Curse

Razz L Dazzle · Mar 05, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

If they introduced new classes, then those new classes should be tailored to this game and be viable options. If you disagree with this then I truly feel sorry for you because you have such a close-minded view of how this game should be played.

While it may be great to say that all classes need to be viable and balanced, this is far from happening. As a direct result of poor desigen and mechanics Rits, Sins, Paragons and Dervishes have ruined guildwars. Izzy very much takes your viewpoint that all classes need to be used in high-level GvG. Each time one of these professions ends up in the game its under a broken template. Each time a Dervish is bumped into playability that meta-game is degenerate. For examples to qualify this see Wearying strike spam, Melandru immune to active/ skilled Crip/blind defense. Grenth dervish training off enchantments. The new Pious Assualt/ Grenth Aura spike build. I think it would be far better to realize that the Dervish isn't meant for high level play in any arena and leave it out of play until it was re-designed. These classes haven't added any depth to the meta-game they've existed in. Their strategies are almost entirely spike-based, as each of the professions was designed with over-powered damage skills compared to their predecessors. Neo isn't being close minded, he's being honest. Warriors were well designed, skillful and deep as a profession. Deep wounds require adrenaline build-up while each of the other classes spam them on recharge Or in a 3,2,1 punch.: See pious assault, Augury of Death, Wearying Strike, impale, TF combos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

This is the typical response. I'm not saying it's necessarily "bad," but it epitomizes the laziness of this forum. Otherwise, the classes should just be removed from the game and realistically that is not going to happen. You claim that new classes could not introduce something that Warriors cannot already accomplish and that is where your fault lies. You could not possibly know what we might be missing out on.

Assuming everyone is lazy does nothing to sway anyone to your point of view and makes you look silly. Try using concrete examples as to how and why each class has to viable, instead of resorted to using close minded and laziness as the backbone as to why your view is more informed. What might we be missing out on? Since creation i haven't seen one positive contribution any of these classes have brought. Provide specific examples as to what they've added that is good for the game.

As a side-note many people are ruining this thread. It is being filled with unsubstantiated jargon. If you have a different view point use evidence and develop a case. I've haven't seen any of Gus' detractors make any logical or sufficient argument to sway me to their oppinion. Poor moderation.

urania · Mar 05, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

i agree with the posts claiming that the new proffs should be kicked out of competitive play. why? simply because they obviously werent implemented to improve the game itself but rather to keep most of the pve community still interested in this game - this explains the short time gap between the release of new chapters and the poor balance done inbetween.
sure, creating new builds in pvp might have been a good side effect to the whole plan, its a pity that it turned out pretty bad, resulting in mainly gimmick builds. and build wars.

now if we go back to the balance update, killing HC heal spam and derv spike along with shadowstepping would be sweet, pity its kinda late for it already though =')
also, bring back the mo/me boons!

Akaraxle · Mar 05, 2008, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'd counter that with; the original blindbot template was quite a versatile character that allowed for good team diversity and, as everything should be, became better as player skill and team coordination improved.

That is true. People never saw anything wrong with the blindbot, except that it was The only elementalist you could run in competitive GvG. But, considering it will never come back (mainly because it's too easy to strip enchants now) what could be done to the current ele, setting the MBlast issue aside?

----------

I also saw a lot of people talk about Natural Stride on this thread. See, natty stride does two things: it's a speed boost and a defensive stance. Blinding Surge does two things: it's shutdown and raw damage. Weapon of Remedy does two things: steals life and removes a condition. Eviscerate does two things: big domage and a deep wound.

What's the difference between these skills? Natty stride isn't elite. I'm stretching it, but I'm certain you can see my point.

Vaga · Mar 05, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Blind bot wasn't really the only thing you could run in competitive GvG... it was pretty common to run air/water hybrids with heal party as well, even blind bots were air/earth with heal party. If you read Gus' post he suggests buffing eprod and nerfing rend touch, which are the two main reasons why you can't run eprod atm (probably wouldn't want to anyway, more efficient ways to do things). There's always been a ton of stripping of eprod, thats why good teams ended up giving cover enchants and what not so that their ele didn't get dominated.

