Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 09, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The derv is huge pressure by itself, and sig humming the RC effectively kills the monk's ability to clean it up. Plus, the Mes has SoJ, which means he can simply stomp any monk throwing up Aegis.

Holding on to SoJ to interrupt Aegis is retarded.

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Some of you are saying sig hum is fine by itself. Look at the skill - non elite, no energy, no drawback disabling an elite?

2-2.5s activation, 20r, hum sig is fine without mantra, nerf mantra of inscriptions significantly (something like 10..30 duration, 20r, 15..40% faster recharge) and make mantra not apply when a signet gets interrupted (it currently does, probably a bug though).

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Doesn't anyone remember Keystone mesmers, which could simply elite lock the LoD and roll teams?

Yeah, how is that relevant to hum sig though? that was a combination of keystone signet and mantra of inscriptions breaking the bar, now it's mainly just mantra of inscriptions.

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The mesmer and the derv need to be worked on hard.

The Derv is fine, it's SoH/Conjure stacking that's the biggest problem there. Fix that and make DW cover Bleeding from WS and call it a day.

Snow Bunny · Jun 09, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Holding on to SoJ to interrupt Aegis is retarded.

It's not my fault I see it happen on obs frequently.

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2-2.5s activation, 20r, hum sig is fine without mantra, nerf mantra of inscriptions significantly (something like 10..30 duration, 20r, 15..40% faster recharge) and make mantra not apply when a signet gets interrupted (it currently does, probably a bug though).

I agree with you that MoI needs to be nerfed, but you must agree that Sig of Humility in its current form with MoI is slightly retarded. What it allows the derv to do is my issue here.

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Yeah, how is that relevant to hum sig though? that was a combination of keystone signet and mantra of inscriptions breaking the bar, now it's mainly just mantra of inscriptions.

It's a slight comparison - RC is the elite necessary to clean up the Dervish. By elite locking the RC, the Dervish throws around tremendous pressure. I understand that Keystone on LoD was much more of an issue, but it's functioning in the same manner. Once RC is disabled, teams just crumble under AoE DW.

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The Derv is fine, it's SoH/Conjure stacking that's the biggest problem there. Fix that and make DW cover Bleeding from WS and call it a day.

Don't forget MoI. Also - maybe a slighty tweak on WS recharge. 5 seconds isn't too debilitating there.

ChillOutDude · Jun 09, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

kill SoM ...lot's of casters start to use that overpowerd skill

eximiis · Jun 09, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Holding on to SoJ to interrupt Aegis is retarded.

With the usual 2 Derv, 1 shock/war, 2 Sig Mesmer, 1 Rit/runner, 2 monks.

How do you interrupt Aegis ?

you remove it with mirror ? or u throw in a SoJ ?

Riotgear · Jun 09, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

With the usual 2 Derv, 1 shock/war, 2 Sig Mesmer, 1 Rit/runner, 2 monks.

How do you interrupt Aegis ?

you remove it with mirror ? or u throw in a SoJ ?

Leech Signet, Signet of Distraction, Mirror it, or if all else fails, SoJ it.

C2K · Jun 09, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

With the usual 2 Derv, 1 shock/war, 2 Sig Mesmer, 1 Rit/runner, 2 monks.

How do you interrupt Aegis ?

you remove it with mirror ? or u throw in a SoJ ?

Thats why they run Mirror

Div · Jun 10, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

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Originally Posted by Skyros

maybe cause i personally don't want to see the sig mesmer to die. Its pretty neat idea and is something new (or reborn) in the current GvG / ha metas which have been pretty static for mesmer bars (e-surge + diversion + shame for GvG and PD/Power Block/Migrane mesmer in HA)

The signet mesmer was perfectly fine back when pT ran it. Powerful but not imbalanced. Now it's just retarded.

Riotgear · Jun 10, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

The signet mesmer was perfectly fine back when pT ran it. Powerful but not imbalanced. Now it's just retarded.

Right, which is why I don't think it's a huge problem. Problem is more that Humility + SoH is the perfect complement to Wounding Strike.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 10, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Right, which is why I don't think it's a huge problem. Problem is more that Humility + SoH is the perfect complement to Wounding Strike.

