Curse

DarkNecrid · Jun 14, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Scythe auto attack is ridiculous....with SoH and Conjures which was the original point anyways. (and/or hitting 3 people at once)

No one ever specified nothing on them, pretty sure!!

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 15, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

what you guys fail to understand is that Isil doesnt disagree with you that "auto attacks are meaningless and nobody cares about them" however his original point of arguement is that you guys say that Scythe's auto attack damage is ridiculous and he proved to you that it isnt.
he wasnt even reffering to the whole skill bar arguement which you guys keep pushing towards...

I'm sure that he agrees with you that the current Wounding Spiker template is overpowered, the problem is that you dont even understand what you're arguing about...

Doubtful he picked apart some vague post and started to flame, if he knew well, why did he bother going down that road? TBH though such arguments shouldn't have been allowed to go on, it contributed nothing at all and the shitty skill balance has arrived, time to close thread. His famous one liners failed to actually address the thesis of anybodies post, and just further showed it was merely trolling. He's also off by around 2 dmg points, pretty sure that's gonna skew his numbers, his point is a rather joke with no merit.

HolyHawk · Jun 15, 2008, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Wounding strike is weird, I think it would be like cleave inflicting deep wound on strike, just like that. Given that you just need energy to spam WS, at least increase the recharge; I don't think the condition order is that important, and if I was to nerf the skill, I would switch to inflict the deep wound if NOT enchanted; that would kinda kill the skill but would prevent conjure/strenght buffs.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 15, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Can you point me to any evidence of that? As far as I can tell that's false.

Spare me, I understand how the damage calculations work.

The higher the weapon attribute the more likely to crit...which obviously results in the higher dmg spectrum to occur more often?....

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 15, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

Wounding strike is weird, I think it would be like cleave inflicting deep wound on strike, just like that.

Last I checked Wounding Strike didn't deal +30 damage..

pah01 · Jun 15, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

last I checked Axes didnt crit for 86.

Your skillbar determines your playstyle.

If you were to make cleave 2 adrenaline and inflict deep wound and bleeding with its damage modified to [being absolutely fair] (86-59) =+27 damage. Then make agonising chop 2 adren as well and buff its damage to say (86-59) +27 as well then your spike as an axe warrior would compare with wounding strike + say eremites or mystic.

Under frenzy agonizing might be a little faster than eremites but not by much.

Would this warrior play ANY differently to the dervish guy???

I would bet not in the slightest. So if your opinion is that cleave inflicting bleeding and deep wound would be broken then a little number crunching would show that the wounding strike guy is broken too.

Joe

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 15, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Would this warrior play ANY differently to the dervish guy???

Yes, have you ever even played a dervish? Or warrior at high level?

Scythes attack quite a bit slower, Dervishes are much more fragile and dont have nearly as accessible an IAS as warriors.

Play the game before you start spouting random bullshit, the problem with dervishes isn't Wounding Strike or high Crits, it's conjure+soh stacking, free/maintainable speedboost and DW being covered by bleeding.

Hyper Cutter · Jun 15, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyHawk

Wounding strike is weird, I think it would be like cleave inflicting deep wound on strike, just like that

It's more like if [Dismember] also caused bleeding...

Master Fuhon · Jun 15, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I don't think I can agree with anything drastic because Dervishes are meant to make warriors obselete in some builds. Anything overpowered could be phased out over several patches to not risk the class becoming unplayable in high-end pvp. That's why I would excuse them being able to put out better dps with less thought involved. Warriors can be able to extend more into the backline than a dervish (or provide disruption), they just have to be smart about using skills. But I do have a problem with something like a character with a two hander being able to chase things with a block stance up. Because it's completely mindless to have both higher defense and offense at the same time. There needs to be some way for an opponent to drive this enemy back. I was glad to see water eles become a strong counter to melee; but I'm afraid that most defensive stuff just gets nerfed eventually to produce more killing. A few changes on one dimensional skills is the way to go, providing counters for dervish overload. (The new Rust is not entirely useless if brought to counter the old gimmicks. Curses line of skills could show more life any moment).