Also, that's largely the point with nat stride. It is great bar compression and you don't really sacrifice anything for it. It probably isn't terribly broken, however I think that it was much better when rangers couldn't have pretty much everything they want using 7 skill slots and they actually had to sacrifice something or run 8 skills. Kaon also raised the good point about the 50% block that really adds a huge random factor to skirmish play.

DutchSmurf · Mar 05, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I also saw a lot of people talk about Natural Stride on this thread. See, natty stride does two things: it's a speed boost and a defensive stance. Blinding Surge does two things: it's shutdown and raw damage. Weapon of Remedy does two things: steals life and removes a condition. Eviscerate does two things: big domage and a deep wound.

What's the difference between these skills? Natty stride isn't elite. I'm stretching it, but I'm certain you can see my point.

Because your examples don't make sense. Blinding Surge does some damage, but that isn't why you are using it, neither is the damage high enough to be a real factor. WoR is a heal that removes a condition, just like many other spells out there. Deep Wound and big damage are basically the same thing. Natural Stride isn't elite, but for the effect it gives it would almost deserve to be one. Before we got Natural Stride you always had to choose. If you had both a speedboost and a block on your bar, you could never use both at the same time. Now you get your block and your speedboost in 1 skill.

About the Gale discussion, I think the Gale suggestion was one of the least important ones in the OP. Before we start thinking about what to do with it (and if we have to do something with it), we better first see what happens after the rest of the issues get addressed.

wuzzman · Mar 05, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Look, dervs take less skill to play than warriors, so warriors should be better than dervishes in the hands of a skilled player. Assassins take less skill than warriors, warriors should be better than assassins in the hands of a skilled player. Until a balance update changes the fact that dervishes and assassins take no skill to play, they should not be viable in high level gvg.

No one has been able to come up with anyway to make assassins and dervishes viable frontliners whilst taking skill to play, so Gus' proposal is that they be nerfed out of play until ANet can better figure out how to balance them in PvP.

Unfortuantly for all you guys who love diversity and a bit of build wars, 99% of the skills are poorly designed in Guild Wars. So if only the well designed skills that take skill to use are viable, there isn't going to be a whole lot of diversity.

Guild Wars isn't going to be around forever, in fact it might already have died. We don't have time to spend another year or more playing in random metagames Izzy makes to see if there might be a better way to play/balance the game than gale warriors, edenial mes' etc...

Gale on warriors would be fine as Kaon and Neo have said.

the problem is warriors ARE better then dervishes, and e-denial and gale warriors are NOT in the same category. E-denial taking skill, gale can be hit on recharge at 5 energy... warriors are STILL better then assassins, which is why all they can really do is gank and once shroud of silence is nerfed then there isn't much to the sin split anymore. and nothing but super buffing ether prodigy would convince people to bother with the eprod/heal party shit. Because Woh/RC backlines will not save you, which is why even more blockwars is needed. No different then sod/lod won't save a you, once LoD is done your shit out of luck. Which is my blockwars was needed then.

This thread scores an A for just being plain lazy.

xhappy feetx · Mar 05, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

In other news, Dervspike is getting nerfed tommorow.

TaCktiX · Mar 05, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

It is no argument that the four new classes are completely broken. Their mechanics broke the skill > time paradigm that Prophecies had carefully cultivated. Anyone who debates this fact is a fool.

So how do you fix those classes? How about look at a class's weaknesses that force it into a particular (broken and degenerate) role?

Assassin:

Dagger damage just plain sucks. Yes, it's to keep from having auto-attack + spike-from-hell, but it forces any and all Assassins wishing to do anything into instagib bars. Buff dagger damage to just below a sword (say, 10-20), DEBUFF +damage skills. Buff or keep the same condition-causing chain attacks. This encourages ranger-like utility play while discouraging the Zomg-Blades-of-Steel instagib combo's.