It's a combination of lots of things;
aoe normal dmg from the scythes
aoe deep wounds+bleeding
high max dmg on scythes
SOH+conjures
Sig hum
No one running a midline that needs the elite shutdown
Lack of D

It was pretty neat back when we ran it, even when conjures were triggering dmg under prots

But back then it didn't seem like much of a problem because warriors were used having to build the adren to unload dmg instead of 3 second pewpew like now. Almost everyone was running a para, or a ranger or both, B surge wasn't nerfed, Lod was around, D anthem, ward against melee wasn't nerfed, aegis, glyph, there were many more layers of defense back then compared to now, big factor there, the build was successful back then, albit with alot more effort, right now it's just cookie cutter.
Slowly over the balances all this defense has been nerfed and various dmg sources increased, really looking forward to the next balance as it will probably just force another extreme.

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

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Originally Posted by Cass

As I argued before, the Signet of Humility is fine by itself. It is the synergy with monk signets via Mantra of Inscriptions that needs looking at. Mantra working only on mesmer signets, perhaps.
On its own, as it saw play in condition pressure builds, it is a good skill, but not overpowered.

First, it's not elite, but it's going to cost you 2 skill slots as you will want Mantra pretty badly to make proper use of the signet. Second, it has a very long casting time already, with no FC bonus chance and is thus prone to d-shots (and you can't use Distortion with Mantra, so blocking it is not trivial).

You don't at all need Mantra Inscriptions to make proper use of Sig Hum. There are hex builds and spike builds that can use it perfectly fine without Inscriptions to create the windows of opportunity where the opposing team is screwed. Sig Hum is too powerful by itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Signet of Distraction

Again, you're going for the wrong target here. This signet is only superpowered with numerous signets on your bar: When you can use non-mesmer ones with mantra. Without that condition, it's a very mediocre skill already. A bar with just mesmer signets plus Signet of Distraction would not result in a viable bar IMO.

Hmm, you're basically trying to kill the Signet Mesmer and I disagree with that. It's just the caster shutdown aspect of the character that is too strong. SoJ is really versatile, I like that part of the build.

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Originally Posted by Cass

If you like all the options in the meta so much, then why would you run a straight 8v8 dual derv/dual mes build on Burning Isle? ...

Huh?

~Z

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 10, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You don't at all need Mantra Inscriptions to make proper use of Sig Hum. There are hex builds and spike builds that can use it perfectly fine without Inscriptions to create the windows of opportunity where the opposing team is screwed. Sig Hum is too powerful by itself.

Hum sig isn't really going to help a spike build by creating a window of opportunity, unless perhaps they for some odd reason run a bsurge ele.

Hum sig in hex builds isn't gonna create a window of opportunity either, just speeds up the rate at which monks run out of energy.

Hum Sig is fine by itself, it's plenty counterable and generally not a big deal if it's up 11-13 out of 22 seconds.

Zuranthium · Jun 10, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Hum sig isn't really going to help a spike build by creating a window of opportunity, unless perhaps they for some odd reason run a bsurge ele

Shadow Shroud spikes.

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Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Hum sig in hex builds isn't gonna create a window of opportunity either, just speeds up the rate at which monks run out of energy.

Erm, exactly. The monks not having Elites to counter pressure efficiently enough is the window of opportunity which causes the team to crack. The cost of using Sig Hum and the effect it creates is disproportionate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Hum Sig is fine by itself, it's plenty counterable and generally not a big deal if it's up 11-13 out of 22 seconds.

Not plenty counterable in comparison to Diversion/Shame which are (A.) hexes that can be removed, and (B). can be interrupted by spell-interrupts

~Z

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 10, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shadow Shroud spikes.

How exactly is hum sig gonna help there? Besides, no one runs Shadow Shroud...

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Erm, exactly. The monks not having Elites to counter pressure efficiently enough is the window of opportunity which causes the team to crack. The cost of using Sig Hum and the effect it creates is disproportionate.

It's not a window of opportunity, you just create a situation where monks don't have elites and will have to use more energy generally, this will speed up the time it takes to run monks dry, but a humility getting off on a monk elite really doesnt mean you get to push for 10-15 seconds and then your efforts are wasted if you don't score any kills.

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Not plenty counterable in comparison to Diversion/Shame which are (A.) hexes that can be removed, and (B). can be interrupted by spell-interrupts

Diversion and Shame aren't even remotely comparable to Sig Hum...

Zuranthium · Jun 11, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

How exactly is hum sig gonna help there? Besides, no one runs Shadow Shroud...

Don't base your assumptions just on what people are running at this exact moment.

The Sig Hums in such a build keep WoH + RC down. Since Shadow Shroud nullifies enchantments, the only possibility for stoping spikes becomes Infuse, and you won't be getting many of those off between the Diversions and Shames (and Infuse doesn't self target, so, oops that character is dead anyway if the spike goes there).

