Curse

Lordhelmos · Jul 03, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

When WoH or RC get locked down, teams auto-lose. You want to win the monthly? Find a pro dshot, humsig, or diversion. That's really what the meta boils down two; who can lock the backline elites first. It's pretty stupid imo.

That's why you see good teams like rawr running retardedly defensive stuff for the meta, like 4 monks and SoJ knockdown madness. They spread their defenses along the lines of 3-4 characters as opposed to just the RC and WoH.

And when their humsig mesmer locks RC and the SoJ knockdowns take down the WoH guy, they win.

Seeing entire games capsize over a one skill disable is absolutely unacceptable. All the high end players quit because of stuff like this.

Riotgear · Jul 03, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Give minor buffs to Gift of Health and party heals and we can talk about nerfing WoH.

Humility wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem right now if it wasn't for Wounding Strike.

erk · Jul 03, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Might as well throw it in here:

Nerf Rspike.

Fix the Glass Arrows + Favorable + Brutal + Paragon buffs etc build.

QQ it's HA who cares...

Just throwing in out here, 30-40% of the teams in HoH are Rspikes, About 10% Sfspikes and then a 50 % rest...

Spike is redicilous, (experise makes rangers strooong) very fast and continuous. They can keep on going for hours straight.

QQ

I agree, there are a lot of 3 Ranger R-spike teams, probably several times more than there really needs to be for variety. The problem is how are you going to nerf it? If you reduce skill damage then they will just use 4 Rangers on the spike instead of 3, if you increase recharge or energy cost, then they will just take a little longer between the spikes and still pwn most teams. Your might be able to do something like make Glass Arrows an enchantment instead of a preparation so it can be stripped.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Jul 04, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Your might be able to do something like make Glass Arrows an enchantment instead of a preparation so it can be stripped.

then just watch teams stack read the wind with it and spike with only 2 rangers.

GourangaPizza · Jul 04, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

^ At least Brutal won't work...

Kwisatz_Haderach · Jul 04, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

and then orders come back as the primary way of upping the damage

Riotgear · Jul 05, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

What makes R-spike work has always been a bunch of incremental improvements to the damage. Forked Arrow could certainly use a tap, Sloth Hunter's has been a bit silly ever since it came out, hard to do much else.

EDIT -- 2,000 posts. /flex

Shmanka · Jul 05, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Humility wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem right now if it wasn't for Wounding Strike.

You have that backwards, really.

Signet of Humility has been in EVERY single broken build, and still is. If you boil down to it, doesn't it seem absolutely retarded how a non-elite skill all by it self can lockdown an elite skill for over half the game?...

Signet of Humility does everything any domination mesmer ever wanted to do.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jul 05, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

If you let humility get off on recharge you're either bad or [rawr]

Zuranthium · Jul 05, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Signet of Humility does everything any domination mesmer ever wanted to do.

o_O , no.

Although what Mitch said is not valid reasoning if trying to argue that Sig Hum is balanced.

~Z

Riotgear · Jul 05, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

You have that backwards, really.

Signet of Humility has been in EVERY single broken build, and still is. If you boil down to it, doesn't it seem absolutely retarded how a non-elite skill all by it self can lockdown an elite skill for over half the game?...

Humility only works when some particular way of accomplishing things is so broken that the only practical way of dealing with it is one elite. When things hit that point, you're going to get rocked by a Diversion or D-shot anyway. It was like that before with LoD, and the problem is not Humility, it's that everything's riding on a single point of failure.

Zuranthium · Jul 06, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Diversion and D-shot don't give you a 100% chance of shutting that one thing down just by clicking a button and spending....0 energy. Sig Hum is dumb.

~Z

Lordhelmos · Jul 06, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

I think that Z has a point in Signet of Humility being stupid. But what people should really see out of this is that Signet of Humility's current effectiveness reveals how imbalanced the skill distribution in Guild Wars currently is.

In a full GvG/HA team you have 8 players carrying 8 elites and a skill pool total of 64 skills.

In the current meta teams are folding and collapsing because ONE single skill out of those 64 gets locked out. That doesn't sound very balanced to me. This entire meta can't be "balanced" because one super strong elite skill like WoH or RC is supporting the survival of the entire team.

Like I said before, when that skill gets locked, people die. Teams should not be falling apart over the loss of ONE skill when they have a skill pool as large as 64 skills.

