Curse

Killed u man · Jun 03, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Change to:

While you maintain this enchantment you deal +X dmg in melee. so it cant be stacked with conjures because you can only maintain it on yourself then.

Or make it work somehow like Brutal weapon so you cant use it with a conjure.. not sure how though.

So you're suggesting everyone should go W/Mo?

Making it self-target is pretty much deleting it. I am yet to see the day where Mo/anymeleeclass is better than anymeleeclas/Mo...

Heck, I am yet to see the day where anymeleeclas/Mo is better than anymeleeclas/anyotherclassthanmonk...

It's quite simple: Make It deal holy damage, problem fixed, but new problem arises, warriors doing armor ignoring damage on top of +xx damage...

FoxBat · Jun 03, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

None of this was an issue before bsurge nerf and wounding strike buff. Given that I don't see how hitting ever skill is necessary to stop its dominance. The whole thing rests on MoI anyway if you have to hit something.

Agree though that the main problem right now is VoD. All these attempts at nerfing defense fail as there's too many other backup skill configurations that do almost the same thing. GvG itself needs fixing before we get major skill adjustments.

Tyla · Jun 03, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Wounding Strike - Deep wound on top of bleeding.

This, and a recharge time increase. 8 seconds, as said before.

I liked the other suggestions though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

None of this was an issue before bsurge nerf and wounding strike buff. Given that I don't see how hitting ever skill is necessary to stop its dominance. The whole thing rests on MoI anyway if you have to hit something.

That's because certain people balancing decide to ULTRA nerf, and totally kill a whole skill bar or nerf 1-2 skills way too hard. Then because of their ULTRA nerf, they ULTRA buff something else(wounding for example).All that needed to be done about B Surge really was touch hex breaker and remove cracked armor from orb. Also I have no idea why it has taken this long for the majority to figure out how good that signet bar really is, even without buffing dervs it's nasty on normal warriors. Been about a year now that people are finally using it. I think it's safe to say now that Izzy really doesn't want the playerbase to move the meta, instead he's been forcing it for a damn long time now.

Krill · Jun 03, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

Note that there isn't much distinction between good and bad dudes with scythes.

I've always thought the scythe skills that grant bonuses on players with less health was a terrible concept.

1. Crippling Victory: Change to if target foe is moving
2. Chilling Victory: Change bonus cold damage condition to under 50%
3. Victorious Sweep: Leave as is

FoxBat · Jun 03, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Also I have no idea why it has taken this long for the majority to figure out how good that signet bar really is, even without buffing dervs it's nasty on normal warriors. Been about a year now that people are finally using it..

Yeah, that's my other concern. The playerbase doesn't seem to be optimally exploiting all the potentially good builds out there. Suddenly Be team or whoever starts playing this after the reversion and it's a force, you wonder where these builds were during the March monthly when they could've trashed rawr's motigon/bsurge build like they did in the May dATs. Is there a point to trying to balance skills at a monthly pace when it takes longer than a month for players to uncover the best builds? How can you take this game as serious competition if the top players are bound by "honor", inertia or what not and don't Build Wars for maximum advantage?

Tirath Eldrahir · Jun 03, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Boost Draw Conditions to make it as strong as foul feast, theres no reason one should be better than the other.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirath Eldrahir

Boost Draw Conditions to make it as strong as foul feast, theres no reason one should be better than the other.

The latter is only better once you invest 13 points into SR and go necro primary pretty much only viable on hex spitting bars, wail, or plague signet builds, and the rest of the bar is subpar.

Lorekeeper · Jun 03, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Midline meta

I agree with most if not all suggested nerfs in this thread so far, and I really hope that we can somehow go back to the dual warrior, ranger, ele/dual warrior, para, mes, ele meta that we almost had and kept back in march and april.

But for that to happen we would also need foul feast and balths pendulum looked at, since that build is a pretty powerful cockblock for the traditional balanced build in 8vs8 encounters.

Foul feast needs a longer cast time so that it can be caught by interrupts from both rangers and mesmers, and perhaps a longer recharge. 3/4s or 1s cast time with 3-4s recharge.

Balths pendulum needs a much shorter duration and a 3/4s cast time.

Water eles seem to be the most viable midline ele template in the light of the bsurge/ward melee nerfs. That is a strong template as it stands... but it might need a damage buff if they want to buff something to help balanced midlines go back to casters instead of just paragons mesmer interrupts.