Passive capabilities are problematic, although they are a reason why some people pick one class over another. Warriors and Paragons have high armor and free shields, and Dervishes have multi-strike. At some point passive abilites are going to cement a class as being the best possible choice for a role, in the same way people complain about the imbalance of primary attributes like soul reaping, divine favor, and expertise. Splinter Weapon/Ancestor's Rage are two skills keeping warriors competitive with roles the dervish could dominate, and at least another class needs to take them (it's also good to see the damage values of these continually adjusted). It's not like people are going to worry about Necros using axe attacks, ripping enchants, and life stealing touch skills to pressure. But if you allow one class to hit one button and a second later have deep wound on multiple targets, this is one of the most powerful things I can think of. It's harder to try to do this with Fevered Dreams or Epidemic. I think capabilities need to be closer to the realm of skill use only (even if you put it on most of the class skills). There's no reasonable way to quantify anything other than "really bad" or "seems too good", and you get class unfairness problems like every other MMO (at least rerolling is easy in GW).

Another problem I have is whenever melee enhancing skills creep in (orders, strength of honor, conjures), people are going to take more mindless dps, because these types get the most out of the skills. Maybe mathematically, daggers benefit more from these, but it takes too much thought to try to get that to work. I would have to go the way of everyone else and make these types non-stacking. I'm fine with almost 100% uptime of a single melee buffing skill, because otherwise these would be useless. Opening up the possibilty of running 'melee with conjures' OR 'smite sig mesmer running SoH' OR 'orders necro' OR 'some ritualist build I don't know of yet'. So yea, nerf stacking, buff the individual skills until they become more interchangeable.

And my last point would be about condition order. Someone explained about how deep wound had always been exposed on top (with warrior skills) and it took teamwork to cover it. I think that only a really fragile class should be able to bury it's own deep wound quickly (sort of like assassins, who would need to execute a combo first). Not to be able to spam buried deep wound on everyone with low recharge. Maybe buried deep wound is just an attempt to get people to play foul feast necro (or other obscure condition removal skills on non-monks), but it seems to be forcing restore conditions instead. And at the very least it had encouraged many others to run cookie cutter because someone else has already thought about this (sig of humility).

I pretty much agree with the ideas proposed many times before, but I just wrote it in more words and gave my full reasoning.

Tyla · Jun 16, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Don't forget they are constantly (Until removed, anyway) enchanted with Conjure X and Strength of Honour in Dervsmite. With Heart of Fury on a 50% upkeep, and 100% if you switch to a stave and get the 20% HRT.

If using Faithful Intervention, that's another enchantment that's up permanently until it ends.

Riotgear · Jun 17, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Couple things:

First, the minor overall DPS difference between hammers and scythes are about as low on the list of things people give a shit about as it gets. There is a reason people are running Dervishes right now, and it is not because they autoattack for more damage than a W/E with a hammer. Please stop arguing about it unless you are going to argue about it in context.

Second, quit with the flames and slap-fights.

Third, if you have nothing to add to the discussion, then the correct button to press is Back, not Quote, not Post Reply.

Thanks!

shoogi · Jun 17, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

And lets not forget that Dervishes don't get pwned by certain skills ([aura of stability], [balthazar's pendulum]), as opposed to hammer wars that rely on KDs.

Problem. · Jun 17, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

No.. that's 100 damage the first time, then the DW after that are to keep that 100 damage there, it does not add 100 damage each time you use it. So, speaking of theory and reality - If that were true, 6 WS hits would kill a target with 600 HP.

I'd like to know how anything I've said was fallacy? Plz explain. I back what I say up with experience at playing the game.

You're quote, clearly demonstrates thats you think a Dervish will only be attacking one target.

Let me explain something to you, it might be hard for you to grasp at first, because your calculator doesn't tell you, but theres this button you can press on your keyboard, when playing a melee character (TAB), and then (SPACE), and you will switch who you are attacking. You want to know what else happens? I'll tell you. You use Wounding Strike on that person as well, followed by your many other attack skills.

Also, who uses Wounding Strike on a player that still has DW on it?

[build name"Isil Zha" smi=12 wat=7][Strength of Honor][Conjure Frost][/build] 12+13 = 25 Right? How was I fallacious?

This is just me ripping apart you argument, b/c you like to take things out of context.

