Curse

Monk Gsb · Mar 03, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

[QUOTE=Kaon]If that is the case then we should never ever post balance threads again. [QUOTE]

QFT !!!!

im not saying the skill changes are a bad idear, infact i think it would boost the likliness of the "older" gamers ( ppl that quit GW's when the nf power creep came in) to come back to GW's.

izzy might listen to us, but by the time the skill changes are implemented (see the "recent" nerf of a skill that should have been nerfed a long ass time ago, "fear me!".) then the HA community would be a small group (200 or less in euro times) of PvErs fame farming for there r3/6/9 so they look teh koolness. and 1/2 of the halls games will be 1v1. oh w8, no, thats what it is now.... :|
and the people who are left GvGing are 50 or so from the current top 300 and they just play to try there luck at farming the monthy prizes.

Kyp Jade · Mar 03, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

...

then the HA community would be a small group (200 or less in euro times) of PvErs fame farming for there r3/6/9 so they look teh koolness. and 1/2 of the halls games will be 1v1. oh w8, no, thats what it is now.... :|

...

Uhmmmm, please stop exaggerating those numbers, theres 200 people? lol, I might skip less if there were 200 people. I've taken to logging earlier so I can play in euro times and I still get loads of skips. Its impossible to get any amount of fame after euros go to bed because you play UW, skip to halls, win a few times, and get ganked on your 5th HoH hold, but that would only have been 6 consec so even though you open the chest, you still dont make fame.

On topic, I still think All refrains should be reworked to be more like vital weapon. Long duration effects, but disruptable and definatly not permanent. But what can I talk about? I only run 3 paragons in my team.

Keithark · Mar 03, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Reduce/Remove Key Post-Nightfall Power Creep

Kill natural stride
Kill mending touch

Nerf avatar of melandru

Nerf rending touch

Revert Past Nerfs That Were Targetted Based on Popularity

Other avenues have been explored over a couple years, and the game is ready for these skills to be prominent again (or at least powered back up to be in contention as strategic options).

Bring blackout up: 3..6 duration, 4 sec self-disable
Bring gale back up: either 5e or 3s KD

Bring OoB back up
Bring inspiration back up (drain enchantment especially)
Revert ether prodigy damage nerf

Lower esurge/eburn damage, up e-denial
Strongly consider reverting esurge AoE nerf

[LIST]

So nerf rangers, dervs, and warriors and buff Mesmers? Humm.... what class do you play?

Kaon · Mar 03, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

So nerf rangers, dervs, and warriors and buff Mesmers? Humm.... what class do you play?

You're the kind that should stop posting in this thread as you're flooding the topic with nonsense. If you don't understand what he's saying don't post. If you want to debate about some individual changes that's fine, but if you don't grasp the concept don't even bother.

Akaraxle · Mar 03, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

The OP made a good, though utopic (won't ever happen, trust me) post. I won't digress on which points I agree or disagree on, but I'd like to spend a few words - as usual - on the Ele.

The cancel mechanic should be fixed, granted (perhaps by counting cancels as casts), and with that interrupts should be bumped up a little in recharge. GoLE's effectiveness for secondaries should be killed, making it close to useless with a -5 reduction @ 0 ES (thus saving a mere 5 energy every 30 seconds).
However, albeit compressing ele bars even more by making them take TWO energy managements rather than one, GoLE (along with NF elites) was what made NOT running Ether Prodigy possible. While EP was a "healthy" skill per se, it caused The elementalist's problem we've all discussed over the years: its sole purpose as an HP spammer with pin-point shutdown. The late elites gave a blast to a stagnant class, allowing for fresh templates to be played effectively, setting balance issues aside.
Now the question is: do we want to revert the Elementalist to its original blindbot template for the sake of the game?

A short paragraph about Gale: it's a great spell. I would like it to be 10e 3s knockdown, because if you played an Elementalist before the nerf you can really tell the difference between a "great, versatile" skill and an "awesome, must absolutely take" skill.
In my eyes, what seems to be the problem with Gale - and a handful of other Elementalist skills - is how it ends up being abused by Mesmers. GoE is the main culprit for it as it allows to circumvent the balanced mechanic of exhaustion, and the specific problem with Gale would disappear if it was killed.
Think about what happens with Ward of Melee though: perfectly counterable on an ele (once cancel casting gets fixed), but incredibly gay and practically uninterruptible on a mes. It's issues like this I really wouldn't want to deal with.

Keithark · Mar 03, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

You're the kind that should stop posting in this thread as you're flooding the topic with nonsense. If you don't understand what he's saying don't post. If you want to debate about some individual changes that's fine, but if you don't grasp the concept don't even bother.

No, I will not stop posting when people get on here and say "I want everyone to get a nerf except what I play in GvG"...Mesmers have plenty of power and are not in need of any kind of buff.

Lorekeeper · Mar 03, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

No, I will not stop posting when people get on here and say "I want everyone to get a nerf except what I play in GvG"...Mesmers have plenty of power and are not in need of any kind of buff.