A sin on the front line without an attack chain in progress is a sin soon to die. Forces sins to bring rather imbalanced skills like Critical Defenses and Way of Perfection. Yes, they both depend on Criticals, but a sin is designed to Crit. Buff a sin's passive defense capability aside from requiring Nightstalker insignia on all pieces. Don't increase their AL, but Ranger-like stances and Monk-like enchantments that last a long time (long duration, long recharge) that make it less likely for them to just plain die would help.

Shadowstepping is the only way to survive for a sin. Routes back to the dead-sin-in-frontline problem. With the buffs to passive defense, put an aftercast on shadowsteps (can't instagib, have to wait a second, making it harder for a sin to get an unprotted spike unless the rest of his team is helping out). And maybe add an inherent ability of Shadow Arts that gives a small +health for shadowstepping? Shadow Arts is the Sin's survival line. Encouraging atting into it would also encourage more utility play.

Bottom Line: Encourage utility, discourage spike, upgrade survivability, downgrade shadowstepping.

Ritualist:

Spirits don't move. At least, unless you bring Draw Spirit. So the Rit can't take his army with him. That allows any Joe Player worth a snuff to just avoid the Rit's spirits, nerfing the Rit's ability to do anything if he takes a spirit role. Why not slightly buff spirit movement to be a little variable? Think Wailing Lord and Banshee moving around variable. They're still stuck in a small area (I'd say Nearby range from point of summoning), but at least they're not AoE magnets. I dunno, addressing the spirit role (a critical part of the Rit profession, considering that it's primary profession directly relates to Spirits) is a tough one.

Weapon Spells, the mechanic, has got to be the LEAST broken thing about the new classes. ANet almost did it right. They can't stack, they can't be removed. Fairly worthy compromise. The thing ANet has done wrong is just how powerful some weapon spells are (Splinter Weapon anyone?). Nerf the damage for some, nerf the duration for others. Weapon Spells are pretty damn close to where they should be, make the last push with some balancing.

Channeling Magic is broken. To keep the Rit from being a cheap version of an Air Ele, damage was blown way out of proportion. Spirit Rift is still gigantic damage. Ancestor's Rage is overkill. Heck, nearly every AoE form of Channeling Magic is way too much damage. With the Rit Spike nerf single-target spells were brought into line, but the AoE ones were left with half-nerfs that didn't fix the problem. Instead of raw massive damage with a few conditions, why not do more things like Essence Strike and Spirit Boon Strike? Mediocre damage, but utility useful to the Rit.

Restoration Magic just sucks. I'm sure there are a lot of arena Rits who will disagree, but it sucks. Raw heal << Monk prot. Weapon of Remedy is a fantastic example of what Restoration Magic COULD be. More protection elements (life steal for WoR, condition removal), less uber-heal that takes far too long to cast if you're trying to forestall a spike. Aim for a middle ground between Monk Heal and Prot with Restoration. Then it might be desirable instead of degenerate.

Bottom Line: Fix spirits, give Weapon Spells that last little push, encourage Channeling utility instead of spike degeneracy, make Restoration more comparable to a monk's superior capabilities.

I'll post the other two later, have class to get to right now.

Boogz · Mar 05, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

It is no argument that the four new classes are completely broken. Their mechanics broke the skill > time paradigm that Prophecies had carefully cultivated. Anyone who debates this fact is a fool.

So how do you fix those classes? How about look at a class's weaknesses that force it into a particular (broken and degenerate) role?

Assassin:

Dagger damage just plain sucks. Yes, it's to keep from having auto-attack + spike-from-hell, but it forces any and all Assassins wishing to do anything into instagib bars. Buff dagger damage to just below a sword (say, 10-20), DEBUFF +damage skills. Buff or keep the same condition-causing chain attacks. This encourages ranger-like utility play while discouraging the Zomg-Blades-of-Steel instagib combo's.

