Curse

C2K · Jun 03, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Regarding Wounding Strike, if they reverted it to its original function, it wouldn't be bad. That is "apply Deep Wound if you have an enchantment, apply bleeding if you don't".

Problem. · Jun 03, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

You can also just kill MoI and buff individual signets to make signets viable on their own. Skills like MoI always give balance problems. Either they are viable and make other skills too strong (which is why Diversion and Shame got a nerf once because of MoR) or they are too bad to be used. I prefer the last option.

If you kill MoI, and buff signets, dont you just have "MoI-buffed signets" (assuming you talking about recharge, cause most signets have a terrible recharge w/o MoI) without the MoI? And doesn't that leave a free skill slot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Regarding Wounding Strike, if they reverted it to its original function, it wouldn't be bad. That is "apply Deep Wound if you have an enchantment, apply bleeding if you don't".

I like the new functionality of Wounding Strike, it allows dervishes to pressure instead of be completely spike-based. When the skill was buffed, I immediately thought condi-build. But the recent skill changes have changed the direction of the skill to be a "haha-i deep wound every 3 seconds and hit for 100 damage" skill, and its still a spike skill.

street peddler · Jun 03, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

just up the recharge on wounding strike or reverse the condition order

zling · Jun 03, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

if Wounding Strike will remain at 8 sec recharge it's really become a pointless elitel Imho...
Reaper's would be so much better... unconditional deep wound, think Disember compared to easily met conditional deep wound +massive damage, think Eviscerate on steroids...

Tyla · Jun 03, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

I believe people would go back to AoM Dervs.

Mind you, even at 8 seconds, I would say it's still quite a strong elite.

Snow Bunny · Jun 03, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

if Wounding Strike will remain at 8 sec recharge it's really become a pointless elitel Imho...
Reaper's would be so much better... unconditional deep wound, think Disember compared to easily met conditional deep wound +massive damage, think Eviscerate on steroids...

Hi.

We're talking about Scythes.
Scythes do shitRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOton damage. You're autoattacking for 80's, 90's. Axes wish they could do that.

At 8 seconds, the elite is still quite good. On-demand deep-wound is very, very powerful.

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 03, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

If you kill MoI, and buff signets, dont you just have "MoI-buffed signets" (assuming you talking about recharge, cause most signets have a terrible recharge w/o MoI) without the MoI? And doesn't that leave a free skill slot?

Here's what he means: signet skills can never be viable on their own because they have to be balanced with a MoI bar in mind.

Same as how Deadly Paradox broke a bunch of Deadly Arts skills
Same as how Mantra of Persistence broke a bunch of Illusion hexes
Same as how Mantra of Recovery broke a bunch of domination skills

Hmmm I'm sensing a pattern here. Maybe across the board recharge/duration skills aren't such a great idea. Even EW had to be killed.

And to answer your question, no killing MoI and buffing some signets won't lead to the same bar for two reasons: Sig of Humility won't be buffed. SoH will be (hopefully) fixed. The rest of the skills ok but not great.

zling · Jun 03, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Hi.

We're talking about Scythes.
Scythes do shitRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOton damage. You're autoattacking for 80's, 90's. Axes wish they could do that.

At 8 seconds, the elite is still quite good. On-demand deep-wound is very, very powerful.

autoattacking for 80s and 90s? what?
we're not talking about A/D Crit Scythers here are we?
autoattacking+conjure/SoH(?) is a lot less than that, and also has a huge range difference...
and remember that axes swing a lot faster than scythes and warriors have constant IAS while dervs have heart of fury which cant be kept up all the time.
also with 8 second recharge its not really "on demand" any longer...

and you also ignore the fact that scythe is a 2 handed weapon, which means no shield available. and also that dervish has 70 armor compared to warrior's 80 and +20 vs physical

RotteN · Jun 03, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

wounding strike to 6 second recharge and the conditions applied stack in the correct order (that is, first bleeding, and then deep wound).