(You have to assume that the Dervish and Hammer Warrior are bringing IAS' and movement speed buff otherwise they will just get kited all day like those people in RA that are terrible)
Now, even without Strength of Honor/Conjure, a Dervish will score more Crits than a Hammer Warrior because the Dervish doesn't have the luxury of knockdowns.

The fact remains that Dervishes score kills through critting and their various dmg-compression skills, while hammers score kills through KD's, where their crit-ratio will the lowest (while attacking).

How can you say a Dervish wont crit more if they are going to be hitting moving targets the entire game? Do you understand the concept of auto-crits? Lemme explain that one to you.

If you hit a kitting player, in the back (fleeing is the term used), it is an auto-matic critical hit. When you are a good front-liner, you use this to your advantage by trying to make use of +dmg skills where you can achieve critical hits.

I looked at your calculator. Saw it didn't take into account IAS when calulating DPS, and said this guy didn't even think.

Hey, maybe if you update your calculator, with a bunch of features that inlcude what happens in reality, we can all forget what you've caused here, and you can gain some of your credibility back.

All you do is refer to you calculator, when as everyone in the thread as already explain to you, reality differs. If you want back up of the things more experienced players are saying, open Guild Wars, play a GvG or Press B, and obs top players. Plz stop the non-sense already.

DarkNecrid · Jun 17, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Trivial semantics, especially since I'm not the one that made the original claim.

um...what?

How about you follow the conversation, like the part where someone brought up this topic being about skills, you said no it was about balance, and then I pointed out its about skill balance. ok thanks.

Quote:

False! You dishonest shit. And I dare you to prove otherwise.

Uh, well you gave numbers for attacking a stationary target, because it is completely impossible to give numbers for a moving target & the crits they will give, and you also only factored in 1 target because it is near impossible to hit 3 targets all the time.

Basically your entire "data" relies on stationary, unmoving targets, simply because if they were moving, you'd be getting more crits/hitting more targets, which would simply throw your entire data off.

You keep talking about theory and data, yet your data is redundant since it only applies to a very limited and unrealistic encounter. If you show me a (not rigged) fight where a Dervish is auto attacking a not moving (to not get super high scythe crits constantly) target and not using any skills and only attacking 1 target, and doesn't have any enchantments such as Conjure or SoH on him, I will pay you a thousand dollars. Basically your post isn't doing anything, since in a real fight Scythe auto attack damage is much much higher than a hammers, and this is why they are broken.

If you aren't going to discuss things on a realistic standpoint, why are you even posting in a skill balance thread. Just to toot your horn and stick it to some guy who said something based in realism? OH NO YOU'RE WRONG THEY ARE EQUAL IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD WHERE NO ONE MOVES OR USES SKILLS EVER?

At this point I'd just like to see humsig get fixed, because honestly nerfing Mantra did nothing, people just took another mesmer WOOOOO. Fix Scythes and Humsig izzy plz. ;-;.

IDK what you could really do about humsig though. It's mostly used just because of everything else being awesome (hellot dervs) but it seems subtly overpowered on its own too. I guess maybe I don't like it because its very much a "Fire & Forget" skill.

Maybe lower the duration or something. Dervishes need to be hit hard though god WS rapes

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 17, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I really dont see the point of addressing this guy anymore. Close thread and delete the last 4 pages.

Master Fuhon · Jun 17, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

No.. that's 100 damage the first time, then the DW after that are to keep that 100 damage there, it does not add 100 damage each time you use it. So, speaking of theory and reality - If that were true, 6 WS hits would kill a target with 600 HP.

Funny you should say theory 'and reality' this time, because in the real version of reality (pvp), 6 WS hits on the same target would cause someone to get healed so no one would bring it up. No wonder this keeps going in circles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

This... is just plain factually wrong. Maintaining the DW maintains the original 100 damage. Additional hits result in +20 damage. Your math is terrible. Using your "logic," 3 WS hits would result in 360 damage, leaving a 600 HP target with 240 HP. Of course, in reality it will be 440 HP.

The target probably has prots all over it to whittle your auto attack numbers to 0 since the strategy is to mash Wounding Strike to maintain a deep wound. Why would a discussion on game balance employ strategies that wouldn't be seen in any part of the game. The problem with the Dervish seems to be that it is balanced around people who do not know how to use skills properly. There are pleny of skills in this game that need to be buffed if you intend to just spam them consecutively on a single target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

It matters because the over-all non-crit average for the Hammer will be higher.