Signet smite mesmers are powerful because of their humilities, the KD and the constant danger they pose to frenzy warriors, not to mention how difficult it is to shut them down. Id like to see mantra of inscriptions with a lower duration so that if the mesmers are maintaining enchantments they wont be able to also maintain the mantra 24/7. Without the mantra their threat decreases significanty. But then again, you have to consider what happens if they dont maintain strength of honour or holy wrath (cant believe holy wrath became popular haha), they will then have the energy to keep up even a nerfed duration mantra as long as they bring some form of energy management like a leech signet or castigation signet. In that case, I would suggest a small recharge increase of maybe 5-10seconds to all of the smite signets, and perhaps a slight reduction in the disabling of humility by 1-2 seconds across the board. Changing mantra of inscriptions to only effect mesmer signets is a nerf too far.

Complicate could use a recharge buff, as it pales in comparison to other mesmer interrupts. 5e 15s recharge should do it.

A/D spike

Deal with the A/D template once and for all just to nail that coffin tightly shut... change assassins remedy to remove condition on a hit rather than on attack.

VoD/split meta

I agree with other threads that have called for a reduction in the number of NPCs, I think the two archers in the lord room could go, aswell as some of the archers that guard the outside gates... especially on the isle of weeping stone. There should also be a longer time period between the last wave of NPCs leaving the base and the time that the guild lord leaves.

Less NPCs might make it safer for gank teams to venture into bases which might encourage more splits. Increasing time to gank lord might diversify end game VoD strategies and force flag stand fortress builds to think in two places at once.

Another idea could be to increase the importance of morale boosts at VoD to shift focus away from the stand. Morale boosts could give something like damage boosts or a healing buff to counteract the VoD effect. How about ''morale boosts'' that impose negative effects on the opposition? Healing reduction that stacks with VoD effect? How about a damage inflicted reduction? Or slower cast time? etc etc

If the flag minigame remains important during VoD we might see interesting plays away from the stand, like flagger ganks post VoD, which will break up the 8vs8 clash somewhat. Flagger ganks could lead to lord ganks if teams are too slow to react in time, and with the lord isolated for longer than it is currently, even more so. Forcing flaggers from the stand will also take splinter away unless its run on the midline or a midliner runs the flag. If a midliner goes to run flags it will be vulnerable to a flagger gank.

How to make the flag more important after VoD? Good idea? Bad idea?

Syntonic · Jun 03, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

...Also I have no idea why it has taken this long for the majority to figure out how good that signet bar really is, even without buffing dervs it's nasty on normal warriors. Been about a year now that people are finally using it...

I think it was pretty obvious when smiting sig mesmers became the meta -> all the passive defense types such as aegis/wards and stuff like bsurge were nerfed and fell out of use. This meant melee domination (which was also expected) so people obviously started to super buff the melee. It didn't take the majority that long to figure out what works and doesn't - conjure/strength and honor thing doesn't work out too well with the bsurge/defense webs. Weakness also came back into play because of the above along with several more hexway teams from what I've noticed (though I really can't say how people play in the top tier) but I honestly don't think any changes should be made to enfeebling blood till the other stuff gets toned down.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

I think it was pretty obvious when smiting sig mesmers became the meta -> all the passive defense types such as aegis/wards and stuff like bsurge were nerfed and fell out of use. This meant melee domination (which was also expected) so people obviously started to super buff the melee. It didn't take the majority that long to figure out what works and doesn't - conjure/strength and honor thing doesn't work out too well with the bsurge/defense webs. Weakness also came back into play because of the above along with several more hexway teams from what I've noticed (though I really can't say how people play in the top tier) but I honestly don't think any changes should be made to enfeebling blood till the other stuff gets toned down.

What you mention did have an overall effect as to why they are being used now yes. But also what you mention isn't entirely true, take that mesmer into gvg a few months ago and that bar still takes down aegis and b surge..........It's just right now there's no reason not to run one. There is no shutdown in this current meta, very few rangers, hardly any dom mesmers, so now instead of using hum on a b surge it's being used on the backline/RC while your entire team is getting raped by dervs spamming DW+bleeding every three seconds. Like I've mentioned before these updates that are so called balance updates just force heavily broken metas. Being honest here it's really getting old.

Snow Bunny · Jun 03, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

The bleeding/wounded condition stack needs to change for Wounding Strike. With Sig of Humility spam on the RC, you end up with your WoH spamming dismiss to get rid of the DW on several targets, which is retarded.

Most of this I agree with, just wanted to add that. As the Infuser on my team, it's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing annoying to have the RC disabled and me having to dismiss through bleeding to get to deep wound.

Yichi · Jun 03, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Another idea could be to increase the importance of morale boosts at VoD to shift focus away from the stand. Morale boosts could give something like damage boosts ...

Anet already tried this with the ViO shout and it proved to be a resounding failure, thus they had to revert a lot of it. What would make the morale boosts any different?

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Anet already tried this with the ViO shout and it proved to be a resounding failure, thus they had to revert a lot of it. What would make the morale boosts any different?