Current shutdown duration of Sig Hum would allow for the spike skills to be recharged for a second go whilst the Elite is still disabled. People haven't run such an A/D spike yet but this isn't the sole Sig Hum problem situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It's not a window of opportunity

Semantics. Why do you disagree for the sake of it.

From what I've experienced in hex builds, and even watching how [Me] uses Sig Hum in their split, I feel the skill is overpowered by itself without Mantra.

Elites have become so critical since Nightfall. Sig Hum in turn has morphed into a beast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Diversion and Shame aren't even remotely comparable to Sig Hum...

Yes they are. These are all shut-down abilities.

~Z

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 11, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Don't base your assumptions just on what people are running at this exact moment.

Don't make up ridiculous scenarios that are never gonna happen.

Would Shadow Shroud actaully become meta, I'm sure people would spec for it with Cure Hex, Gift Of Health, etc.

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Semantics. Why do you disagree for the sake of it.

I disagee with you because you're wrong, Hum Sig can create a window of opportunity if you'd use it on say Blinding Surge, not on WoH or RC.

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From what I've experienced in hex builds, and even watching how [Me] uses Sig Hum in their split, I feel the skill is overpowered by itself without Mantra.

Mistral Edge doesn't win because they shut down a monk elite for a few seconds, they win because they kill NPCs.

Generic hex builds use humility to actually be able to pressure, if every targets that gets below 50% is just gonna get worded up they can never kill anything, hex build generally have very little direct damage so getting targets low is a must to score kills.

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Elites have become so critical since Nightfall. Sig Hum in turn has morphed into a beast.

Elites have become critical, on monk bars at least, getting an elite shut down for a maximum of 13 out of every 22 seconds (it'll likely be a lot less because of having to fake it, having to get into position or getting interrupted) however is really not a big deal.

When you can pretty much chain humility on an elite and have your hum sig back in 11 seconds even if you do get interrupted it starts becoming broken.

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Yes they are. These are all shut-down abilities.

Shame and Diversion are common spike assists as they force monks to give up energy or a skill to save the spike target, humility cant do this because a monk can function fine for a short period of time without his elite.

Diverting a skill can create a window of opportunity, as it means the skill is gone for a minute, losing WoH for a minute can easily cause a wipe, losing WoH for 11-13 seconds, not so much.

Mantra is the problem, not Humility.

Stop arguing, you are wrong.

Greedy Gus · Jun 11, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Elites have become so critical since Nightfall. Sig Hum in turn has morphed into a beast.

Which is what it should do--it's a catch-all in place to keep superpower elites in check. It's pretty obvious that MoI is the more important issue, just like all skills that affect recharge have been problems.

darkdreamr · Jun 11, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I can see them nerfing Mantra to 15e, shorter duration or effect. Which is pretty much overkill considering that signets have relatively weak effects and long recharges anyway. They might nerf humility but imo it's working fine. People depend too much on RC. It's already given rise to foul feast necros, but there are other ways to deal with condis.

What I think they should do is
1) SoH and Conjure shouldn't stack
2) currently MoI reduces recharge time even of the disable from Complicate or Diversion or Dshot. That should be fixed.
3) they should buff anti-signet skills to be effective. Shorter recharge on primal echoes, lower cost on Ignorance, lower recharge on Complicate, stuff like that.

And thusly balance will be restored. But I get the feeling Izzy's going to run the dervs and sig messes completely out of meta, which is unfortunate. I hope I'm wrong.

DarkNecrid · Jun 11, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

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And thusly balance will be restored.

Nope pretty sure there's a ton of issues besides those. Plus your #3 is completely dumb.

LEZ MAKE IT MORE BUIL DWARS KEKEKE

Problem. · Jun 11, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

I can see them nerfing Mantra to 15e, shorter duration or effect. Which is pretty much overkill considering that signets have relatively weak effects and long recharges anyway. They might nerf humility but imo it's working fine. People depend too much on RC. It's already given rise to foul feast necros, but there are other ways to deal with condis.

What I think they should do is
1) SoH and Conjure shouldn't stack
2) currently MoI reduces recharge time even of the disable from Complicate or Diversion or Dshot. That should be fixed.
3) they should buff anti-signet skills to be effective. Shorter recharge on primal echoes, lower cost on Ignorance, lower recharge on Complicate, stuff like that.

And thusly balance will be restored. But I get the feeling Izzy's going to run the dervs and sig messes completely out of meta, which is unfortunate. I hope I'm wrong.