A sin on the front line without an attack chain in progress is a sin soon to die. Forces sins to bring rather imbalanced skills like Critical Defenses and Way of Perfection. Yes, they both depend on Criticals, but a sin is designed to Crit. Buff a sin's passive defense capability aside from requiring Nightstalker insignia on all pieces. Don't increase their AL, but Ranger-like stances and Monk-like enchantments that last a long time (long duration, long recharge) that make it less likely for them to just plain die would help.

Shadowstepping is the only way to survive for a sin. Routes back to the dead-sin-in-frontline problem. With the buffs to passive defense, put an aftercast on shadowsteps (can't instagib, have to wait a second, making it harder for a sin to get an unprotted spike unless the rest of his team is helping out). And maybe add an inherent ability of Shadow Arts that gives a small +health for shadowstepping? Shadow Arts is the Sin's survival line. Encouraging atting into it would also encourage more utility play.

Bottom Line: Encourage utility, discourage spike, upgrade survivability, downgrade shadowstepping.

Ritualist:

Spirits don't move. At least, unless you bring Draw Spirit. So the Rit can't take his army with him. That allows any Joe Player worth a snuff to just avoid the Rit's spirits, nerfing the Rit's ability to do anything if he takes a spirit role. Why not slightly buff spirit movement to be a little variable? Think Wailing Lord and Banshee moving around variable. They're still stuck in a small area (I'd say Nearby range from point of summoning), but at least they're not AoE magnets. I dunno, addressing the spirit role (a critical part of the Rit profession, considering that it's primary profession directly relates to Spirits) is a tough one.

Weapon Spells, the mechanic, has got to be the LEAST broken thing about the new classes. ANet almost did it right. They can't stack, they can't be removed. Fairly worthy compromise. The thing ANet has done wrong is just how powerful some weapon spells are (Splinter Weapon anyone?). Nerf the damage for some, nerf the duration for others. Weapon Spells are pretty damn close to where they should be, make the last push with some balancing.

Channeling Magic is broken. To keep the Rit from being a cheap version of an Air Ele, damage was blown way out of proportion. Spirit Rift is still gigantic damage. Ancestor's Rage is overkill. Heck, nearly every AoE form of Channeling Magic is way too much damage. With the Rit Spike nerf single-target spells were brought into line, but the AoE ones were left with half-nerfs that didn't fix the problem. Instead of raw massive damage with a few conditions, why not do more things like Essence Strike and Spirit Boon Strike? Mediocre damage, but utility useful to the Rit.

Restoration Magic just sucks. I'm sure there are a lot of arena Rits who will disagree, but it sucks. Raw heal << Monk prot. Weapon of Remedy is a fantastic example of what Restoration Magic COULD be. More protection elements (life steal for WoR, condition removal), less uber-heal that takes far too long to cast if you're trying to forestall a spike. Aim for a middle ground between Monk Heal and Prot with Restoration. Then it might be desirable instead of degenerate.

Bottom Line: Fix spirits, give Weapon Spells that last little push, encourage Channeling utility instead of spike degeneracy, make Restoration more comparable to a monk's superior capabilities.

I'll post the other two later, have class to get to right now.

wow , just wow
you really have excellent arguments , wich are way better than the "NERF RITS ZOMFG" "NERF INSTAGIBS ZOMFG" , i agree with every single suggestion that you've made , the spirits should be able to move somehow , since they are extremly easy to kill , more than 50% of restoration magic skills is just plain bad. you also forgot the big issue with Spawing Power , wich is by far the weakest attribute in GW

Byron · Mar 05, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

The frontline sin was, I think, moderated by garbage skills like flashing blades and critical defenses. Their lack of reliabe IAS was moderated by their "double strike" mechanic. But people quickly realized that if a sin can't take an attack elite or a strong combo, they aren't worth much as far as reliable damage.

Gale is fine. Don't tell me it wasn't over powered before.

