Curse

Akaraxle · Mar 04, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

You could look at it the other way, in that icy ground hasn't been threatening enough. So now you may have the mindset that ranged KDs are too powerful on frozen ground, and that frozen isle is supposed to be a giant map where you easily run everywhere on. But surely you wouldn't complain that getting galed while running circles in the lava is too brutal.

Hmm, I guess I omitted that I was reasoning in the eventuality that Gale was buffed back to 3s knockdown.

Icy Ground and KDs are a VERY strong combination, to the point that having more KDs in your build than the opponent's team can win you a game. It changes most of your team's tactics to work around that very feature: KD on ice to stop a splitter, KD on ice to prevent the enemy team from retreating (so much that your team needs to start retreating much earlier than the usual danger zone, unless you have a way to reliably prevent such KDs and snares), KD on ice to get an almost granted boost.
What I'm guessing you were bothered with when you wrote this reply was sinsplit and byob, but... isn't it more of a problem with NPC wars, the templates themselves and the power of certain speedboosts - some of which you mentioned in the first post - than with the ease of running around?

It's probably never going to change, but I've always wanted Icy Ground to be less brutal and game-critical. Some light number tweak such as 50% snare instead of 70% or 4s instead of 5s would make me less bothered by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

How is this different than what happens today? If a flagrunner pushes over the ice he faces shock bullstrike and gale (if opponent has an air or fire ele). He simply won't make it unless he gets stability or runs the long way. It's always been like that and a 5e gale doesn't change ANYTHING.

What it does change is that it now gives warriors the ability to snare lone people on the ice in split. Something only eles and rangers were allowed to do. Again I argue that this is only beneficial for the game because it forces people to coördinate what they do and brings warriors on par with rangers and elementalists. Besides that even if the warrior gales you you're not dead yet because the warrior himself gets stuck on the ice as well. Deaths charge bullstrike is FAR more powerful in frozen isle, hence why all (good) byob warriors use it.

I think the whole point of warriors is NOT having strong ranged attacks. Suddenly being able to use a long-distance snare should yield a hefty penalty, which is why you don't see warriors swapping to a bow for cripshot or casting water snares. You probable have a nicer, more colorful idea of the class but I'm still tied to the concept that warriors should be as easy to shutdown/evade as they are strong at killing shit when supported.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

Umm is gale affected by Stonefist Insignias? Just thinking about it because thought I did read somewhere that because it has been stated to KD for 2 secs, it doesn't get effect from Stonefist's. Not sure, but if it is so, 5e version of current gale wouldn't be too good compared to shock or any other KD.

Yes, it is.

Cass · Mar 04, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

He wasn't just using conjecture, plenty of us played with gale wars and they were fine (after fixing negative exhaustion). People also used to use shock in certain cases instead of even 5e gale.

I did not suggest that he was. I also played with Gale. After fixing the exhaustion, Shock was still rarely taken in my expierence.

Quote:

Instead of reading the bullet point, and trying to figure out on your own what the change seems like, just read the paragraph below where I gave specific reasoning.

None of the reasoning you pointed at was sufficiently convincing to me. You can leave it at that if you like. You're the one trying to make a convincing case for changes though.

Quote:

RaO is already affected by expertise. Expertise affected stances for years and it worked fine (even better, it was good for the game to have distortion there). We don't have to guess on these things or fear some unknown. I seriously question your ability to take part in a higher level balance discussion.

Ah, RAO is a skill, not a stance. My bad. I guess there is not much threat that stances could become overpowered when expertise makes them very cheap, after all.

Still, I don't see why you think Distortion was so cool. It was the default self-prot for several classes, as it was simply a sort of self-SoD that cannot be shattered and has no cast time. Wild blow would see more play again I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

That is not the main point of what I said, which you are totally ignoring. A 5e gale isn't that much better than shock, it just allows for many more tactical possibilities.

What sort of tactical play does a ranged KD offer, other than snaring a lot of stuff on ice? I just don't see how Gale will open up more 'tactical deepness'.

I Angra I · Mar 04, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Great post, pretty much agree with everything in the OP.

I think the biggest problem skill in the game right now is GoLE (mend touch, among others, follows closely after though).

