Curse

ensoriki · Mar 05, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

why buff gale?
2 second kd is powerful enough.

valence · Mar 05, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Nerfing new classes out of existence isn't realistic. That's foolish. They aren't going to nerf two expansions worth of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

That's the damn point. Figure out how to make them balanced so they don't have to be a broken template. I never claimed I knew exactly how, I'm just pointing out it needs to be done.

Expecting 4 class reworks aint realistic either, this has been asked for many times. Minimizing their play in high end gvg (those people don't care if they are not playable) is a simple solution.

A year ago everyone would have agreed with you tho.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Expecting 4 class reworks aint realistic either, this has been asked for many times. Minimizing their play in high end gvg (those people don't care if they are not playable) is a simple solution.

A year ago everyone would have agreed with you tho.

Well you know I don't care if their play is minimized as long as they are still viable options. I don't care if Warriors are used by most people as long as Assassins and Dervishes are still comparable on some level. I'm convinced the people arguing against me honestly think they cannot be balanced in some sort of fashion so they HAVE to be complete garbage. It's a gross exaggeration of what needs to be done.

I mean, people say either Assassins have to be terrible, or they have to be overpowered. I disagree. People forget that Assassins not only received a godlike buff to almost every attack skills they had, but they also received godlike skills from Nightfall. It's not the concept of the Assassin that's overpowered, it's what they became through a series of buffs. They didn't go through the spectrum of middle ground to become what they are today and I guess people just don't see that middle ground is attainable.

Kyp Jade · Mar 05, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

GW is full of garbage skills already, hundreds of them. Any reason not to have garbage classes too?

valence · Mar 05, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Bottom Line: Forms are overpowered and underpowered, all other Elites force degenerate play, Scythe damage varies too much, enchantments cause either brokenness or suckiness, not a middle ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

I'm convinced the people arguing against me honestly think they cannot be balanced in some sort of fashion so they HAVE to be complete garbage. It's a gross exaggeration of what needs to be done.

Think you underestimate how flawed classes are.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

I mean, people say either Assassins have to be terrible, or they have to be overpowered. I disagree. People forget that Assassins not only received a godlike buff to almost every attack skills they had, but they also received godlike skills from Nightfall. It's not the concept of the Assassin that's overpowered, it's what they became through a series of buffs. They didn't go through the spectrum of middle ground to become what they are today and I guess people just don't see that middle ground is attainable.

The middle ground is a class called warrior. If the assassin cannot do insane stuff, it is not playable. The only thing aside from instagibs giving assassins playability is abusing maps with shadowsteps. I wouldnt consider the latter healthy either.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

GW is full of garbage skills already, hundreds of them. Any reason not to have garbage classes too?

Because I payed money for expansions I expected to have usable characters for and if they become nerfed out of existence I want my money back.

Quote:

Think you underestimate how flawed classes are.

Read my last post again I edited it. See if your opinion changes.

TaCktiX · Mar 05, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I find it hilarious that I just posted a lengthy set of suggestions for how to fix all 4 bad classes, and everyone's too busy arguing over whether they should exist in high-end at all. Perhaps consider the fixes instead of the ideological point?

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

I find it hilarious that I just posted a lengthy set of suggestions for how to fix all 4 bad classes, and everyone's too busy arguing over whether they should exist in high-end at all. Perhaps consider the fixes instead of the ideological point?

I was arguing the idealogical point before you even started giving your fixes. You have to convince people that it needs to be balanced before discussing the balances. I actually agree with much of what you said, but it takes some time for me to think it through and come up with a response. Don't get pissy with me considering I'm on your side

wuzzman · Mar 05, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

if guild wars goes through the process of eliminating classes that they previously added, then good bye 90% of those who bother pvp'ing(I'm guessing but I'm sure that 90% of those who do a "pvp activity" play RA, AB, HB). They probably scrap any plans for support for pvp past that point.

valence · Mar 05, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

I find it hilarious that I just posted a lengthy set of suggestions for how to fix all 4 bad classes, and everyone's too busy arguing over whether they should exist in high-end at all. Perhaps consider the fixes instead of the ideological point?

To be honest, it is old news. You are right with your post, so is popo that is should be fixed. That solution however has been ignored for a very long time, what gives you the idea they want to change a class.

Last time they tried to fix dervs it was a change to Pious Assualt. It worked, dervs are played. Good job.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

To be honest, it is old news. You are right with your post, so is popo that is should be fixed. That solution however has been ignored for a very long time, what gives you the idea they want to change a class.

Last time they tried to fix dervs it was a change to Pious Assualt. It worked, dervs are played. Good job.

It could be the fact that they appear to be more active in looking at our discussions. This might even help them in balancing GW2.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 05, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

They aren't going to nerf two expansions worth of money.

