Curse

Hyper Cutter · Jun 03, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Aggressive Refrain - Change to +33% adrenaline.

Wouldn't that make it... well, suck (I realize that may well be the intent here)? That would make it a worse nonelite [focused anger], and that's not a great skill to begin with...

DarkNecrid · Jun 03, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

^lol?

AR = one time cast.
FA = multi time cast.

AR = can be maintained forever with a shout you're gonna take anyways
FA = requires another skill to be maintained forever.

AR = 25 energy for forever.
FA = Infinite energy for forever.

AR owns FA in every way with +33% adrenaline.

Double Pact · Jun 03, 2008, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Read though the list of melee knockdown skills, how many do unconditional bonus damage like that? The autocrit is already doing 35*1.2*1.41=59 hammer damage, and you want to add another +25 plus the knockdown = 84 damage in one hit for what's supposed to be a snare for fleeing enemies. That's a lot of damage even Backbreaker does not do that much damage and it's an knockdown elite which required adrenaline build up, not "on demand" like Bull's is. Now if say Coward or Gale did 84 damage then perhaps Bull's wouldn't stick out so much.

If the KD and +dmg were unconditional, the skill would certainly be OP - But as a matter of fact, there is a condition! It says "If attack hits a moving foe". In addition, it has a normal activation time (if it was a dervish skill, it would probably be 1/4 cast

)
Backbreaker KDs for 4 sec and doesn't require a moving foe, Gale (which also applies to not moving foes) is supposed to take out the backline during spikes, not to deal damage; that would be pointless and coward hast no activation time which makes it extremely hard to counter (and it's way more spammable than bulls strike, 4 adren ftw)

Nothing wrong with bulls strike imo...

Krill · Jun 03, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'm not sure what to do with Wail of Doom, I think it's an interesting skill and Arcane Echo's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing it up.

I don't find anything interesting about it. The premise of the (revised) skill is retarded and the cast time is ridiculous. Also, nobody echo's it, they stay in a 40/40 or 20/40 set most of the match and use GoLE to keep Insidious Parasite and Faintheartedness up on your frontline, covered with defile defenses, which is also another ridiculously overpowered hex I might add. Then of course they clear all conditions with FF and send them back with plague sending for a small sac (if any after the FF healing) and very little energy.

Riotgear · Jun 03, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

In retrospect +33% adrenaline on AR may not even be a good idea because of combining it with Flail.

I really would like to see auto-reapply echoes replaced with upkeep costs similar to maintained enchantments, but Aggressive Refrain still needs a tap one way or another. Maybe just take the traditional route and replace the RC fuel with an actual armor debuff.

Archer count needs to go down too, but that's not exactly skill-related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I don't find anything interesting about it. The premise of the (revised) skill is retarded and the cast time is ridiculous.

Conceptually, it's a short-duration hex that provides major payoffs if it's used at the right times. In reality, it's spam.

I wouldn't complain seeing it dropped to 3 second duration max and recharge bumped to 12-15.

And yes, FF is kind of ridiculous at the moment, but we knew that. Higher recharge, IMO.

Krill · Jun 03, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Conceptually, it's a short-duration hex that provides major payoffs if it's used at the right times. In reality, it's spam.

I wouldn't complain seeing it dropped to 3 second duration max and recharge bumped to 12-15.

I could live with that, but I still don't like the premise. In my opinion, if anet wanted to make it more than a spam skill they should change it to something like this, and still bump the cast and recharge times:

Elite Hex Spell: For 4 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, all skills of that attribute are set to 0 for 1...7...8 seconds.

Basically a glorified division-power block type skill.

urania · Jun 03, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

balth pendulum - reduce duration, increase recharge, increase casting time.
wounding strike - increase recharge, make deep wound apply after bleeding and not vice versa.
plague sending - revert the changes made to it
ff - cap energy gain, increase recharge
wod - increase casting time and recharge or just revert the skill back to what it was...
assassins remedy - increase casting time/recharge time and the way it removes conds
shattering sin combo - make at least golden fox strike blockable, if not, make shattering blockable and remove its stance or ench removal

la_cabra_de_vida · Jun 03, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Random shit:

Escape - End when you hit with an attack.

