Curse

Edwards · Jun 21, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

If dervsmite is so OP, let's abuse it, same goes for ursan and all the other PVE skills. Just use and have fun

It isn't fun though. I play PvP to have a challenge and test my skill, not to farm. 123123123123123 is only amusing for so long, no matter how much damage you're doing.

DutchSmurf · Jun 21, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

I think the most surprising thing here is that this thread got to 3 pages. Didn't think there were that many PvP players left. But after reading through it, I noticed the number was misleading because most people had no idea what they were talking about/reacting on people without a clue.

Anet doesn't care about balance or Anet doesn't know how to balance. Sad thing is I don't know which one is more true. After all, the only good updates were done after the community basically spelled them out and Izzy could just copy/paste.

notrich · Jun 21, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

People like to bash Izzy (justified or not), but I would to point something out.

His bosses think that he is doing a good enough job.

Think about that.

I am beginning to wonder if ANET is driving players away on purpose to reduce server load/cost (and CREATE churn - most companies like to REDUCE churn). Churn is a term describe LOSING customers over time that you have already invested (advertising/startup gifts) in to get them on board with your product (typically used in cellular phone industry - you give them the phone and then stick it to them with the monthly bills and hope they don't leave - then if they threaten to leave there is a last second offer of a deal to help them stay).

The anet business model is (apparently) get them to buy the product once and then after a sufficient time (time enough to get proficient and then become bored with the ease of pve and the lack of whatever in pvp) drive them away to create room/bandwidth for new paying customers. (Note: WoW AoC and other mmo's want to keep you paying the monthly fee so they give you new hamster wheels to run on).

regarding play balance - I believe it should be automated. A thread from a while ago take the designers/balancers out of it- ensign mentioned +7 systems (a company that does that sort of thing), but that he didn't think it would work in GW. I say it couldn't possibly be worse...

Aera · Jun 21, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

What my biggest question is if it's honestly that much of an effort to read a couple of posts on the forums and changing some numbers in some skills to make people happy. How retarded you have to be to not be able to do that?

DarkNecrid · Jun 21, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

I really hope izzy comments for the guru cup so someone can phone in and call him out on game balance.

iirc Bill said he is or most likely will be!!

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What my biggest question is if it's honestly that much of an effort to read a couple of posts on the forums and changing some numbers in some skills to make people happy. How retarded you have to be to not be able to do that?

Most of the developers are doing GW2 99% of the time, and they have to physically change the numbers/functionality/etc.

Whenever they can get the two codemonkeys on GW2 replaced and moved to GW1, I'm hoping we'll see more of an improvement in this area, but I doubt it. You still have 1 skill balancer split between two games. This like, almost never happens in anything, as far as I know, because that makes the skill balancing in both games less than average, which makes me fear for GW2.

notrich · Jun 21, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Whenever they can get the two codemonkeys on GW2 replaced and moved to GW1

??? not sure what you mean here - do you think they are going to move people back to GW1 after GW2 release? Wouldn't they be working on the GW2 expansion? I hope they set some interns loose on GW1 when crunchtime is over for GW2.

I sincerely hope they are using the knowledge of what does and doesn't work in GW1 to help make GW2 better... but, it just doesn't look like they know what is wrong with GW1.

DarkNecrid · Jun 21, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by notrich

??? not sure what you mean here - do you think they are going to move people back to GW1 after GW2 release? Wouldn't they be working on the GW2 expansion? I hope they set some interns loose on GW1 when crunchtime is over for GW2.

I sincerely hope they are using the knowledge of what does and doesn't work in GW1 to help make GW2 better... but, it just doesn't look like they know what is wrong with GW1.

Regina mentioned on her talk page that once they get 2 people hired on GW2 to take their place, they are moving Lindsey Murdock (?) and some other guy to focus on GW1 completely, a developer and programmer, while the rest focus on GW2.

Bobby2 · Jun 21, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I'm not going to argue for perfect balance, but it seems ANet leaves a lot of obviously broken issues undealt with

... doesn't give me lots of hope for GW2 I'm afraid

Billiard · Jun 21, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Izzy has been really busy for over the past year due to GW2. They had a someone else helping with Balance for a while, but I have not seen much from him for a while.

Whenever a meta gets stale like this, people complain about balance. It has happened numerous times over the past 3 years. Yes things could be better, and I expect a balance update coming before the Guru Challenge that hopefully will address some of these. Izzy probably wants to check out what gets run in the mAT before making any major changes. At this point in the game they have are being pretty conservative in changes because they don't have a lot of time or people to go back and quickly change things up when things get screwed up. As such, you all should have learned long ago that there would not be many major changes to skills.

That said, go over to the AoC or QQ forums and read about what people are saying about balance in that game. As bad as people are claiming things to be for GW, and as bad as much as people seem to think ANet has abandoned GW in terms of balance, that brand new game is a lot worse.