It allows super defense in skillbars that couldn't support it otherwise, mostly ward on mesmers/bsurge eles and cancel casting aegis on monks. Before if you wanted a ward, it basically had to be on an ele, and that ele was generally a utility character. Now rather than that, you can spec another completely offensive character (paragon, mind blast ele, third warrior) and only need to sacrifice two skillslots on the mesmer instead.

If even just for one of those "test weeks", I'd really like to see a lot of the OP's skill suggestions implemented to see what comes out of it.

Kaon · Mar 04, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

What sort of tactical play does a ranged KD offer, other than snaring a lot of stuff on ice? I just don't see how Gale will open up more 'tactical deepness'.

It makes warriors much more dangerous and versatile, therefore allowing more, better, and more complicated split strategies that include collapsing and well coördinated gale locks.

And it gives them a ranged interrupt that allows them to save teammates. Gale is a skill that becomes exponentially more effective the better the overview of the warrior is.

Neo-LD · Mar 04, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Still, I don't see why you think Distortion was so cool.

I'd be interested to hear about that as well. I remember being distinctly pleased when Distortion got killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

What sort of tactical play does a ranged KD offer?

Are you kidding? Ranged KDs are practically the definition of tactical play. Whether as cast-time denial, interrupt, snare, on splits, in full-scale battles, while flag-pushing... wow, just wow. I cannot believe you just asked that.

Kaon · Mar 04, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I'd be interested to hear about that as well. I remember being distinctly pleased when Distortion got killed.

Distortion was a key ranger skill that made 1v1 cripshot fights good. Gus handled rangers very well in his post. With the current condition removal, its very easy to escape from other criprangers, but when there's a warrior falling on you as well it means you have to get out STRAIGHT AWAY. A dshot on cripshot provides that, and often even a savage so you can dodge the next one. Distortion prevented such dshots and therefore made the game a lot more dangerous.

Natural stride is a 50% block which is the worst percentage in the game. It's a coinflip that guarantees no certainty. With distortion at least you knew you werent going to get your cripshot dshot, and probably not your unguent either.

Whether the role of fixing 50% block should be taken by distortion is arguable. Perhaps they could make natural stride do 75% block, or force rangers to run another stance. A rework of Dodge would be a very interesting idea.

pah01 · Mar 04, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Distortion was a key ranger skill that made 1v1 cripshot fights good. Gus handled rangers very well in his post. With the current condition removal, its very easy to escape from other criprangers, but when there's a warrior falling on you as well it means you have to get out STRAIGHT AWAY. A dshot on cripshot provides that, and often even a savage so you can dodge the next one. Distortion prevented such dshots and therefore made the game a lot more dangerous.

Natural stride is a 50% block which is the worst percentage in the game. It's a coinflip that guarantees no certainty. With distortion at least you knew you werent going to get your cripshot dshot, and probably not your unguent either.

Whether the role of fixing 50% block should be taken by distortion is arguable. Perhaps they could make natural stride do 75% block, or force rangers to run another stance. A rework of Dodge would be a very interesting idea.

I think that doing this (reworking dodge) would be better than bringing distortion back. Distortion was too good on casters. For that reason I partially agree with Neo. However I can see exactly where Gus and Kaon are comng from and agree in principle.

Joe

Joe

Vanquisher · Mar 04, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

When Distortion got nerfed, it was the right idea. Unfortunately the change killed it as a skill, rather than downgrading the ridiculous power it held.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

GAt the OP: Some of the suggested changes regarding boon prots just seem like yearning for old times (I played this too btw), without actual gameplay benefits. Why would we want boonprots back?

Expertise should not affect stances. It would surely open another can of worms similar to degenerate crap like touchers and thumpers. RAO at 12e? No. I also don't see how a short stance like distortion would be more fun than the less powerful (-25%block, ends on hex/ench) but longer lasting nat stride. Timing the stance is a tactical choice IMO.

There isn't any reason to bring diversion down to 5 seconds. 6 seconds is a nice and brief window. Good for interesting play and good for potential removal or natural wear-off. This is not a boring nec hex like faintheartedness that lasts forever. Do you want to shorten it just for the sake of nerfing?