For you to make such a grossly inaccurate summary of a post that encompasses so much in such little space just points to your grossly inadequate understanding of the issues being discussed here. Im sorry to be so blunt but this kind of update is not simply going to buff mesmers and nerf all others... and its rather insulting to someone who spent time to create such a post to misrepresent it in this way in such a blunt manner. Are you suprised to be met with such hostility when all you are able to do is present your opinion in such a limited manner when the issues at hand span almost 3 years of skill balance evolution?

Please explain why you think the changes suggested in the OP result in a nerfing of every profession except the mesmer. If you do that then maybe people will be willing to explain the post to you so they can convince you otherwise.

yesitsrob · Mar 03, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

So nerf rangers, dervs, and warriors and buff Mesmers? Humm.... what class do you play?

Pretty sure about 6 of Gus' character slots are warriors...

What a dumb comment to make by you. GTFO of the forums please.

DarkNecrid · Mar 03, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

No, I will not stop posting when people get on here and say "I want everyone to get a nerf except what I play in GvG"...Mesmers have plenty of power and are not in need of any kind of buff.

Yeah.

It's not like the OP just doesn't take already stated stuff, explain it better, and put it in one OP, therefore making you wrong.

No, that couldn't be it at all!

frojack · Mar 03, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Great post. However one thing I'd rather not see back are Gale warriors. Those bars were just a bit too strong imo. Coward sword guys feel a bit similar but are far weaker and cost the elite slot.

On Gale itself: I'd love to see the 3 second knockdown come back, but multiple copies will always be a problem, especially if mesmers get to use it. It's a tough one, but since the skill is still quite playable in it's current format, its probably better to leave it alone.

One way to make it stronger without potentially breaking it, could be reducing the recharge to something like 2 seconds. Its not a huge deal, but an individual character Gale-locking someone, or hitting multiple targets, wouldn't be a huge problem considering the cost (GoE mesmers aside for a sec), and could open up some interesting possibilities.
Another possibility could be reducing the advantage Mesmer Gale users have over Elementalists is to reduce cast time to 0.25 or 0.75 seconds. This is slightly more dangerous but would add another (perhaps quite significant) dimension to elementalists.

All for hitting Mend Touch (with attribute cost). It just makes conditions in general harder to play with. Reducing the power of non-ad melee spiking is also very attractive. Finally I absolutely love the idea of making Aggressive Refrain more in line with Frenzy for cost and perhaps even vulnerability. Great stuff...

makosi · Mar 03, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

With reference to the Ranger proposals:

To save a lot of grief, can't Expertise affect [i]only[i] Ranger skills to prevent all of this R/D spammers, R/W Thumpers, R/Mo 'might-as-well-be-AoM-derv' Mending Touch rangers? It leads to other gimmicky no-brainer nonsense like touchers too. Not that I'm suggesting touchers are a threat to the game, I just don't see the need for it.

To be fair, Divine Favor only affects monk spells. Not signets or skills, only spells. I realise that each profession has to be balanced indepentently but why impose strict limitations on one profession to then allow extreme flexibility in another? It took long enough for ANet to kill off Mantra of Resolve trappers and R/Me perma-distortion rangers and it was a step in the right direction, but it needs to be pushed forward still.

As for Mending Touch, change it to "Remove 1..2..3 conditions from target touched ally..." scaling the number of removals at 0, 7 and 15 Protection Prayers and altering the heal amount accordingly.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Rending Touch: Change to, "Lose one Enchantment. If an Enchantment is removed this way, target touched foe loses one Enchantment. Recharge 10s. (Supposing something is done about Grenth's Aura).

Glyph of Lesser Energy: I love it but only because it's too good. I'd like to see an end to false-casting and perhaps a broader scaling of energy saved to rank in Energy storage. E.g. "For 15 seconds, your next two spells cost 7...19 less Energy to cast." It's essential for Eles because Attunements are so unreliable as a result of the increased Enchantment-hate from new chapters.

Avatar of Melandru: Nobody likes no-brainer immunity to conditions. Reduce the energy cost to 15 and replace condition immunity to "conditions expire [scaling number with Mysticism]% faster.

Blinding Surge: I don't see a huge problem with it. Magebane and Cripshot ignores all of your teams Aegis, Guardians, Defensive Anthems etc. and Grenth's Aura strips defensive enchantments, BSurge, currently, is sweet-relief from flying Dervs amongst others. If anything, increase the recharge to promote more tactical usage and less spam.

Blackout: I feel it is fine, it can still easily make the difference between life and death whilst having a strong constraint on the mesmer who uses it.

Gale: Also fine. It is an interrupt and a snare which is too spammable with Glyph of Energy.

I doubt ANet will ever allow boon prots back in the game. Monks aren't allowed to be so self-sufficient since the series of boon prot nerfs. WoH changes suggest otherwise so it might be a possiblity.

akazukin cha cha · Mar 03, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

preach on Gus, preach on.

If anyone at Anet still pays attention anymore, alot of this stuff is pretty key to preventing degenerate playstyles and degenerate innovation from teams looking to win.