Derv spike wouldn't be so bad were it prot-able. I recall previous versions of derv spike with shadow walk and melandru dervs being good but not unprot-able. Grenth's aura is the chief problem, imo. Get rid of that and the build just becomes tele euro-spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

No different then sod/lod won't save a you, once LoD is done your shit out of luck. Which is my blockwars was needed then

This had more to do with VoD changes, as does the current meta. The gvg community decided as a whole that it's better to play defensive and have at least an even keel for VoD.

Greedy Gus · Mar 05, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Gale is fine. Don't tell me it wasn't over powered before.

It seems bizarre to me that people who we know didn't play high level GvG 2 years ago feel fine weighing in on how overpowered things were back then, whereas the people who actually were GvGing say they were fine and desirable.

TaCktiX · Mar 05, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

If spirits get buffed to usefulness, then Spawning Power will be more relevant other than "wow, my spirit lasts 1 more second against the Teinei's Heat." I reserve any statement on Spawning Power for now.

Paragon:

Earshot range is a b****. It reduces class split-ability while encouraging straight-on 8v8 blockweb play. Echoes are too short and rely on "zomg, a chant ended!" to get re-application. ONLY when Echoes get re-applied are they worth the cost. Same with Refrains (including that Aggressive one that refuses to go away). Buff duration of echoes and chants, remove in any form re-application.

Make fewer chants and shouts require so much adrenaline, it limits the Paragon's ability to help his party in a split scenario, because chucking a spear 4 times just to be able to hit "GFTE!" or "Watch Yourself!" is begging for a bogged-down meta. And limit how many shouts can be stacked. It's really irritating to other teams to have "Watch Yourself!", Defensive Anthem, Mending Refrain, and "Shields Up!" on the entire team with no real penalty. Bogged down 8v8 play is boring, this is a well known fact. Splitting out, collapsing, and requiring active intelligent play is fun to play, fun to watch, much healthier for the game.

Spear damage is too high. I can understand 80AL considering the class's adrenaline basis, but a better-than-a-sword ranged auto-attack? Rangers can't even begin to parallel that, especially because of the ubiquity of Aggressive Refrain. Range and rate of (normal) attack are not the issue, a Paragon has 80AL. It's the damage caused. It rewards chucking at any random target, discourages meaningful positioning. Another case of skill < time that the new classes have brought in.

Motivation is a weak line. You can't partly att into Motivation. It's all or nothing, and then you're weak at nearly everything else. So either you're a mediocre party healer, or you contribute no Motivation at all. Fix Motivation to be a strong line at the 6 or 9 att breakpoints. 14 should not be required to make the line worth something. Couple this with a nerf to active shouts/chants, and the buff in effectiveness would not make SoR paras unstoppable.

Bottom Line: Echoes aren't worth it they force 8v8 Blockweb, Shouts require too much but are far too powerful when stacked, Spears need a damage knock, Motivation is demotivating.

Dzan · Mar 05, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

It seems bizarre to me that people who we know didn't play high level GvG 2 years ago feel fine weighing in on how overpowered things were back then, whereas the people who actually were GvGing say they were fine and desirable.

Agreed, Gale was then like Bull's Strike is considered now: a skill that gets better the better the player using it is. Every guild back in the day practiced "Gale locking" targets iQ style, but not every guild could do it in a real match the way iQ could.

It was definitely an indicator of skill, and it was why you saw teams back in the day where a top 20 guild would roll a 100-200 level guild in 3 minutes everytime whereas now a days with the low-skill bars we bring even a mediocre guild can at least hang with a good guild for some time.

Blackout was the same way: when spammed on recharge it was annoying but not especially awful, but in the hands of a good ranger, it could be as devastating as Broad Head Arrow was in eF's eurohex build in terms of pushing a team past the breaking point and causing a route. I see no reason why skills of this nature shouldn't be encourged, and contrary skills discouraged.

The only danger is buffing these skills so much that they become mindlessly good, which would make them no different than, say, Natural Stride.