Boon Prots allowed for more versatile play than any other Monk template that has been seen in the game.
Thumpers weren't as bad as everyone seems to think.
Nat Stride has always been problematic ever since it came into the game.
Diversion would be far better suited at higher cost, shorter cast, higher recharge. Were that the case, it would encourage better timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz L Dazzle

I'd suggest that the old HP flagger was really the optimal form of party healing. It allowed for diverse strategic options rather than diverse skill options. I think a 10 energy 2 second cast HP might be a good direction. Song of Restoration, Pwk, HB/HP bars would need to be nerfed along with new divine healing bars. Some other buffs and changes would be needed but i think party healing should have a distinct postion in the meta-game. Too many skill options isn't making the game better. LoD meta would be the other preferable choice depending on which game-style would work the best.

Heal Party needed a longer recharge so it couldn't just be pumped out forever and a day. Pressure, while viable when people ran Party, was quite difficult to pull off if the Ele using it had decent enough awareness to cancel a couple of times a game, communicate with their team, and sort out their positioning. Not that you couldn't beat the Party, you just needed really damn good Warriors. But yeah, a slightly longer recharge would have been the optimal change to Party Healing, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I can't believe how incredibly overrated gale-warriors are. In an 8v8 fight gale is only slightly stronger. Shock deals damage has a shorter activation time, and is not a spell. Only in split it is more powerful, which is a good thing!

Comparing this to old gale warriors there now is so much more stuff to take gale down: Better interface (making it interruptable now, back then this was hard!), stability, and MUCH better offmonk defense.

Also people forget that the really big nerf to gale was the fact that you couldn't get negative exhaustion anymore. I miss my galing 7times in a row on recharge.

Gale should've never been nerfed I say. And every skillbalance I secretely hope it gets buffed.

I'm not so sure I'd go that far. A 3 second Gale would be best, probably. 5 energy and it just gets abused the shit out of it by Warriors. I know that's what you're hoping for, but let's face it, you play Warrior quite often. 3 seconds meanwhile, makes it more powerful in the hands of Ele's and Mesmers, which is the more interesting prospect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

However, albeit compressing ele bars even more by making them take TWO energy managements rather than one, GoLE (along with NF elites) was what made NOT running Ether Prodigy possible. While EP was a "healthy" skill per se, it caused The elementalist's problem we've all discussed over the years: its sole purpose as an HP spammer with pin-point shutdown. The late elites gave a blast to a stagnant class, allowing for fresh templates to be played effectively, setting balance issues aside.
Now the question is: do we want to revert the Elementalist to its original blindbot template for the sake of the game?

I'd counter that with; the original blindbot template was quite a versatile character that allowed for good team diversity and, as everything should be, became better as player skill and team coordination improved.

Yue · Mar 04, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

distortion coming back would be kinda dumb

Almighty Zi · Mar 04, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Diversion would be far better suited at higher cost, shorter cast, higher recharge. Were that the case, it would encourage better timing.

I'd be against diversion being higher cost, 10 energy is fine imo. There seems to be quite a few mesmer skills that are overcosted atm (considering that most inspiration e-management skills, apart from p drain, are trash).

I'd also be against it having a shorter cast. A low specced diversion (25-30 sec disable) can be just as effective as one at 14 dom. I'd rather keep it at 3 seconds and keep it on mesmers.

If the skill is a little too powerful or synergises too well with certain other skills then by all means extend the recharge to encourage proper timing and less spam.

Almighty Zi · Mar 04, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

distortion coming back would be kinda dumb

I think the idea was to make a trade off - having a powerful condi removal vs a better chance that your crip shot or troll piss will resolve when you need it to. I agree that it shouldn't be brought back in its original form but it would be nice to have it playable and as an option/alternative.

Vanquisher · Mar 04, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almighty Zi

I'd be against diversion being higher cost, 10 energy is fine imo. There seems to be quite a few mesmer skills that are overcosted atm (considering that most inspiration e-management skills, apart from p drain, are trash).

I'd also be against it having a shorter cast. A low specced diversion (25-30 sec disable) can be just as effective as one at 14 dom. I'd rather keep it at 3 seconds and keep it on mesmers.

If the skill is a little too powerful or synergises too well with certain other skills then by all means extend the recharge to encourage proper timing and less spam.

Considering various Mesmer skills used for E-Management seriously need to be improved, it should realistically be fine at 15. Of course, that's if other skill updates are good enough to allow it.

Yue · Mar 04, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almighty Zi

I think the idea was to make a trade off - having a powerful condi removal vs a better chance that your crip shot or troll piss will resolve when you need it to. I agree that it shouldn't be brought back in its original form but it would be nice to have it playable and as an option/alternative.