It would be exactly the same

. Abusable. So whoever decides and executes to keep the lord tied up with a bunch of snares on each side of the map while gaining boosts reaps the rewards.

Yichi · Jun 03, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

It would be exactly the same

. Abusable...

So another Sin-Eptitude meta.... fun /rollseyes

Snow Bunny · Jun 03, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So another Sin-Eptitude meta.... fun /rollseyes

Dersmite is about as fun to play against.

Problem. · Jun 03, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

It was really obvious that when this balance update came out, that a 3 melee frontline would dominate. Aegis to 15 energy, B-surge nerfed into something that can't really relieve pressure, Ward Against Melee nerfed, etc...While these changes did result in a lot of deaths on each side, it completely took the finesse out of the game.

There was more finesse on the part of the offense when we had defense webs running all over. Here is my argument to this statement:
- Mesmers had to be skilled at microing the various elements of the other teams defense from Ward, to Blinding Surge, to Aegis, to Monks.
- Warriors couldn't auto-attack hitting for 60s, especially Sword Warriors.
- Midline's had to coordinate shutdown
- Warriors had to be more careful in choosing targets to hit due to the amount of "block"
- Smarter teams would push flaggers in an attempt to partially disrupt defense

Some of you proposed ideas, that when you look at them, look nice, but I would have to quote Polly in saying, "that goes after the symptoms, not the real issue."

The overpowered Warriors/Dervishes are a problem because of Conjure having the ability to stack with Strength of Honor. Remove that stacking effect and you've effectively balanced all of the +Dmg buffs to physicals with each other (Order of Pain, Strength of Honor, Conjure X)...All of the removable ones anyway. This stacking effect isn't good for the game when a Sword Warrior can auto-attack for 60s, and a Dervish can auto-attack for 80s and 90s.

I wouldn't nerf Wounding Strike completely yet because, the abuse of Wounding Strike is a symptom of the current meta, no real defense. It could probably take a hit though. The deep-wound should definately not be covered by bleeding.

Mantra of Inscriptions is a tough one. I feel that this skill needs to be viable, in order to make signets viable. Instead of hitting this skill, I would prefer a skill change to Signet of Humility. Turn it into more of a finesse skill, rather than the fire-and-forget skill that it currently is. I believe at a spec of 11 or 12 Inspiration, one can keep any elite disabled for the entire match, granted the skill doesn't get interrupted. Signet of Humility has always been a powerful skill, its power just gets compounded with Inscriptions.

As far as the other skills on the Signet Mesmer bar, I feel Signet of Rage needs to be changed. Its far too powerful when coupled with Inscriptions. Yes I know, by my words, Inscriptions is the root of many of the Signet problems, I would just like to see viable signet builds stay in the meta, just balanced.

As far as VoD, gameplay needs to be changed so that it isn't an NPC farming ritual at VoD. Gameplay however, still needs to maintain a balance between Flag-Running (Morale), and NPCs. VoD is probably the most core issue, once VoD is fixed, you can fix a lot of skills so as not to alienate any playstyle or build, Pressure, Split, Spike.

Lorekeeper · Jun 03, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

The sineptitude meta was bad because of the stupid ViO shout and sineptitude... that doesnt mean that well thought out ways of shifting focus away from the stand are inherently bad. They could make a similiar attempt to shift attention away from the stand by reducing the number of NPCs, increasing the time the lord is isolated, and perhaps increasing the importance of running flags (if morale boosts were to increase damage it would only apply to party members and not allies). But they could grant other bonuses or penalties as a result of morale boosts at VoD like healing buffs/healing reductions etc. I cant see any other way of reducing the dominance of fortress builds, the dual rit rawr build is simply another defensive web, and I'm sure rawr could come up with another one if this one gets nerfed somehow... remedial skill balances are boring imo.

If degenerate sinsplit dominates everytime Anet tries to shift our attention away from the stand I think its pretty clear what kind of message that is sending to them, a message most GW players have been giving since their addition to the game.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

remedial skill balances are boring imo.

I rather have the problem fixed and be bored for a month, then have total skill bars deleted from the game then have another shitty broken meta month after month. If balances could go back a few updates relating back to viable LOD days with all the decent nerfs inbetween it would be much easier to start farting around with VOD changes.

DutchSmurf · Jun 03, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Mantra of Inscriptions is a tough one. I feel that this skill needs to be viable, in order to make signets viable.

You can also just kill MoI and buff individual signets to make signets viable on their own. Skills like MoI always give balance problems. Either they are viable and make other skills too strong (which is why Diversion and Shame got a nerf once because of MoR) or they are too bad to be used. I prefer the last option.