As for the signet mesmers, slight debuff to MoI wouldn't hurt at all.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

autoattacking for 80s and 90s? what?
we're not talking about A/D Crit Scythers here are we?
autoattacking+conjure/SoH(?) is a lot less than that, and also has a huge range difference...
and remember that axes swing a lot faster than scythes and warriors have constant IAS while dervs have heart of fury which cant be kept up all the time.
also with 8 second recharge its not really "on demand" any longer...

and you also ignore the fact that scythe is a 2 handed weapon, which means no shield available. and also that dervish has 70 armor compared to warrior's 80 and +20 vs physical

The current dervs crit far less often than Sin dervs, but min dmg is way higher and when they do crit it's about 14-15 dmg higher.

Warriors? currently no one is using warriors, because they rape on monks energy having to be prot spirited 24/7 and take a ton more dmg from signet of rage, oh and they have to build adren. Why run a warrior when you don't have to worry about using frenzy, when you take less dmg from sig rage, when you don't have to build 8 adren for a deep wound, when you can crit for much higher dmg, oh thats right you run a wounding dervish instead...

Also note everyone is running around with elemental melee dmg, these dervs are running around with +20 armor from windwalker armor anyways...

Problem. · Jun 03, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Here's what he means: signet skills can never be viable on their own because they have to be balanced with a MoI bar in mind.

Same as how Deadly Paradox broke a bunch of Deadly Arts skills
Same as how Mantra of Persistence broke a bunch of Illusion hexes
Same as how Mantra of Recovery broke a bunch of domination skills

Hmmm I'm sensing a pattern here. Maybe across the board recharge/duration skills aren't such a great idea. Even EW had to be killed.

And to answer your question, no killing MoI and buffing some signets won't lead to the same bar for two reasons: Sig of Humility won't be buffed. SoH will be (hopefully) fixed. The rest of the skills ok but not great.

I understand full well what he means. I said myself that MoI is the problem that fuels the broken signet bars (i.e Keystone Signet build)....What I did say, which you prolly didn't understand, because I didn't say it directly, was that it depends what you buff, and how you buff.

erk · Jun 03, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirath Eldrahir

Boost Draw Conditions to make it as strong as foul feast, theres no reason one should be better than the other.

When you factor in the Divine favor bonus that Monks get, there becomes little difference between the two as a primary skill. As a secondary skill Draw completely pwns Foul Feast.

Lorekeeper · Jun 03, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

When you factor in the Divine favor bonus that Monks get, there becomes little difference between the two as a primary skill. As a secondary skill Draw completely pwns Foul Feast.

The strength of foul feast on necros is that at high levels of soul reaping it can have a net cost of only 1 energy if you remove 2 conditions with it. Id much prefer a ''draw'' that can potentially cost 1e than a draw that always costs 5e. Draw 3 conditions and you have a net gain of 1e. The skill really shines vs builds with lots of conditions, and in some sense its great vs these DW+Bleeding spamming dervishes. Getting divine favour heal bonuses from draw pales in comparison.

erk · Jun 04, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

The strength of foul feast on necros is that at high levels of soul reaping it can have a net cost of only 1 energy if you remove 2 conditions with it. Id much prefer a ''draw'' that can potentially cost 1e than a draw that always costs 5e. Draw 3 conditions and you have a net gain of 1e. The skill really shines vs builds with lots of conditions, and in some sense its great vs these DW+Bleeding spamming dervishes. Getting divine favor heal bonuses from draw pales in comparison.

Healing costs energy, divine favor saves energy by providing a free heal eg. 38 with 12 in DF. Condition disposal cost's energy or health. If you have a high Soul Reaping bar then it's probably a Wail warder necro, that means that conditions have to be disposed of by something like Plague Sending which will cost the team energy to heal the Necro from the 60+ health sac. If it's not a WoD necro then it's probably curses anti-melee that have perpetual energy problems with the 15e skills. The WoH monk with Draw will typically use Mending Touch giving himself a 100+ heal in the process.

