Curse

DreamWind · Apr 17, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

That would be jolly well but you know they can't do that. And the game was relatively balanced then because there were 450 skills, not 1250, and the completely unnecessary professions that keep screwing up the meta didn't exist back then.

I know. And I agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

No, it really was just "delete everything after Proph/Factions".

Which would be the best thing for PvP balance. Threads like these ask for suggested balance updates. The likelihood of them happening is irrelevent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Skill balance right now is better than it has been in a long time. To be honest, there are very little skills/builds that need changes. Sure, a couple skills need minor fixes but for the most part GvG is more balanced than it ever has been.

Maybe balance has been better than it has been in a long time which is good. That still doesn't take away from the fact that there are at least 4 classes that were built on bad ideas to begin with (and still cause problems in every format they are seen in).

Food · Apr 18, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Kill natural stride
Kill mending touch

No.

Those two skills are essential to ranger survivability (Natural Stride more than MTouch).

Natural Stride should be kept the way it is, especially because of the fact on how condition it is.

I agree Mtouch is a little overpowered, maybe make the breakpoints for 1,2,3 condo removals at 1...6...9.

DutchSmurf · Apr 18, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Food

Those two skills are essential to ranger survivability (Natural Stride more than MTouch).

Good rangers should be able to survive perfectly fine without those 2 skills. Even more if they are cripshot. Natural Stride and MTouch allow rangers to get into situations they shouldn't have been, but still survive fine. Just look back to the time before Factions, good rangers survived fine back then.

Greedy Gus · Apr 18, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Food

No.

Those two skills are essential to ranger survivability (Natural Stride more than MTouch).

Natural Stride should be kept the way it is, especially because of the fact on how condition it is.

I agree Mtouch is a little overpowered, maybe make the breakpoints for 1,2,3 condo removals at 1...6...9.

Join Date: Mar 2008 <----------------------------------

The entire point of this topic was looking back on GvG from the past 3 years, in order to see what we can learn from it. If you don't have that perspective, don't weigh in.

JR · Apr 18, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Join Date: Mar 2008 <----------------------------------

The entire point of this topic was looking back on GvG from the past 3 years, in order to see what we can learn from it. If you don't have that perspective, don't weigh in.

I didn't realize that when you install Guild Wars it automatically creates your Guru account at the same time?

Greedy Gus · Apr 18, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I didn't realize that when you install Guild Wars it automatically creates your Guru account at the same time?

I guess we should give every shitter the benefit of the doubt? It seems easier to me to paint neon signs around the clues indicating inexperience and lack of perspective, but maybe I'm just lazy.

pah01 · Jun 21, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

bumping thread so shitters can re-read it

Yichi · Jun 21, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Honestly, why bump it anymore?

ANET isn't going to listen and shitters aren't going to grasp anything... Maybe if we PVE enough, then bitch, we might get something accomplished. The PVE crowd did

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jun 29, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Epic win OP.

DarkNecrid · Jun 30, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I wish he'd do something about the Synergy skills. I'm taking this term from Diablo, where points in one attribute modifys another (ie: THUNDER MASTERY IMPROVES LIGHTNING BOLT TO DO +X POINTS OF DMG PER POINT), and meaning skills in Guild Wars that modify other skills. I think a lot of these are really dumb as a lot of people know, and time and time again can serve in only 2 spectrums: horribly overpowered or horribly useless.

Examples:
[Deadly Haste] = lol.
[Mantra of Inscriptions] = OWNSS
[Deadly Paradox] = was lol, is now pretty shite unless if in PvE.
[Elemental Attunement] and such = lol because of Enchant removal.
[Onslaught] = lol.
etc etc etc.

The reason being that all the skills they modify are basically built around you usually having these things on, and if they aren't, then you better hope to god the synergy skill sucks.

I hope they move away from these types of things in GW2.

DutchSmurf · Jun 30, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

And I hope they do the same with attributes then. Like all ranger skills are balanced around Expertise, forcing you to use it if you want to use a ranger. And as you said, the Attunements too.

glountz · Jul 08, 2008, 08:30 AM // 08:30

I tried to play boon prot again after OoB cost lowering.
Still quite unsufficient.
The problem lies in the sacrifice mechanism, which is IMHO stupid. Sacrifice a % of your life means that the more life you have the more damage you will take. With the current meta of high health characters to prevent the Nightfall ultra-power creep to spike you to death, you actually sacrifice very large chunks of health, which is an invite to every sin to kill you in one blow.
So I would rework sacrifice skills to make you loose a determined amount of life, whatever your life is. Yes this change seems drastic, but sacrifice skills will continue to be largely unused if something is not done. And I think that the problem lies really in the sacrifice design.
As well as Imbagons issue lies in Leadership design rather than the skills they have.
As well as rangers with spears lies in spear DPS design rather than in bow damage.
As well as the dervish issue lies in the scythe AoE+insane crit damage design rather than the skills they have.
I think Factions was still a very good PvP add-on to the game. Nightfall really was the main issue, with broken mechanics not only in the skills, but in the two new characters' design, as well as in the buffing of existing characters.
Remember that the sin, before Nightfall, was poorly considerated and largely unused. Nightfall introduced its most imba skills (SP for example), as well as buffing through the roof a large number of poor skills (Wild strike, for example).

I still remember that gale warriors were largely overpowered in Prophecies, with broken mechanics such as the Lieutenant's helm and broken gale (which was essentially due to the broken exhaustion mechanic, not really in the skill design). I prefered largely the Faction meta than the Prophecies' one.