It seems as if the case the OP was making was about making something other than the R/Mo be an alternative because of how strong mtouch was. Natural stride is actually a great skill, and if the power creep issue is with mtouch, then scale the condis removed or something rather than returning distortion fully to what it used to be. That opens alternatives such as R/A's, R/Me's, and etc.

moriz · Mar 04, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

or R/P's. remedy signet is frigging hot, if mending touch ceases to exist.

Popo · Mar 04, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

It makes warriors much more dangerous and versatile, therefore allowing more, better, and more complicated split strategies that include collapsing and well coördinated gale locks.

And it gives them a ranged interrupt that allows them to save teammates. Gale is a skill that becomes exponentially more effective the better the overview of the warrior is.

It also makes the Warrior (which is already an extremely powerful character) even better. It's unnecessary to buff Warriors to this extent especially considering how bitchy people are about the other frontline options.

Kaon · Mar 04, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

It also makes the Warrior (which is already an extremely powerful character) even better. It's unnecessary to buff Warriors to this extent especially considering how bitchy people are about the other frontline options.

First of all: Everyone runs warriors, so there is no group of people that gets a disadvantage except the gimmicks.
Secondly: Better? It makes them more equipped in tactical ability and split, not really when it comes to killing power in an 8v8.

How hard is it to get it into your head that gale at 5e would be good for the game? It doesn't change much in standfights but gives the game a HUGE boost in the variety of playstyles. The arguments are fairly easy to understand. I feel like some people are really too scared that something might be "too much." This is nonsense, as long as an update improves the game it doesn't matter whether a skill is overpowered.

moriz · Mar 04, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

warriors are never about pure killing power. if i want that, i'll just run assassins. what makes warriors the frontline of choice for many people is their ability to cause disruption. given a good player, that disruption can be gamebreakingly powerful.

and now... you want to give them MORE disruption. ranged disruption that that. not only it pushes the standard shock axe template (or gale axe template, if gale goes to 5 energy) into the overpowered spectrum, it also marginalizes midline disruption. after all, why run a mesmer, when a third warrior can pump out just as much disruption with more damage added on?

if you want a ranged warrior KD, use "coward!". it's plenty powerful on frozen isle already.

Vaga · Mar 04, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

It seems as if the case the OP was making was about making something other than the R/Mo be an alternative because of how strong mtouch was. Natural stride is actually a great skill, and if the power creep issue is with mtouch, then scale the condis removed or something rather than returning distortion fully to what it used to be. That opens alternatives such as R/A's, R/Me's, and etc.

No nat stride is part of the power creep. You don't have to make any decision at all as to what you want on your ranger bar. In the past you had to decide whether you want a speed buff, blackout, troll, distorsion etc...

Distorsion was annoying and maybe not the best solution but it would probably make the game better than it is right now.

ax mastery · Mar 04, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

warriors are never about pure killing power. if i want that, i'll just run assassins. what makes warriors the frontline of choice for many people is their ability to cause disruption. given a good player, that disruption can be gamebreakingly powerful.

and now... you want to give them MORE disruption. ranged disruption that that. not only it pushes the standard shock axe template (or gale axe template, if gale goes to 5 energy) into the overpowered spectrum, it also marginalizes midline disruption. after all, why run a mesmer, when a third warrior can pump out just as much disruption with more damage added on?

if you want a ranged warrior KD, use "coward!". it's plenty powerful on frozen isle already.

Coward is great for splits? Let's face it. Warriors suck shit compared nearly every other damage character on splits. Adrenaline is very limiting when your oponent opens up with an instigib combo. No one should be arguing against making warriors better for splitting.

As far as stand disruption, you all seem to be under the impression that knocklocks would become a terrible terrible problem. Changing out shock for gale wouldn't make knocklocks any more or less threatening at the stand. And for interuption, how much stuff can you honestly catch with a 1 second cast anyway?

moriz · Mar 04, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

coward is great for skirmishes on the ice surface. unlike most KDs, its instant cast will allow you to keep moving at the same time, which means that you won't also snare yourself.

as for the comment about KDs.... i think the game will be better if we do not go back to gale-lock days. a warrior's sphere of influence should go no farther than melee range. if you want a ranged KD on a warrior, either bite the bullet and use the current gale, or sacrifice your elite for coward.

warriors are powerful enough as it is. there's really no need to buff them.