The problem with Guild Wars is that 20% of the skill in the game are grotesquely effective while the other 80% are either complete trash or serve only to support the 20% that do work.

The solution to the problem is the make other skills suck less, and make the overpowered slightly less retarded. Push the effectiveness of non-elite trash skills up to the point to where if a dumb skill like Hum Sig disables one elite skill, the team doesn't sink like a the Titanic running into an iceberg.

Wounding Strike is Stupid, Word of Healing is Stupid, Restore Conditions is Stupid, Signet of Humility is Stupid...

The entire metagame right now is stupid. That's why all the top pvper's are either on private WoW servers or paddling their canoes to the beaches of Age of Conan.

Killed u man · Jul 06, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

snip

Well, on a bar of 8 skills, 6 times out of 8, the Elite skill is the main skill of the bar. It's the skill that carries the bar. This is mainly the consequence of Nightfall. (Which brought us PLENTY of OP elites, and buffs to Proph Elites aswell) -Rangers have [distracting shot] and Mes' have [Diversion], both which also deserve elite status fyi-

This skill obviously IS supposed to be the most "OP" skill on te bar, thus it's elite status.

Also, after 3 years of GW, nearly 2 years of NF, bars in GW have been compressed to an extend where every skill does become vital.

Where as we used to have monks with, let's say mend ailment (Or condi, whatever), we now have Monks with dismiss. (Well, recently RC has been elite of choice, but usually the Heal monks still carries dismiss)

Dismiss on a bar now, servers as 2 skills on a bar as it was in 2005/6. Back then, we had Sig of Devotion (Or GoH) and Mend Condi, now we have Dismiss Condition. It's obvious that when you shut this skill down, you're shutting down both condi removal AND an extra heal for the Monks.

It's been like that with invividual skills, aswell as overal gameplay. A game is really compressed. Less and less mistakes are being made. GvG has turned into a machine, perfectly oiled, working overhours just to keep up with the rest. When you take away the backbone of a bar, WoH, RC, Wounding Strike, ... that bar easily loses effectiveness for over 30%. (Like I said, elites carry the bar)

There is few ways to solve this:

-> Dumb'en people. Shutdown now is still the same as shutdown in '05/6. Problem now is that, after 3 years of play, every guild KNOWS exactly how to abuse 1 elite being down. E.G. let 8 PvE'ers play with 8 PvE'ers, with same builds, running current meta with a Hum Mes. You'll find that (Besides the fact that they will both collapse fast, because Derv = buttonbash, and monking requires skill nontheless) they WON'T collapse faster if WoH gets locked. -I know it's just speculation, but seriously, you can try it, it WILL end up like this-

-> Do whatever has been proposed already. More power to regular skills, less to elite.

or simply:

-> Nerf any form of guaranteed brainless buttonbash shutdown. Signetmes obv...

erk · Jul 06, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

erk, the questions "is profession X viable as a damage dealer" and "can you design a HA spike build out of profession X" are totally different questions my friend, and answering yes to one question doesn't mean it's the same for the other.

Also, your entire argument is wrong because Paragons are not an offensive class, they are midline support.

Good, then people should stop moping about spears being over powered if they can prove it with a viable spear based offensive team build for HA et al.

deluxe · Jul 06, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I'd like to see buffs to wounding strike, strength of honor and conjures. Add +38 conditional damage to WS, and up the damage from soh and conjure to 20 at 6 spec.

Riotgear · Jul 06, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

As I said, Signet of Humility has always been a symptom of a larger problem. When damage levels were out of control, taking out LoD broke teams. When hexes were out of control, taking out Divert Hexes broke teams. Now when Wounding Strike is out of control, taking out RC breaks teams.

Nobody is complaining about the previous situations because they were taken care of. Training RC wouldn't be nearly as effective if covered Deep Wound wasn't being relentlessly spammed all over your team.

moriz · Jul 06, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

signet of humility:

disables your Elite skill for x seconds. for every second your elite skill is disabled, target foe's Elite skill is also disabled.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Jul 06, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

signet of humility:

disables your Elite skill for x seconds. for every second your elite skill is disabled, target foe's Elite skill is also disabled.

Then the Signet Mesmer would just not run an elite.

kostolomac · Jul 07, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Nerfing SoH won't do anything , since the greatest problem is WS. As Riotgear said , SoH is only in the background of the problem , nerfing WS is the way to go , it's only sad that Izzy is in love with dervishes.