A 15 energy Mantra of Inscriptions wont do a thing. I tend to favor a duration (uptime) nerf in combination with a slight nerf to its effect. This will make its use more energy intensive, because in order to keep it up, you would have to activate the skill more, thereby putting pressure on hte amount of bonds (SoH/Holy Wraths) the character can handle. The effect nerf will also prevent 24/7 Humility Lock, but I would also like to see a slight duration nerf to Humility, as well as the aforementioned fixes to the skill when it gets interrupted.

Your comment on dependence of RC....The use of RC was propagated by the overall increase of conditions in the metagame, attributed to the introductions of the Paragon/Dervish, as well as Burning Arrow/Crippling Shot Rangers and Blinding Surge Elementalists, in combination with the decreasing popularity of Draw Conditions/Extinguish. Simply put, there are too many conditions in the metagame to be handled by two, single removals.

And your point 3 falls victim to not understanding how to balance. You don't fix a problem, by buffing its counters, and then calling it balanced. Then, all you do is result in a game where you are forced to bring counters still, to the same broken problem. Ok, so say that happens, and everyone runs anti-signet skills, the signet skills then fall out of the meta, and as a result, everyone drops the anti-signet skills. When everyone drops the anit-signet skills, people bring back the still broken, signet skills.

Like I've been preaching for a while, get to the root of the problem.
Fix SoH/Conjure Stacking
Fix Mantra of Inscriptions
Fix VoD/Come up with a New End Game Plan

Notice Wounding Strike isn't there because, I'd like to see how it would play out without these "hyper-buffing" skills stacking. I do however feel it could take a slight recharge nerf and the order of conditions switched.

What I'd love more than anything, is to see Guild Wars, where everything is viable (or at least most of everything), and where no playstyle is discriminated, yet still balanced. Guess thats why its a dream.

Lordhelmos · Jun 11, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Change signet of humility into a spell just called humility. No more mantra synergy and no more cancel casting abuse.

X: Humilty: Cast 3, Recharge 20, Cost 10. Spell. For X seconds, target foe's elite skill is disabled.

Stacking Strength of Honor and Conjures needs to go. Strength of Honor should end when a target ally inflicts elemental damage.

X: Strength of Honor: Target ally deals +X damage in melee. Ends if target ally deals elemental damage. (meaning chaos damage, shadow damage, holy damage, and physical damage are still viable, thus maintaining synergy with judge's insight).

Escape should end if a player surpasses a certain number of attacks that scales with expertise to help kill Sway:

X: Escape: Functionality changed so that the skill ends after X attack skills, depending on the player's rank in expertise.

Nerf the recharge of Dancing Daggers to 8 seconds.

Nerf the recharge of Barbs to 10 seconds.

Nerf the recharge of Wounding Strike to 5 seconds. It's still overpowered, but dervish need a powerful skill like this to content with warriors, a slap on the wrist is good enough.

Change the functionality of Nature's Renewal so that the double cast time of Hexes and Enchantments scales with Wilderness Survival.

X: Creates a level 1...8 spirit (30...126 second lifespan). For creatures in range, enchantments and Hexes take 50-100% as long to cast and it takes twice as much Energy to maintain enchantments. Does not affect spirits.

This way players are faced with a rougher attribute split to maintain the effectiveness of NR.

~~~

I think that the above skill balances I'm proposing aren't too bad, and will help to balance the meta. Humility Sig really is the huge problem in signet mesmer builds, and I think that converting it into a spell in order to kill the cancel casting abuse and instant elite locks on RC monks for GvG will go a long way towards bringing domination mesmers back into the meta while still allowing signet mesmers to be playable.

Strength of Honor stacked on conjures creates a retardedly overpowered pain train, I think that making Strength end when an ally deals elemental damage will balance the skill and provoke more people into bringing judge's insight as a synergy skill over conjures.

My proposed changes to Sway will keep escape rangers from abusing scythe and spear attacks by limiting the number of attack skills they can use before their stance ends, thus preventing them from being impervious to melee while battle-lioning the other team in a pressure roll. The nerf to barbs is fair and obvious for hitting the DPS of Sway. Also scaling the hex and enchant lengthening duration from NR to wilderness survival will also be a big hit to Sway. These changes will still make the build playable, yet much more difficult to run.

Dancing Daggers its a pretty high damage skill, dealing over 99 dmg every 5 seconds. Hitting the recharge to 8 would still make it usable and would make assacasters more balanced.

And Wounding Strike is godly overpowered, I think a slight nerf to the recharge would make it more manageable. I think dervishes need this skill, and I would hate to see it suck.