Foul feast buff was intended to add some utility back to the Necro bar to try and save it from Izzy's energy oblivion in GvG, it hasn't really been enough and you want to spoil it!

Double Pact · Jun 04, 2008, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

and remember that axes swing a lot faster than scythes and warriors have constant IAS while dervs have heart of fury which cant be kept up all the time.
also with 8 second recharge its not really "on demand" any longer...

and you also ignore the fact that scythe is a 2 handed weapon, which means no shield available. and also that dervish has 70 armor compared to warrior's 80 and +20 vs physical

Firstly, Warriors have a IAS called Frenzy, it doubles the damage taken but w/e. Warriors can't combine the IAS with a speedbuff, what the derv can.

Secondly, a Warrior who could apply a DW every 8 sec would call it on demand, but Dervish players obviously got used to "every 3 seconds isn't all that much" -.-

Thirdly, a dervish doesn't have to halve his armor in order to attack faster and the way he's played at the moment, he also has a strong antispike permaench in his bar. Spiking a Warrior is way easier than spiking a dervish.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 04, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Foul feast buff was intended to add some utility back to the Necro bar to try and save it from Izzy's energy oblivion in GvG, it hasn't really been enough and you want to spoil it!

You're retarded if you think that a profession should be usable because of 1 broken skill. I don't have a problem with necros being in play but forcing them in play by making a bunch of their skills (wail of doom, foul feast, enfeeble/enfeebling blood) stupidly broken is not the right way to go about it.

Also, at high soulreaping levels, you actually GAIN 1 energy for removing 2 conditions with Foul Feast, cap the maximum energy gain at 4 and cap the energy gain per condition at 2.

FrAnt1c² · Jun 04, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Assa: Way of the master, Critical eye only applies when you are wielding daggers

Or, leave everything as it is, and buff b-surge and ward vs melee again to how it was before the previous update.

Riotgear · Jun 04, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

Assa: Way of the master, Critical eye only applies when you are wielding daggers

Or, leave everything as it is, and buff b-surge and ward vs melee again to how it was before the previous update.

Way of the Master already does NOT apply to daggers. I'm assuming it was designed as a way to allow Assassins to get a more diverse selection of bars and possibly even frontline, but in reality all we got were A/D telespike builds that rolls the problems with scythe damage and shadow steps into one ridiculous package.

Tyla · Jun 04, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritThief

Crit strikes for sins.

Crit Strikes is fine, Scythes are not.

Quote:

Twisting fang and Moebius Strike spam...uh same thing yet no one cares...

The only thing in PvP from 'Sins that is marginly threatening (Talking GvG) is the Shattering Assault build.

Quote:

SR for Necros

Wut?

Quote:

Ele need to be nerfed b/c they can spam Blind on enitre groups non-stop

Used to be able to.

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Make Rangers shouldn't be able to block 90% of time...etc etc

This is the only part you have my agreement, but it's 50% of the time.

Quote:

Hell all you guys want is for the game to super easy from half the stuff you want to change. You guys b**ch and moan about a condition spam but yet no one has yet said anything about these builds that spam non-stop kd and the like. If they wanted balance in the game they wouldn't have had dual classes thats what messes it up.

Because Scythe damage is already stupid. Giving it a cover condition for Deep Wound makes it even more stupid. A 3 second recharge makes it retarded. Having a near permanent speed boost, and an IAS maintainable at a decent level with no real downfall, with an automatically triggered heal that is permanent until triggered?

FrAnt1c² · Jun 04, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Way of the Master already does NOT apply to daggers. I'm assuming it was designed as a way to allow Assassins to get a more diverse selection of bars and possibly even frontline, but in reality all we got were A/D telespike builds that rolls the problems with scythe damage and shadow steps into one ridiculous package.

And im suggesting to make it appliant to daggers, because like you said, these A/D telespike builds are ridiculous, but that would propably destroy the intention of the skill, as you say.