I would like to know more about the new stoneflesh aura meta that makes this fact relevant. It's not like it even makes sense as a baseline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Oh, so you also respond to my statements with completely off-topic points and then bitch at me for ignoring you? Your vagueness is also your own fault.

Ignoring things I said and then trying to argue about what I said isn't helping this to go anywhere. However, at this point the teaching lessons about arguments are not being ignored, they just don't have any relevance to the topic (game balance) or to reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec

-[oMaN]I really dont see the point of addressing this guy anymore. Close thread and delete the last 4 pages..

I fear for the rest of the internet when he finds his way out of this thread. I'm pretty sure I can find something else to do somewhere...

Problem. · Jun 17, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

What I'm hoping is that that wasn't the last balance for the month...

SoH/Conjure stacking is still a big issue, as it turn less than abysmal front-liners, into people that can actually kill things.

It has also resulted into the meta stagnating yet again as well as removed viability of skills (B-Surge).

I'm really hoping the current state-of-affairs is being looked at, because it has come to a point where the game is becoming less and less fun. Even after eveyrone started quitting, the game was still fun. Now, the game is slowly deteriorating in leisure/competitive appeal.

I had hoped that the PvP/PvE Skill seperation would expedite skill balances, and make them more frequent, but it hasn't lived up to those expectations. My only hope is that it will shortly....

DarkNecrid · Jun 17, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I'm pretty much giving the game a couple more months, and if it doesn't improve then just forget it honestly. I've probably given it a few too many months honestly, but the sad thing is is that even now this is still better than any MMO out there in competitive arena styled PvP, but its still bad and I'm just tired of holding out on boredom, getting title crap, just clinging for some good skill balance. I'll probably still play here and then but there's no real point in caring if they aren't going to care either.

I wish Izzy would just go "IM GONNA RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO THE META UP" and spend a good, long hard month, just staring at the game, talking to players, getting feedback on a test server, and push the largest skill balance this game has ever seen onto the game.

Winstar · Jun 17, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I'm pretty much giving the game a couple more months, and if it doesn't improve then just forget it honestly. I've probably given it a few too many months honestly, but the sad thing is is that even now this is still better than any MMO out there in competitive arena styled PvP, but its still bad and I'm just tired of holding out on boredom, getting title crap, just clinging for some good skill balance. I'll probably still play here and then but there's no real point in caring if they aren't going to care either.

I wish Izzy would just go "IM GONNA RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO THE META UP" and spend a good, long hard month, just staring at the game, talking to players, getting feedback on a test server, and push the largest skill balance this game has ever seen onto the game.

Honestly, if you're not happy with game balance and general knowledge of the game by its balancers in GW then you aren't going to be happier with competitive PvP game balance anywhere else. If you're bored with the game thats another question - then go play something else. That is a good reason to go. GW has been out for 3 years +. But in terms of balancing and knowledge of the game by its balancers this game is a gem - despite the wrong turns it has made.

DarkNecrid · Jun 17, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Honestly, if you're not happy with game balance and general knowledge of the game by its balancers in GW then you aren't going to be happier with competitive PvP game balance anywhere else. If you're bored with the game thats another question - then go play something else. That is a good reason to go. GW has been out for 3 years +. But in terms of balancing and knowledge of the game by its balancers this game is a gem - despite the wrong turns it has made.

Ya, it's a gem made out of crap, but at least it's a gem, right?

Honestly, all Izzy has to do is accept the meta is shit and completely push a huge skill balance for once. Rework a ton of shit, buff a lot of shit that should be buffed, nerf all the stupid gimmicky shit (HELLOSHADOWSTEPS) and fix the power creep (hellot WoH). Shake things up.

The length of these skill balances and the detail in them is so minute. Jesus dude, I think one of the WoW classes had a "balance" (I use that word, very very lightly) update that was bigger than the entire skill balance last week. This few skills a month crap is dumb and isn't working. Like I said, I'd still play probably (nothing better to play), but I'd stop caring (almost there now, since I doubt so much izzy will even bother.)

I'm probably going to attach a well thought out thing to his wiki in discussion, and maybe link it here and maybe get support.