Mantra of Inscriptions - Major duration hit.

Ancestor's Rage and Splinter Weapon - Die.

Wounding Strike - Deep wound on top of bleeding.

All shadow steps - 15 second recharge increase.

Windborne Speed - Reduce cast time to 1/4 sec.

Yea all that, soh needs to do holy damage to not stack with conjure.

Complicate to 12 second recharge.

Arage to one adjacent foe only.

Splinter to 5 1/4 1

Change to the next attack only. So basically make it exactly like ghoastly weapon.

*lemming* · Jun 03, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Mantra of Inscriptions is what's wrong with the meta, not SoH/Conjure stacking or Wounding Strike.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jun 03, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Mantra of Inscriptions is what's wrong with the meta, not SoH/Conjure stacking or Wounding Strike.

Pretty sure they are all part of the problem.

Cass · Jun 03, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

In my opinion, the most overpowered part of the current metabuild is the Dervish. Wounding strike is too strong. I agree that a large part of the problem with Dervs is the Scythe max dmg, causing massive critical hits (AoE makes this worse). It also leads to disgusting A/D and R/D builds, although this sort of thing started with R/W thumpers in the first place (nerf expertise finally!).
For the rest it's hard to nerf Dervs I guess. Their enchant stack buffs them over the top, but then again this is so by design. The avatars used to be problematic in a very similar manner. Maybe having a prophecies-only division solves all this? :P

The smiting-signet mesmer is not the most interesting build, but it isn't very strong without the synergy with A) maintained Strength of Honor on top of regular conjures and B) with Hum Sig.

A) Strength of Honor is pretty weak on its own, but an easy fix is to make it holy damage, negating the stackability with the conjures.

B) Hum Sig is an at least somewhat interesting form of shutdown, even under mantra. The synergy with smiting signets is lame though. I like the idea of having mantra affect only mesmer signets-- this would still allow Inspiration-based or hybrid builds with Hum Sig (e.g, in a condition pressure team, energy denial), but stops the mindless smiting signet spam.

Another idea about those smite signets: Signet of Rage should do extra dmg for attacking foes, not for having adrenalin-based skills. Why punish wars only when they are the most interesting melee class in the game?

kalzu · Jun 03, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

The guy calling for a bull's nerf is so lost it's not even funny.

EDIT: Srsly. It's like nerfing prots 'cause they're better than redbar skills.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 03, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalzu

The guy calling for a bull's nerf is so lost it's not even funny.

EDIT: Srsly. It's like nerfing prots 'cause they're better than redbar skills.

Profession: W/Mo

^I rest my case!

J/k, don't touch bull's or I'll kill your family!

DutchSmurf · Jun 03, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I think we would have a far more interesting discussion if the question was what kind of balance we want to see. Everyone knows what is wrong with the current metagame anyway, no need to talk about that. The problem with nerfing the current one tho is that next month we will have a new metagame that probably won't be much better, whatever it might be. So instead of limiting ourselves to nerfing, I think we should consider buffing skills to push the game in the right direction. Or at least shake things up a lot.

On the other hand, GvG is broken that much that it can't be saved anyway. I would rather see Anet experiment with sealed deck tournaments, maybe a costume brawl like one. Would have more effect then balancing skills for sure.

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 03, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Pact

- Scythe Crit Dmg:
Simply too high, literally every physical class except warrior is played with a scythe atm (Derv, Sins, Rangers), because Scythe dmg is aoe and crits with it are SICK (SoH and conjures make it even worse, but that's not the problem itsself...)
--> Tone down Scythe Crit Dmg

- Expertise (again^^):
Erm, imo it's abused with any secondary class (atm it's spamming Pious+CHilling Victory); I'd make it apply for ranger attributes only. That wouldn't hurt a usual GvG Ranger like Cripshot, Magebane, etc too much; 5e Mending Touch is acceptable

Agreed that Scythe damage and Expertise are over the top. But if you kill them too much you end up with 1/10 classes that can kill things. You can argue whether YOU like that or not but Izzy has made it pretty clear that he thinks it is uninteresting.

