Curse

kostolomac · Jun 25, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

And i would agree with you.

garethporlest18 · Jun 25, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I would post remove Dervishes from the game, but people would rage at me so I won't.

Yeah but then they would have to remove assassins and paragons too.

DreamWind · Jun 25, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Yeah but then they would have to remove assassins and paragons too.

And the problem with this is...?? (add rits btw)

Greedy Gus · Jun 26, 2008, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Revert to bleeding with no enchant, deep wound if enchant.
That wasn't broken before right? so revert it.

QFT. It's not an interesting skill that you would want to buff in the first place, especially not removing the conditionality where decision-making is at least a small part of usage. Simply stop trying to make dervs viable without AoM by dumb buffing deep wound skills, unless you're actually going to think up a desireable role/skillbar to push toward.

erk · Jun 26, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Yeah but then they would have to remove assassins and paragons too.

Eventually we could simplify it even further to just two professions, one which makes red bars go down, and the other which make red bars go up, say just Warriors and Monks, and they can just slug it out for 20min. There would still be cries of imbalance or stale metas as different skill bars went in and out of popularity.

The only sure fire solution is to remove choice altogether, and have fixed team composition like chess pieces. I guess a fixed team template form of GvG might be a viable new format suggestion for GW2, I would certainly give something like that a try, perhaps it could have new templates each month based on player feedback in skill balance discussions etc.

DreamWind · Jun 26, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Eventually we could simplify it even further to just two professions, one which makes red bars go down, and the other which make red bars go up, say just Warriors and Monks, and they can just slug it out for 20min. There would still be cries of imbalance or stale metas as different skill bars went in and out of popularity.

The only sure fire solution is to remove choice altogether, and have fixed team composition like chess pieces.

Prophecies was like chess in a way. It had all the neccessary pieces for a dynamic game. Adding 4 new classes was basically like adding pieces to chess...it would not be chess anymore. Guild Wars is not the same game anymore, and will never be as long as the new pieces are involved.

erk · Jun 26, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Prophecies was like chess in a way. It had all the neccessary pieces for a dynamic game. Adding 4 new classes was basically like adding pieces to chess...it would not be chess anymore. Guild Wars is not the same game anymore, and will never be as long as the new pieces are involved.

I understand what your saying, Prophecies still had over 450 skills to choose from, that meant the chess analogy was dependent on a stable "buildwars" meta at any given time. Chess has like 6 skills and they are the same on each team, which would bore the crap out of 8 real players, but locking skill choices might encourage competitive play instead of relying on some exploitable meta holding it together.

Perhaps fixed skill templates for a monthly tournament series might encourage some competitive play. I'm pretty sure the current game engine can do that sort of stuff, similar things happen in some of those PvE festival mini-games, Dwaven boxing etc. Just needs expansion to offer up a different skill bar for each profession.

Problem. · Jun 26, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

QFT. It's not an interesting skill that you would want to buff in the first place, especially not removing the conditionality where decision-making is at least a small part of usage. Simply stop trying to make dervs viable without AoM by dumb buffing deep wound skills, unless you're actually going to think up a desireable role/skillbar to push toward.

That is part of the problem. The game designers seemed to have thought "hmm....lets make anotherm melee class" but they didn't think of what role they wanted it to serve. Before Wounding Strike buff, it was solely a spike-based character. Warriors can DPS and Spike, as well as limited disruption capabilities via Hammer Warrior or the interrupts available. Dervishes just seem like an after-thought of a melee class, and when the game designers realized that they created the Dervish with only the ability to spike, I think thats when they buffed Wounding Strike.

When I saw the buff to Wounding Strike, without hesitation I said this skill is good now and made a condition build to go with it (it never got ran b/c the players in Hawk Smash were kinda stubborn), because I saw the pressure potential. I did not see it evolving into the current let me buff my Dervish with SoH/Conjure, and have him explode things.

Point being, if the game designers want to change the Dervish, they need to completely revamp their entire skill set (which I doubt will happen), and not just tweak one skill.

Hopefully, they wont make the same mistake with GW2.

Greedy Gus · Jun 26, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Well I disagree that you need to completely revamp the entire skillset. You simply need to power down dumb buttonmash skills, and have something more specific in mind for buffs on just enough skills for people to make a good skillbar (ideally based around interesting, skill-rewarding skills) instead of trying to get lucky by simple power buffs on random skills. What needs a revamp is, as you said, the design vision for the class.

erk · Jun 26, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

That is part of the problem. The game designers seemed to have thought "hmm....lets make anotherm melee class" but they didn't think of what role they wanted it to serve. Before Wounding Strike buff, it was solely a spike-based character. Warriors can DPS and Spike, as well as limited disruption capabilities via Hammer Warrior or the interrupts available. Dervishes just seem like an after-thought of a melee class, and when the game designers realized that they created the Dervish with only the ability to spike, I think thats when they buffed Wounding Strike.