The Fallen One · Jul 13, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

These are all interesting suggestions for game balance. Before you start quoting my Guru join date at me, keep in mind that I think I made this account about a year since I started playing Guild Wars. (I started playing a month after the game released).

I generally approve with most of the changes presented in the OP, but there are some things I'd like to put up for consideration. It's prudent to note that I have nowhere near enough time to read through all 15 pages of this massive thread. So, if ideas have been posted through pages 3 to 15, I'm probably unaware of them, and might repost something that's been suggested before.

So, it's not really about how much I approve, but with what I disapprove that's particularly progressive for this topic. I'd like to mention Boon Prots., as more often than not I've played monk for my entire career. I believe that they should be brought up, but not fully to the level they were at pre-nerf. My reasoning for this is that obviously you want options. Make boon prot. a powerful option, but not so overwhelmingly powerful that it removes the current monk meta from the board. Also, you have to remember one of the original concerns of Mysticism with Divine Boon(unlimited energy on Dervish).

I'd like to voice my concern about Hex Eater Vortex. It's rarely used and not degenerate in any way I can name. If you're going to nerf Vortex, you might as well go and nerf Smite Hex. Vortex doesn't punish active hexing in my opinion any more than does a regular hex removal like Holy Veil. The damage isn't extreme, and I've never heard anyone say something like: "Let's not take a water ele in case they have Hex Eater Vortex." It's already elite, what other drawbacks do you really want? The damage makes up for the fact that the recharge is longer than many generic hex removals. If anything, I'd personally like to see this skill take multiple hexes off with corresponding recharge time increase (Shatter Storm, but less dramatic), with an unvarying amount of damage if a hex is removed. That adds some reward/drawback consideration to it, something that the OP obviously craves.

And amazingly, that's all I can find to mention. It's a great original post, and I really wish it would be enacted, however unlikely that actually is.

~Fallen

Yue · Jul 14, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I guess we should give every shitter the benefit of the doubt? It seems easier to me to paint neon signs around the clues indicating inexperience and lack of perspective, but maybe I'm just lazy.

Rangers already don't see play. Why nerf them more?

Rhamia Darigaz · Jul 14, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

"Limited" formats work in pretty much every competitive card game. In Magic the Gathering, most tournament formats are either some form of sealed deck or draft, or constructed formats based on a limited pool of sets to draw from. I don't believe the Vintage (every card ever made allowed from any set) has ever been played on the Pro Tour, and not just for cost reasons.

I think "unlimited" play in Guild Wars should be relegated to HA and ladder GVGs.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

Greedy Gus · Jul 14, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fallen One

I'd like to voice my concern about Hex Eater Vortex. It's rarely used and not degenerate in any way I can name. If you're going to nerf Vortex, you might as well go and nerf Smite Hex. Vortex doesn't punish active hexing in my opinion any more than does a regular hex removal like Holy Veil. The damage isn't extreme, and I've never heard anyone say something like: "Let's not take a water ele in case they have Hex Eater Vortex."

Yep, the HEV point is somewhat outdated now because it actually did get a nerf to the damage packet size right around the time I posted the thread (I believe). Although to be sure, at the time people were saying your hypothetical quote exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Rangers already don't see play. Why nerf them more?

The game has been continuously borked by random buffs, and yes that does include many instances since I wrote this in February/March. When you have a superficial level of balance based on interchanging random metas on the surface just by powering up different skills, its really going to be hard to dig down into the core issues through purposeful power shifts like reworking rangers to be healthier for the game (based on precedent, not estimation).

So sure, if izzy is just going to keep making new metas every few months like dervs & signet mesmers constantly, you're probably better off leaving rangers with their condi removal and bar compression. But the overriding theme of this topic was about attempting to look back on what worked best over 3 years of GvG, and illuminate a potential way to start reaching a good stable balance, should at any time in the future A-net develop a will to do so.

wuzzman · Jul 14, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

really this thread should be renamed "delete everything after Proph "

Legendary Shiz · Jul 14, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

really this thread should be renamed "delete everything after Proph "

Look at something that was quoted in the first post of this page.

You're not funny, and you're not original. Shut up.

I agree that there are a ton of things to need to be balanced out still, but three years ago everything wasn't "balanced". People were still crying about this and that, no matter what meta came around there was always something else to whine about. Looking back 3 years in the past for help balancing the game now doesn't make any sense. The game is far more evolved now, which I know you already know. There just needs to be some dedication on Anets part and this game could be extremely playable again.

wuzzman · Jul 15, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

really this thread should be renamed "delete everything after Proph "

and I say this again because 99.9999999999999999% percent of this thread is basically dedicated to yet rant about how factions and nightfalls ruined the game. Well gee the game must rock now because 99.99% of the stuff in factions and nightfalls aren't playable, in which case to anyone who bought factions and nightfalls you pretty much wasted 100 dollars. Any who this post will probably bed eleted out of existence so I will enjoy my extended vacation.

Anywho this game lacks options, not even enough to cry rock paper scissors. Playing with whats left after removing the current flavor will just incite more stuff getting pounded even stuff that existed since the beginning of the game. Anywho it gave me alot of lol's when anet made shadow stepping into "step and wave mechanic" that I suggested several months earlier. Starting to wonder if the wammo would work in gvg, I'm sure no one would ever manage killing him.

Riotgear · Jul 15, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Well gee the game must rock now because 99.99% of the stuff in factions and nightfalls aren't playable, in which case to anyone who bought factions and nightfalls you pretty much wasted 100 dollars.

Factions was 99% crap in PvP, except for the Monk skills which have been obsoleted by the new, imbalanced WoH.

The irony is that Nightfall was 95% game-ruining power creep, and the 5% that was good has been overshadowed by recent power creep.