Uetzcayotl · Mar 05, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

If spirits get buffed to usefulness, then Spawning Power will be more relevant other than "wow, my spirit lasts 1 more second against the Teinei's Heat." I reserve any statement on Spawning Power for now.

Paragon:

Earshot range is a b****. It reduces class split-ability while encouraging straight-on 8v8 blockweb play. Echoes are too short and rely on "zomg, a chant ended!" to get re-application. ONLY when Echoes get re-applied are they worth the cost. Same with Refrains (including that Aggressive one that refuses to go away). Buff duration of echoes and chants, remove in any form re-application.

Make fewer chants and shouts require so much adrenaline, it limits the Paragon's ability to help his party in a split scenario, because chucking a spear 4 times just to be able to hit "GFTE!" or "Watch Yourself!" is begging for a bogged-down meta. And limit how many shouts can be stacked. It's really irritating to other teams to have "Watch Yourself!", Defensive Anthem, Mending Refrain, and "Shields Up!" on the entire team with no real penalty. Bogged down 8v8 play is boring, this is a well known fact. Splitting out, collapsing, and requiring active intelligent play is fun to play, fun to watch, much healthier for the game.

Spear damage is too high. I can understand 80AL considering the class's adrenaline basis, but a better-than-a-sword ranged auto-attack? Rangers can't even begin to parallel that, especially because of the ubiquity of Aggressive Refrain. Range and rate of (normal) attack are not the issue, a Paragon has 80AL. It's the damage caused. It rewards chucking at any random target, discourages meaningful positioning. Another case of skill < time that the new classes have brought in.

Motivation is a weak line. You can't partly att into Motivation. It's all or nothing, and then you're weak at nearly everything else. So either you're a mediocre party healer, or you contribute no Motivation at all. Fix Motivation to be a strong line at the 6 or 9 att breakpoints. 14 should not be required to make the line worth something. Couple this with a nerf to active shouts/chants, and the buff in effectiveness would not make SoR paras unstoppable.

Bottom Line: Echoes aren't worth it they force 8v8 Blockweb, Shouts require too much but are far too powerful when stacked, Spears need a damage knock, Motivation is demotivating.

Leadership is still pretty broken - it still does not scale well in small party sizes and still gives near infinite energy. I suggest to scale it so it returns 1 energy for every 3 points in leadership, so at 12 leadership, it gives 4 energy with 4 party members.

As suggested before, remove the IAS and Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain, and give it +25% adrenaline instead.

Perhaps make chants work like "For 10 seconds, target ally and all (adjacent allies, nearby allies, allies in the area) ..." so instead of just spamming chants on recharge, the paragon would have to be target and be more aware of his party members. Of course, this will probably reduce energy return from Leadership and make it harder to keep refrains up, so the cost and effect of chants and echoes would need to be modified.

Oh, and kill Shield's Up. Thanks.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

These responses are appalling. You guys completely ignore what I'm saying and resort to straw man arguments.

Quote:

While it may be great to say that all classes need to be viable and balanced, this is far from happening. As a direct result of poor desigen and mechanics Rits, Sins, Paragons and Dervishes have ruined guildwars. Izzy very much takes your viewpoint that all classes need to be used in high-level GvG. Each time one of these professions ends up in the game its under a broken template.

That's the damn point. Figure out how to make them balanced so they don't have to be a broken template. I never claimed I knew exactly how, I'm just pointing out it needs to be done.

Quote:

Their strategies are almost entirely spike-based, as each of the professions was designed with over-powered damage skills compared to their predecessors. Neo isn't being close minded, he's being honest. Warriors were well designed, skillful and deep as a profession. Deep wounds require adrenaline build-up while each of the other classes spam them on recharge Or in a 3,2,1 punch.: See pious assault, Augury of Death, Wearying Strike, impale, TF combos.

Those are basically Nightfall problems. Assassins weren't really broken in Factions. As already said before, remove their reliance on spike-based skills and encourage other factors such as high movement and utility that Warriors lack in comparison. Those are the stepping stones to balancing Assassins.