Anyway I think the point being made is that it would be nice to have a full time skill balancer for GW again, and with that I would agree. Piling on all this extra bullshit doesn't help the cause and is just useless trolling - and will be treated as such.

DarkNecrid · Jun 21, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

GW in terms of balance is a lot better than just about everything else out on the market, but we should still strive for it to be better than it is now. I don't think a lot of people are asking for major changes to skills, but rather simple number changes. I don't think very many people actually like functionality changes unless if it was to a completely useless skill anyways. Stuff like WoH's healing, Wounding Strikes condition order, etc, aren't really major changes in my mind, since that is simple number changing in the code. There's just a lot of numbers that need to be changed, and a few important bugs (Chilling)

A full time skill balancer is really the heart of the issue though. In order to properly skill balance a game, you need to have the utmost focus on that one game. Being split between two games doesn't help a skill balancer at all, and makes both games suffer. I hope there is an update before the GWG tournament, because otherwise the commentary will be very boring. I don't even obs anymore, honestly, the meta is truly stale and just plain boring to watch. You've watched one obs match, you've basically watched them all atm.

Even if you're not saying he will do a balance, obviously you're most likely hinting at it, but I am somewhat having high hopes here, so. Here's hoping!!

But I don't think they really have another skill balancer in mind though, so.

Age · Jun 21, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I would have say to that split in skills Anet dug thmeselves into a big hole and don't know how to get out of it without a lot of QQing going on.

Div · Jun 21, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

A full time skill balancer is really the heart of the issue though. In order to properly skill balance a game, you need to have the utmost focus on that one game. Being split between two games doesn't help a skill balancer at all, and makes both games suffer.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with this game right now. In the first two years, I'd say Izzy did a decent job at keeping the game relatively balanced with skill > gimmick. Ever since nightfall, things have been going downhill, with the focus on GW2 and the partial abandoning of GW1. Add TF2 and whatever other games he plays and enjoys more, it really takes away from the focus of this current game.

Quote:

I hope there is an update before the GWG tournament, because otherwise the commentary will be very boring. I don't even obs anymore, honestly, the meta is truly stale and just plain boring to watch. You've watched one obs match, you've basically watched them all atm.

sup and dR play new stuff! Oh wait, they don't play.

So, last time we played (lol?), we ran a different build every round. Part of it was us trying to figure out a non-lame build that doesn't completely suck and get dominated. Another part is that people simply don't care about the game enough to plan good builds ahead of time and ends up being a BYOB type build 5 minutes before going in.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 21, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Like honestly I don't even find the game that broken. There are so many very simple tweaks that would make this game infinitely more pleasant for me and probably the rest of the population. The fact problems are given a chance to become so intractable completely astounds me. That dumb oversights are just ignored frustrates me quite profoundly.

I notice many details, from the minor fact I have no real control over the aesthetics of my Hall of Monuments and that ecto farming using SF is depreciating my stash, to the obnoxious 1-2-3 shit in every format; hexspam in HA, dervsmite in GvG, AT pairings and sin / monk prevalence in HB, smite and hexspam in TA.

And I think that the problem I think isn't entirely incompetence on Isaiah's part. The problem is that many people who seriously play the game have become overqualified, and their practical experience supersedes any theorycrafting that A-Net's "finest minds" can produce. They're increasingly adept at developing imba shit builds and outpacing the lax update schedule, and the update inevitably gets blasted anyways; everyone says that changes are not significant enough, changes are overly significant, changes fail to address the problem but I've rarely heard anyone say that changes are never proper. And the changes are rarely proper, but I don't know if it's for a lack of trying.

I understand that in part some of the problems are unfixable; the framework of some problems can't be completely remedied, and to expect complete and prompt balance is unrealistic. However, clearly a stronger job can be done than presently.

DutchSmurf · Jun 21, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Izzy probably wants to check out what gets run in the mAT before making any major changes.

Problem is that the guilds coming out on top will be the guilds running a balanced build without resorting to dervsmite and the like. Just like last month. If you balance a game around rawr, sup, uF and StS, you get something like we have now.

DarkNecrid · Jun 22, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

^Basically that.

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Yeah, that's the biggest problem with this game right now. In the first two years, I'd say Izzy did a decent job at keeping the game relatively balanced with skill > gimmick. Ever since nightfall, things have been going downhill, with the focus on GW2 and the partial abandoning of GW1. Add TF2 and whatever other games he plays and enjoys more, it really takes away from the focus of this current game.

He did a fabulous job, because he was focused on it completely. Did he make a few mistakes? Well, yeah sure, who doesn't? Did he do a few bad nerfs or buffs? Of course. But was the game fun? Oh hell yeah.