Why not? They've already cashed in

On topic:
Can't say that I'd enjoy seeing 3x5e gales in builds with buffs to distortion and teleporting blackout garbage. Anet is pretty behind in the game as usual. The chance of them fixing dervs, sins, paras, addressing VIO and then proceeding to make tweaks to everything GUS listed in this thread and the other are slim to none.

moriz · Mar 05, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Why not? They've already cashed in

customer relations. anet's still interested in selling GW2, and nerfing the four expansion professions most certainly won't help them sell GW2.

anyways, i think izzy has already fixed the ritualist well enough. that profession went from spirit-shitting garbage into a fairly well-rounded skirmisher. i have no idea what can be done about paragons assassins and dervishes though.

DutchSmurf · Mar 05, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Why not? They've already cashed in

Probably has to do something with all the PvE, RA and AB people getting angy, who happen to be more then 95% of the people going to pay for GW2 if they are kept happy.

Anyway, I think a good start would be targeting the Leadership attribute and make it something like for each point your shouts/chants last x% longer. Instead of giving energy. With the energy gone, WY and GftE should become less popular. Just like as an effect of those 2 no longer giving energy, all their other stuff gets harder to be used. Combine that with a change to Aggressive Refrain (personally like the remove crack armor, change to more adrenaline instead of faster attacking) and I think you are about done with them for now. Until the next problem shows up of course. Oh yes, don't forget Spear Swipe.
For the dervish the first step is breaking the Grenth's Aura/Pious Assault combo. And giving Pious Assault a normal activation. Next step might be giving Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack a longer recharge. That way they will still spike better then warriors and work better on a split then a warrior. However, warriors have better armor and more utility. So it turns into a choice you can make, with most people favoring warriors probably.
Next on the list is the assassin. Personally I would kill all skills that work outside the L-O-D chain that aren't elite. Move Vampiric Assault to another attribute, don't care much where. You can argue for both dagger and shadow I think.
The rit is mostly fine for now, once the game gets into a more balanced state we can try buffing some parts of them.
About Gale, I would just want to see how the metagame does without it on warriors first and then decide if it has to be buffed or not. I feel that Bull's Strike and Shock give them enough tools to use already. I know Gale was great on warriors earlier, but I feel like Shock is the more balanced option.

ensoriki · Mar 05, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

anyways, i think izzy has already fixed the ritualist well enough. that profession went from spirit-shitting garbage into a fairly well-rounded skirmisher. i have no idea what can be done about paragons assassins and dervishes though.

weaken paragon damage, put them in a more defined supportive role but uh......uh

Dervish is like a warrior with to much damage in his hands...so just bring that down.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 05, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

One thing not addressed in the OP is the power creep in caster spike skills, which presents a serious problem in rebuffing Gale. In the 'old days', good caster spike skills were limited by 2s casts. When people got around that restriction and combined it with Gale, you got some very powerful and degenerate builds. 3s Gale and 1s spike skills are an incredibly powerful combination, as seen the old FC Air Spike build, or the Eurospike meta after Nightfall's release. I'm not sure you can safely rebuff Gale with caster damage in its current form.

On a more general level, I don't think it's possible to predict the result of large sweeping changes like this through theory alone. It would certainly be a different game, but I don't think anyone can predict whether it would be a balanced one. There are too many differences between now and pre-Nightfall, both on the mechanical level and the overall skill of the community.

That's not to say these are bad ideas, but don't assume that they'll immediately lead to a balanced game. People will find degenerate combos you haven't thought of, and additional iterations and changes will still be required - whether Arenanet plans to support the game for that long is in serious doubt at this point.

the_deSKtructor · Mar 05, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Anyway, I think a good start would be targeting the Leadership attribute and make it something like for each point your shouts/chants last x% longer. Instead of giving energy. With the energy gone, WY and GftE should become less popular. Just like as an effect of those 2 no longer giving energy, all their other stuff gets harder to be used.

That would need a whole rework of the class imo. Skills like Anthem of flame and gfte doesn't really change if they'd last 10 or 20 secs, refrains that renews whenever a shout/chant ends would be even crappier (even if those refrains are bad in concept imo). As some other players said, the best thing would be to limit the number of shouts/chants that can be active at the same time.

Boogz · Mar 05, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

read TaCktiX post about dervishes , assassins , paragons and rits please , complaining that the four new classes must be nerfed into uselessness is simply ridiculous

Kaon · Mar 05, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

I haven't seen a single good argument FOR buffing Gale enough that Warriors should have them.

It gives the game MUCH more possibilities in strategy and builds. It encourages playerskill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

You are trying to get the change done so it is your job to
convince others. And address the actual point.

Gus, others, and I have given powerful arguments. The problem is a lot of people are too inexperienced, narrowminded, or stupid to comprehend them.

Quote:

Why do Warrior need to be more powerful than they already are?

This is an irrelevant statement. More powerful? Specify. They get more tactical ability, what is wrong with that?

If there's a skill that encourages playerskill, allows people to profile themselves again, and can give the entire game a positive swing, why would you possibly complain?

moriz · Mar 05, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

and that's where your argument stops making sense kaon. buffing gale to 5 energy will NOT give the game a positive swing. warriors already have very strong tactical ability and really do not need any more. give them more, and they step beyond being powerful to being overpowered. that is BAD for the game.

buffing gale to 3 sec KD, while keeping the 10 energy is the way to go.