Quote:

Assuming everyone is lazy does nothing to sway anyone to your point of view and makes you look silly. Try using concrete examples as to how and why each class has to viable, instead of resorted to using close minded and laziness as the backbone as to why your view is more informed.

If you weren't so lazy you would have put more thought into what I've said. People are lazy (in general) because they want new classes nerfed out of existence instead of finding reasonable ways to make them balanced. I thought that was pretty damn clear but I guess not. I don't know exactly what skills need to be changed, but I do know (and I've said many times) that the Assassin's superior split skills could be what attracts them over Warriors. As long as splitting isn't so heavily favored then it will be balanced.

Quote:

What might we be missing out on? Since creation i haven't seen one positive contribution any of these classes have brought. Provide specific examples as to what they've added that is good for the game.

Quit spamming your pseudo-intelligence. Read the damn thread instead of taking everything I've said out of context. He claimed there was nothing new classes could add to the frontline so i responded by saying there's no way to possibly know what we're missing out on.

Quote:

No one has been able to come up with anyway to make assassins and dervishes viable frontliners whilst taking skill to play, so Gus' proposal is that they be nerfed out of play until ANet can better figure out how to balance them in PvP.

Ok, and for every Gus there's 10 others who claim assassins should just be nerfed out of existence period. Those are the people I'm mainly arguing with. I'm also pointing out how incompatible Gus's arguments are. If we give Gale to Warriors, and Warriors are already the end-all-be-all of frontliners, then Assassins and Dervishes will have an even tougher time coming back. How many times do I have to say this?

Gale is already a great skill. It could be reverted back to 3 seconds and I will have no problem with this. Just keep Gale off Warriors because they don't need to be even better than they already are. (by the way that my main friggin point and NOBODY has addressed that)

EDIT:

Quote:

Quite honestly, I don't know anybody who has played this game since the beginning who wouldn't want to go back to Prophecies only. The new classes ruined Guild Wars. There is no doubt about it in the eyes of the informed.

You guys are all bitching at me for requesting the new classes to be balanced, and yet advocate such ridiculous notions that we should go back to Prophecies only. Get real. Anet will balance new classes before they get rid of them. They will never resort to removing Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. I choose the more realistic option that classes should be balanced instead of removed. It's not that I like the new classes, it's that I'm smart enough to recognize this game has changed so much from earlier times that realistically we cannot go back.

ensoriki · Mar 05, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

kill thumper n/rt combo >.<

Kaon · Mar 05, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

The new classes debate has been taken on time and time again, and even recently in JR's ritualist and assassin topic. The general conclusion there was that those classes are inherently flawed and it will be almost impossible to find a good role for them.

IF izzy manages to find a good role for them i'm more than happy, however chances that this happens (if it's even possible) are incredibly small. Therefore nerfing them out of existance is the most realistic and best improvement that could happen.

Also I find it funny how people say that buffing gale makes them more powerful over other frontliners. My question is: What other frontliners? The warrior has always been the only frontliner in the game. A dervish is nothing more but a mindless spiking tree, it has nothing to do with frontline. Again people either don't read my posts or are too stupid or narrowminded to understand the arguments.

So far I haven't seen a single good argument against buffing gale.

moriz · Mar 05, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

buffing gale to 3 sec KD: good
buffing gale to 3 sec KD and 5 energy: definately no.

Popo · Mar 05, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The new classes debate has been taken on time and time again, and even recently in JR's ritualist and assassin topic. The general conclusion there was that those classes are inherently flawed and it will be almost impossible to find a good role for them.

IF izzy manages to find a good role for them i'm more than happy, however chances that this happens (if it's even possible) are incredibly small. Therefore nerfing them out of existance is the most realistic and best improvement that could happen.

Also I find it funny how people say that buffing gale makes them more powerful over other frontliners. My question is: What other frontliners? The warrior has always been the only frontliner in the game. A dervish is nothing more but a mindless spiking tree, it has nothing to do with frontline. Again people either don't read my posts or are too stupid or narrowminded to understand the arguments.