When I saw the buff to Wounding Strike, without hesitation I said this skill is good now and made a condition build to go with it (it never got ran b/c the players in Hawk Smash were kinda stubborn), because I saw the pressure potential. I did not see it evolving into the current let me buff my Dervish with SoH/Conjure, and have him explode things.

Point being, if the game designers want to change the Dervish, they need to completely revamp their entire skill set (which I doubt will happen), and not just tweak one skill.

Hopefully, they wont make the same mistake with GW2.

I think the Dervish was supposed to be about using Avatars, the Wounding Strike fad has made those retire a bit. In HA for example, it wouldn't be so crazy to run and AoM Dervish to act as a "minesweeper" for all those Sway traps, clearing the way for the rest of the team and perhaps taking out the spirits, but instead when Dervish are used you tend to see Wounding Strike'rs running over Dust/Spike/Smoke traps lol. fotm rules.

Akaraxle · Jun 27, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I'd think one of the reasons why people don't run trees anymore, besides WS being op, is that Blind was weakened so much. I mean, even if you've got Weakness you're still gonna land Bleeding + Deep Wound on your target.

makosi · Jun 27, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

It's about time Savage and Distracting Shot take a deserved hit. I realise that nobody would play rangers anymore but that's because they have a lot of drivel skills.

It's like Splinter and Ancestor's Rage, they dev team won't do anything because then rangers wouldn't see any high end play. Is that honestly a good reason to keep troublesome, overpowered skills?

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 27, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

There are far more problems that put d shot and savage to shame. I could see the problems on smaller scale battles though, then again almost everything is 10x more powerful under those scenarios.

lord of shadow · Jun 27, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

It's about time Savage and Distracting Shot take a deserved hit. I realise that nobody would play rangers anymore but that's because they have a lot of drivel skills.

It's like Splinter and Ancestor's Rage, they dev team won't do anything because then rangers wouldn't see any high end play. Is that honestly a good reason to keep troublesome, overpowered skills?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

makosi · Jun 27, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

That's some good thread contribution.

I know that there are worse problems than whack-a-mole rangers at the moment but these interrupts are useful and handy in 8v8 but grossly overpowered in any other scenario. Magebane Shot is an annoying interrupt but it is balanced with its energy cost and its elite status. Every single bow-based ranger build carries Distracting Shot because it's an elite skill without the gold border.

Yeah, bow-wielding rangers would suck without them but that's because they have too few good skills to play with. Screw any skill with an activation time of over 1 second because a ranger can freely camp 'n' spam.

DarkNecrid · Jun 27, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

yeah you are right no one would run rangers if those got nerfed ever, nope, there is absolutely nothing else rangers have, surely they are not really good at splitting for obvious reasons, nope never, that would be crazy.

DreamWind · Jun 27, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

It's about time Savage and Distracting Shot take a deserved hit. I realise that nobody would play rangers anymore but that's because they have a lot of drivel skills.

It's like Splinter and Ancestor's Rage, they dev team won't do anything because then rangers wouldn't see any high end play. Is that honestly a good reason to keep troublesome, overpowered skills?

I think the other guy was right. I disagree when people want nerfs/buffs of skills that existed just fine in past balanced metagames (some ele and monk skills also come to mind).

As for rits, remove them from the game.

Tearz1993 · Jun 27, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

It's about time Savage and Distracting Shot take a deserved hit. I realise that nobody would play rangers anymore but that's because they have a lot of drivel skills.

It's like Splinter and Ancestor's Rage, they dev team won't do anything because then rangers wouldn't see any high end play. Is that honestly a good reason to keep troublesome, overpowered skills?

Overpowered? For Savage Shot, it's like saying Power Drain is overpowered too... If you nerf DShot, you might as well nerf Diversion, WoH, RC, Weapon of Warding, Blurred Vision, Troll Unguent, and Shame since they would get off too much.

Prayer Bicky · Jun 27, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Ghostly hero with no d-shot !!!

jokes, just upset ghostly picks on me alot

definatly a longer recharge on wounding strike.

and imo, no flames please, DEPRAVITY, so annoying, yet i dont know how

Apok Omen · Jun 27, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Let's just hope that they give us the skill update before the next mAT...