Man, there are so many people in this community who could do a really good job. Me (LOOOL), you divine, Ensign, JR, etc etc etc etc, and these are people who would do a good job and keep a good community going, explain everything appropriately, and make the game fun again. The problem is is ArenaNet (as far as I know) is not currently considering this an issue, or anything to think about really. Jeez, I think any of us would do it for free too! I just wish the community could help out, because there is a ton of issues and it's no surprise one guy split between two games with somewhat inadequate CR is failing hard. Everyone says FIRE IZZY, but the problem isn't Izzy, the problem is the circumstances he happens to be in. You could throw any skill balancer in the same circumstances and he'd fail. If the people who balanced StarCraft also had to balance WarCraft 3, maintain a real life, and still play other games, I absolutely guarantee you it would have been absolutely terrible.

Legendary Shiz · Jun 22, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I never understood why Ensign didn't get the job, or at least some job with Anet for GW.

He understood the game better than anybody, no doubt.

DarkNecrid · Jun 22, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I never understood why Ensign didn't get the job, or at least some job with Anet for GW.

He understood the game better than anybody, no doubt.

idk, maybe he doesn't live in WA/never applied?

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jun 22, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

He gave them his consulting fees.

darkdreamr · Jun 22, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

And I think that the problem I think isn't entirely incompetence on Isaiah's part. The problem is that many people who seriously play the game have become overqualified, and their practical experience supersedes any theorycrafting that A-Net's "finest minds" can produce. They're increasingly adept at developing imba shit builds and outpacing the lax update schedule, and the update inevitably gets blasted anyways; everyone says that changes are not significant enough, changes are overly significant, changes fail to address the problem but I've rarely heard anyone say that changes are never proper. And the changes are rarely proper, but I don't know if it's for a lack of trying.

There's a difference between power creep, which is kinda ANet's fault, and the inevitable meta staleness that inevitably happens. Even if they update every week on Thursday, by Friday someone will have the next OP build, on Saturday everyone will find out about it, on Sunday we start getting the qq that blah blah is a bug, blah blah should be nerfed, incessantly until the next update.

I think we are as much to blame as Izzy for the prevalence of imbalanced gimmicks. I think the average skill level of pvpers has declined over time after peaking sometime between factions and nightfall. Why? Because if you compete on a balanced level, the most skilled players will always win. So if you want to beat those top 5% of players, you have to exploit some mechanics or pull out some trick to give you an edge. There's nothing wrong with that, it's often just creativity. But as people have become better and better at finding and using these advantages, and building entire teams around them, it's gotten to the point where people play so much gimmick they don't bother playing balanced to get better.

But that's what we get for having a game with thousands of skills. So many that even now, people are still figuring out better ways to put them together. Be careful what you wish for when you yell at Izzy to balance the game, because really what that means is to vastly reduce the number of skills and the variety of their effects (which is where I'm afraid GW2 is going).

To sum up, in any complicated, dynamic system, there is no way to achieve an unchanging balance, nor would I want to...since that would be utterly boring. I actually think ANet has done a remarkable job compared with other games. It must have been incredibly difficult. Where can they improve?

1) Power creep. It skews whatever balance there was and forces you to do 10 times the work rebalancing everything. Example: Nightfall screwed balance for a long time, and arguably still does, because the classes and skills were too good. This forced unpopular and repeated nerfs/adjustments and wasted a lot of time.

2) Bugs. Broken mechanics that are unintentional also screw up your whole balancing system and makes it harder to keep things where you want them. You either have to balance around the bug, which often results in too widespread of a nerf, or ignore the bug and leave the balance messed up. Stuff has to be fixed much faster.

3) More precise adjustments. When Angorodon's Gaze came out, people quickly figured out how to pair it with Mantra of Recovery to make a ridiculous ranged touch build. First Mantra was nerfed from 50% to 33% recharge, then Angorodon's was later nerfed to decrease the energy return if I recall right. That doesn't make sense to me. Mantra may or may not have been overpowered, but the first step should be to adjust the newly introduced skill, not touch a skill like Mantra that has broad implications.

Just my 3 cents.

shoogi · Jun 22, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

If it comes to people giving up asking for balance and just asking to fix bugged skills (which there are TONS of, and if Anet did give a shit then they would take the 3 secs to enter skill's wiki pages and see the "anomaly") then the state of Guildwars is BAD. And Anet even fail to fix bugged skills. I still wonder how come there isn't excessive abuse of the [mark of instability] or [confusing images] glitches yet.

Izzy did pretty well in the first year and a half or so, but I honestly can't see how all those NF skills can be fit into balance. He is trying, but the harm was done years ago when anet added 4 unnecessary professions and 600 unnecessary skills. I don't think that replacing Izzy will do much to solve the problem.
However, our demand to fix BUGGED skills is MORE THAN REASONABLE.