Alot of the problems listed are really hampering the game and preventing alot of players from being motivated to play.

PLEASE FIX THE GAME.

thx

Shuuda · Mar 03, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

So nerf rangers, dervs, and warriors and buff Mesmers? Humm.... what class do you play?

-I believe Gus's intention was not to nerf Ranger, but bring back the old Blackout/Distortion Rangers to GvG.

-Nerfing Rending Touch is hardly the biggest nerf to warriors ever.

-Yes, please nerf Melandru Dervishes.

- Give Mesmers other jobs beyond Diversion, Gale Spam and P leak, yes please.

Billiard · Mar 03, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

So nerf rangers, dervs, and warriors and buff Mesmers? Humm.... what class do you play?

Gus started as a ranger back in the day and has played heavy frontline for most of the time I have known him. In fact I have never seen him mesmer in the hundreds of matches I have personally observed him play in.

That said, STFU if you cannot contribute something of substance to this thread. You know the reason why a lot of stuff gets ignored by ANet? It's because people like you dilute down the real content by posting useless off topic crap in threads to the point where it becomes too much of a chore to sift through them.

I applaud the effort Gus put into this thread. While I know Izzy doesn't like to make a lot of changes all at once, I think it is at least useful to have an overall vision for where maybe a lot of smaller changes might seek to go over the course of the implementation.

As a minimum we need to get back to skill-based play over button mashing of imbalanced skills, and I think think this comes across well in Gus's post. I think we as a community should take this opportunity to refine this manifesto into something that makes sense and is useful for Izzy and ANet. So if you think an idea is bad, quote it and give the precise reason for this. Perhaps then we can try to get some consensus on this, and then not the suggested modification in the original - if Gus so chooses.

Neo-LD · Mar 03, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Keithark,

The suggestions in the OP are in no way influenced by preferred profession; veteran players from every profession support this. However, if you insist to know, Gus usually plays warrior (But rumor has it hes 9.5/10 on everything but monk).

It seems that with your original accusation shot down, you now suggest that mesmers are too strong to be buffed. This logic fails to understand that the purpose of the suggested mesmer changes is not to make mesmers stronger, but to alter their playstyle from stale interrupt-bitches to the classical prophecies-dom. Playing whack-a-mole with interrupts is an important GW subgame, but it has come to grossly dominate any and all full-scale confrontations, marginalizing countless other potential strategies and disproportionally rewarding one form of "skill" over others. Together with the rest of the vision in the OP, the suggested mesmer changes would fix this.

Now if you dont mind, please stop arguing. Billiard is correct when he says that your posts dilute the chances that Anet will recognize and act upon the insight in the OP.

Riotgear · Mar 03, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Who gives a shit what he plays. Is he right or wrong? If he's wrong, prove him wrong, theorizing what class he plays does not accomplish this.

Quote:

Melandru is strong yes, but since cripshot is unblockable why not keep a character around that is un-crippleable (is that a word?) plus when form goes down they are relatively easy target and that is one of the big things that makes them not be as broken as say a shadowstepping sin that gets within 30hp of death just to pop back to the other side of the map between his 2 monks.

Because being overpowered for zero seconds every 2 minutes is better than being overpowered for 62 seconds every 2 minutes.

Vaga · Mar 03, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

don't nerf b-surge as blind is much more skill oriented than aegis, wards, DA and things like that...well a little anyway due to energy. Melandru is strong yes, but since cripshot is unblockable why not keep a character around that is un-crippleable

You said it in your own post blind takes skill to use, and in addition to that cripple is also somewhat active defense so why would you want to keep melandru dervs if they're immune to two of the most common active defenses that generally pop up balanced builds?

Paragons and Mel dervs a major contribution to people having to run all the passive defense...they can bypass everything but ward and aegis pretty easily.

Also mesmers aren't that strong in gvg at all right now.

Billiard · Mar 03, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Let's please keep this focused and on topic. Too many of these topics get sidetracked and I really want to keep this one on track as best as possible.

hareth · Mar 03, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

you forget to speak about monk, izzy nerfed lod cauz the game was "too defensive", then he buffed woh and hp so much than it's like 10 time more, reversing hp to 2 sec cast, making woh 5 sec recharge, would be a great thing for the game.

Keithark · Mar 03, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Who gives a shit what he plays. Is he right or wrong? If he's wrong, prove him wrong, theorizing what class he plays does not accomplish this.

Because being overpowered for zero seconds every 2 minutes is better than being overpowered for 62 seconds every 2 minutes.

Yea my OP was poorly worded the point was why buff one of the most influential classes in the game while nerfing all the other classes?

You are correct about Mel dervs..when I read OP (after seeing the other proposed nerfs listed) I assumed he ment something on the order of make conditions expire xxx amount sooner or something along those lines which would make it yet another useless elite. If he wanted a nerf along the lines of "immune to degenerative conditions" then that would be ok i guess..but since it has already fallen out of favor in gvg's..at least the ones I have seen on observer lately, then even that much of a nerf would probably be the nail in the coffin anyway.