervish to aim for, otherwise the class will not see play ever when its properly nerfed.

The thing is that there's already been an interesting discussion with alternative concepts for the assassin profession, but from what I've read Izzy and Anet seem to think broken skills are a good thing as long as it means the profession is being used. It took that long for instagib sins to be nerfed simply because Izzy said that "they were doing what they were supposed to do", regardless of whether or not that was actually bad for the game.

With the dervish it's the same problem really. If Anet won't even see that there is a problem with the way the profession is used now and what it actually contributes to the gameplay, then discussing these changes is pointless. They'll just continue to do what they're doing now: buffing skills to make them more and more ridiculous just so they can compete with the other already imbalanced skills in the game.

It's not like the community really seems to care anymore either, this thread already turned into a RA discussion about Dervish kicking ass in RA with daggers...

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 15, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

What's the point of this thread? If you think for a moment that Anet is willing to do complete class overhauls at this point you're delusional.

kosh · Jun 15, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

What's the point of this thread? If you think for a moment that Anet is willing to do complete class overhauls at this point you're delusional.

as seeing that izzy is not even willing to do minor changes at this time (beside buffing random skills) we can say that about any thread.

maybe if we all qq together and over multiply threads someone will listen to us.

wait.no.

shoogi · Jun 15, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Dervishes and Paragons were implemented to please the pve community that wanted a 'bard' and a wammo class. They have no PvP niche to fill that didn't exist before. Same thing can be said, to a lesser extent though, about Rits and Assassins. Those at least brought something new. The only thing Dervishes and Paragons can do is screw up game balance.

Krill · Jun 15, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I have always thought the class was designed to satisfy PvE players with a super wamo. It's an entire martial class with attack skill that do nothing but bonus damage and conditions, no interrupts and no kd's. Even sins have more flexibility and skill requirement than that. Dervs do have a long list of varied skills, yet the class is entirely uninteresting to build or play =/

Takida · Jun 15, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I dont see potential in thiss Class to be a Balanced class in PvP.

I dont see potential in any of the Factions/Nightfall Classes in PvP.

So thats why i suggest they be removed from PvP while they can still be played in the PvE side of the game, I doubt anet would do anything like this, But i see it as the only way to get this game in right direction.

Taki.

Reverend Dr · Jun 15, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

The problem of dervishes has allways been the scythe. To address this problem would require a complete overhaul and simply is never going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

What's the point of this thread? If you think for a moment that Anet is willing to do complete class overhauls at this point you're delusional.

The Meth · Jun 15, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

What purpose can the dervish be changed to be in this game? The original idea of enchantment cycling is made to fail, Avatars just make them imbamachines for 50% of the time, and Wounding Strike is a spammable deep wound on a 3s timer with a cover condition.

We already had the warrior as a balanced class with 3 different weapons which all had at least a decent balance between them and had different playstyles, then Anet decided we needed another melee profession with nightfall. Why? I can't think of a good melee role that wasn't already being played by the warrior. I CAN think of a few imbalanced/degenerate roles, which is the way the dervish has gone.

The dervish needs a complete overhaul, a good place to start would be reducing maximum scythe damage a lot, maybe 9-41 to 16-30ish. This makes it less random while greatly reducing the omgwtfcriticalhit damage.
(offtopic) Paragons could use the same change, 14-27 to 12-22ish. Spears are just as imbalanced.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jun 15, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Izzy will not change dervs anytime soon because he wants all the classes "viable" in gvg, that why splinter and arage took so long to die.

Killed u man · Jun 16, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Problem is that there is no "Golden Middle Line" for Dervs and Paragons.

With Prophecies, the game was relatively balanced. Sure, each profession only had 1 bar that was played (Shock/Gale Warrior, anything else? N ty).
However, the system was round, and completed eachother.

You had the perfect Triangle (Or sixtangle I gues), there was NO NEED for anything else. The Factions came along, and Anet had to give people a reason to buy it. Overpowered professions that would completely throw off the current harmony existing between the classes.
(Ok, sins were highly useless, but Ritspammers were OP since the beginning in other parts of PvP, besides GvG)
BUT it was acceptable. Ok, you had overpowered spirit spammers, you had the base for Mobius/Deathblossom PvE farming, you had Return Monks etc etc...
This was a sign tough. This was the "game" in general saying: Any more professions will throw this balancing elephant off the ball.

What happened tough? New campaign, new reason for people to buy it needed, so they gave us the imbagon and the improved Wammo.

HOW can U expect classes that weren't ever needed to be balanced, leave alone "usefull" without being overpowered?
What NF did was the same as what Factions did, only a magnitude higher.
Yes, I believe the rit CAN be salvaged.
As an alternative healer with some "Spirit" Summoning capabilities.

Anything else simply is too "unneeded" for it ever to be worth taking over already existing professions.
Ok, let's assume all the professions were made on par with eachother:

WHY would you want to take a Para when U can take an extra Warrior, Rit or a Monk. (For the Healing/Offence capablities)
WHY would you want to take a Sin over a Warrior?
WHY would you want to take a Derv over a Warrior or a Monk?

I know, that's the intire point of this thread. We got to give these professions something unique, something worth taking them for. But like I said: NOTHING IS NEEDED.
So it will either be something unique that is going to be "superiour" than the already existing class. (Most likely Warrior or Monk)
Or it will still be something useless...

Deleting them is the only option, if U want to remove the gimmicks from PvP...

erk · Jun 16, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

There always seems to be some type of reverse logic in these types of threads. Firstly if a class was broken then it wouldn't get played. So the OP's definition of "broken" is twisted to suit his needs, which seems to be along the line of lets have a thread wanting to reduce the existing functionality of an already popular class, instead of learning to live with it and adapt to it. If after all this time you are still getting pwnd in the face by AoM or WS Dervish's, and have done nothing about it, then don't cry me a river on a forum under the guise of a thread on a possble future role of a Dervish.

Like IMMORTAlMITCH pointed out above, Anet won't do a class overhaul now. Sure GW2 is round the corner, but a class overhaul would have been done a year ago if they truly believed the Dervish was broken, thus not getting played. Clearly A.net don't think AoM and scythes are broken, and even WS would have been nerfed last update if the recent buffs were considered over the top. If the Dervish was truly over powered then you wouldn't see any other melee class played for fear of loosing, and then A.net would look at why those other melee classes weren't popular and do something about it.

Sure I find many things about facing Dervishes annoying too, but I have no shortage of ways of dealing with them in AB/RA/TA/GvG/HA without petitioning for class overhauls!

Boring.

Taurus · Jun 16, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

If the scythe's attack skill bonus and effects applied only to the main target, the derv class and scythe "X"/D builds would be more balanced.

GourangaPizza · Jun 16, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Dervish, Paragons, Ritualists and Assassins fulfill the hybrid roles too well not to be ignored. If Guild Wars don't have speccing of secondary professions, maybe there is a reason to have these professions implemented. Otherwise I see no reason in creating fixed 'hybrids' at all.

Blame the Monks · Jun 16, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

para - ranged melee classed based around sick ranged dps, uncounterable echo gimmicks, and passive defense

Derv - melee class based around scythe crit damage, enchantment stacking gimmicks, and unremovable godmode forms

ass - melee class based around instagib combos and imba shadowstepping propped up by power support skills that are better in a real classes's hands

rit - attempt at a hybrid healer class based around shitspam, unremovable weapon gimmicks, and splinter

Anet did reel gud on the expansion toons, eh? Of the Prophecies classes, none where inherently gimmicks (necro is pretty close), but all 4 of the expansion toons are hopeless gimmicks that should be removed.

Classic GvG mode ftw.