So far I haven't seen a single good argument against buffing gale.

I haven't seen a single good argument FOR buffing Gale enough that Warriors should have them. You are trying to get the change done so it is your job to convince others. And address the actual point. Why do Warrior need to be more powerful than they already are?

Nerfing new classes out of existence isn't realistic. That's foolish. They aren't going to nerf two expansions worth of money.

TaCktiX · Mar 05, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uetzcayotl

Leadership is still pretty broken - it still does not scale well in small party sizes and still gives near infinite energy. I suggest to scale it so it returns 1 energy for every 3 points in leadership, so at 12 leadership, it gives 4 energy with 4 party members.

As suggested before, remove the IAS and Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain, and give it +25% adrenaline instead.

Perhaps make chants work like "For 10 seconds, target ally and all (adjacent allies, nearby allies, allies in the area) ..." so instead of just spamming chants on recharge, the paragon would have to be target and be more aware of his party members. Of course, this will probably reduce energy return from Leadership and make it harder to keep refrains up, so the cost and effect of chants and echoes would need to be modified.

Oh, and kill Shield's Up. Thanks.

Yes, Leadership is broken, but it's only broken when 8v8 bog-down play is encouraged. You could lower the energy cap that a Paragon gets from Leadership, yes, but putting up 8 Mending Refrains then spamming Anthem of Flame on recharge isn't that hard, and more than maintainable. And I think the conditions for Chants and Shouts right now are fine, but being able to stack as many unremovable ones as you want is what's broken. Penalize spam, reward skilled use. For instance, if you could have either "Shield's Up!" or "Watch Yourself!", but not both, which one would a person pick? That's tactical strategy and skill. Cap the number of shouts a person can have on them and Leadership is a non-issue.

Dervish:

The Form elites suck. Say that Melandru dervish is overpowered, the new (and old) Grenth is ridiculous, and that Lyssa's damage bonus is overkill. They suck purely because you can't maintain them. Half the time you have a purpose-set killing machine, the other half of the time you have dead weight. That's a really crummy balancing mechanism. Buff duration of Forms, DEBUFF how powerful they are (+75hp/remove conditions on each attack skill use for Melandru).

All other Dervish elites suck when not used with a spike or a gimmick. Wounding Strike is a great source of Deep Wound...if there's a ton of damage going on the target at the same time. Wearying/Pious are great, if you can uber-spike with other stuff afterwards. Pious Renewal and Arcane Zeal are sweet energy management...if you're dedicated to healing an arena-sized party. While trying so hard to build the Dervish around enchantments, the elites were either born for spikes, or born for gimmicks. Alter mechanics a bit and make them interesting and do-able in a balanced setting.

Scythe damage varies far too much. The best spiking weapon in the game, or the worst thing since Daggers. That's too much variance. The scythe is either too powerful, or too weak to make any difference. If anything else forces a Dervish into spiking roles, it's the fact that they only get decent damage output when their scythe crits. Narrow the range to something like a cross between a sword and a hammer (14-35).

The class "relies" on enchantments. More like it relies on somebody else's enchantments because the only way for a Dervish to have killing power is 5 scythe attacks, a rez, an IAS, and a speed boost. Zero utility, zero room for the class's "designed" role as an enchanted fighter for the gods. Mysticism is either severely broken (read: Dervish healing gimmicks) or seriously underpowered (oh wow, Heart of Fury just ended, and I now have 7 energy instead of 3!). Cap out the energy gain a la Soul Reaping nerf, and buff the lower range. Or redesign the attribute to give a reduction in cost for enchantments instead of raw energy. Something to fix Mysticism's wild variance between suck and broke.

Bottom Line: Forms are overpowered and underpowered, all other Elites force degenerate play, Scythe damage varies too much, enchantments cause either brokenness or suckiness, not a middle ground.