I think you want to find a balance where :
bad warrior < random dude with scythe < good warrior

Note that there isn't much distinction between good and bad dudes with scythes. Perhaps making Wounding Strike, Chilling Victory, and Pious Assult somehow more conditional based on skill (ala bulls strike) would be nice. Any ideas?

EDIT: /agree with above poster - Sealed Deck tournaments would be the best thing they could do to keep the game interesting right now. I know they've done it internally (on HB maps lol) so they know HOW to do it. The trick would be finding a set of skills to make the game interesting and not heavily tilted towards one single overpowered build.

kvndoom · Jun 03, 2008, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

I think you want to find a balance where :
bad warrior < random dude with scythe < good warrior

Fixed that for ya.

Some good ideas posted here, which probably will never happen, since Izzy hates good ideas. Riverside > you.

I like the Rending Touch idea. Lose one enchantment. If an enchantment is lost, then target touched foe also loses one enchantment.

Foul Feast needs to die. Sure it makes necros playable, but it's better than most necro elites (except for WoD, of course!). Or, to balance things out, let's:

Draw Conditions: 5e 1/4c 2r Attribute Divine Favor. Transfer all conditons from target other ally to yourself. For each condition transferred, you gain x health and x energy.

See where that takes us.

Another alternative nerf to Wounding Strike would be to disable it for 10 seconds if it results in a critical hit. Would make it interesting, but a recharge nerf would work just as well. I think most of the major problems have already been addressed. Looks like PVP needs more nerfs than buffs at the current moment. Sad.

Killed u man · Jun 03, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

I think we should consider buffing skills to push the game in the right direction. Or at least shake things up a lot.

qft...

I mean, how long have we been playing (Both in HA and GvG) with somewhat the same meta? I mean, nerf Wounding Strike and Sig Mesmer, and we'll once again be where we were 1-2 months ago...

The power of GW simply is the fact you're relying for 80-90% on what skills you have on your bar. (Denying = Lying) In other words: Buffing 200 skills into the meta means you'll have a new game for 80-90%... Making it fresh and fun again for ALOT of people... (Besides all the VoD problems etc... bla bla bla)

JR · Jun 03, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

balth pendulum - reduce duration, increase recharge, increase casting time.

An increase on casting time and reduction on duration is retarded.

If izzy wanted to keep it as a passive anti-KD, then increase in casting time is fine. If he wanted it more active then reduce duration. Doing both just makes it good at neither, and kills a very good skill.

KDs are far too powerful in this game. Any tools to keep them in check are worth keeping playable imo.

Wild Karrde · Jun 03, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Monk

[U]Strength of Honor, changed to while you maintain this enchantment target ally deals x amount more in melee(physical dmg only)

Change to:

While you maintain this enchantment you deal +X dmg in melee. so it cant be stacked with conjures because you can only maintain it on yourself then.

Or make it work somehow like Brutal weapon so you cant use it with a conjure.. not sure how though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 03, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I would really like to see a major duration nerf to the mantra of inscriptions skill. What I listed in the first post seems alright, maybe a bit low on duration but at least making it a non fire and forget skill would be a start. Right now that signet mes is just too viable. Outputting 2 kds every 11 seconds, that are ranged oh and to boot cause dmg. If those mesmers had to you use the 10e for mantra at least every 25 seconds they would not be able to buff three fontline, and be able to take mirror. If they wanted to buff 2 frontliners and take a mirror they would also have to dedicate a skill slot for some kind of e management.

I'd like to see expertise just work with ranger skills, anything else has always just been degenerate templates, touchers, R/D's, R/A.

Hex breaker again I'd like it to not be a fire and forget skill. Making it a more active stance sorta like shield bash would be nice, rewarding people for using it at the right moments. Want to get off that skill so bad use hex breaker, see that mesmer twirling use it, instead it's just fire and forget you can't touch my midline skill.