Curse

The Savage I · Jul 13, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Most of the good players quit the game. Another good portion don't HA because they're either sick of it or don't like it. Which leaves very little options for HA monks.

gg you win, that pretty much sums it up here

Grugio · Jul 13, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Yeah a lot of monks do fail, and this is another thread like omfg, where did all the koreans go?

As all of you leet pro players know, a person dying can be just as much their fault as the monks. Take an r-spike. The infuse misses the infuse, but what was that person doing out in the open anyways, shouldn't they have been hiding? Standing in AoE, balling up, no spirit control, no wards, no interrupts. There is not just a shortage of good monks now in HA, but Good players. I like to point the finger at sway/heroway. These people can achieve a high rank with having minimal experience in HA, just farming UW, Fetid, and Burial over and over and over again. They also have no concept of what their role is in the team. Put them on ele or you get the "omg my templates are gone, ping me an HB Build".

That's assuring.

Yeah monks are bad, but don't just point the finger at the monks when other crap isn't happening.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 14, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

@Grudio: I agree. I started Monking again in RA for the weekend.. i was thinking. in order to deserve to monk in HA i need to prove myself by going thru the RA/TA trials of winning 10 and 5 again. Yes. i managed to go 13 in a row twice (not bad for 5 hours of game play -> don;t drink and monk,,, ,peoples lives are at risk) ... but man.,.. the number of times i should have stopped healing. My favourite in RA (and HA) is the warrior or ele or mesmer or necro or dervish that decides to go straight for the monk at the back of the group and die in like 10seconds. that is when i stop healing or don;t rez that person.

so, 1. monks in HA might be bad, but there are some real noobs what play other professions. people who stand there in the archway and get spiked down by r-spike and the nooobs who rez them using hard rezzes when you have a flesher on your team.

@Killed U man: can i say +1? yes.. i can.

Personally i like what Borat (the real one) is saying. It is getting me to think... why the hell am i using channelling on my HA monk? i can easily get a team to 5 in a row in RA with out using chanelling.... things like don;t use WoH unless person is below 50%. Don;t spam skills. you don;t have to have everyone at 100% health. Use appropriate skills at the right times that have secondary heal effects or other. etc etc.

why should you only have 2 monks relying on a single enchantment? even good GVG teams have 2+ healers with a 3rd runner/heal hybrid. no one uses channelling there? why? cause totally getting your team over lapping is bad play. exposing your monks to casters is bad play. hammering straight for the monks is bad play... yet.. that is what everyone does in HA?

maybe cause the objectives are different and the maps allow full spiking etc etc.

i am not pushing for an ANet meta shift... i am pushing for a player based meta shift. however,,,, the problem with ANet is that as soon as we find something that passively mitagates damage from OP spike teams, they nerf it to shit cause they want active healing/defence... not passive defence / healing.

so, as soon as we come up with a team build that will allow us to passively protect/heal ourselves so we can go about playing the game to try and co-ordinate spikes / pressure the other team, we just find it will get nerfed again....

well... that is my rant+contribution. i am going to work on my own form of balanced team that brings back the old gvg / 3 monk backline to HA. no reliance on channelling,,, just good old energy management, some good party heals, wards, wells, interrupts, utility.

LifesRestorer · Jul 14, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

people do need to be topped up for the majority of the time in HA cause around 70% of teams nowdays are spikes. Channelling is used due to the nature of HA. The maps are small and compressed with narrow chokes making skills like channelling ideal, unlike in GvG where the terrain is alot larger and the team has a much bigger space to spread out around.
In 4v4 arenas, channelling is simply not worth it as the most you will ever get from a return from channelling in there is 4, while in HA, the return is a potential +18 (2 teams in halls, 2 ghosts). And as people bunch up on the altar to cap and such, the chances of getting a high return out of channelling are extremely high.

Also, don't run res on a monk in RA. for every second you are wasting trying to res someone is a second lost when you could be preventing someone from dying instead

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 14, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

oh, i don;t run rez on a monk.

i see the benefit of channelling on a monk in HA.... but it just means you rely on it too much in the end.

NightOwl · Jul 14, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

The good monks, or potential monks, are busy lfg and being denied for not being rank 150930925 or whatever the current popular requirement is.

Take a noob, and don't insta-punt 'em if they're not perfect. Talk to 'em, help 'em out, bring up some good monks. It might cost you a day or three of HA omgwtfpwnage to help a potentially good monk become solid, but once you get them into the groups and help 'em out, you'll have good monks on call when you need them.

Quit rank discrimination, and try teaching a little instead of screaming "omfg n00b ur teh suxx0r" with a /punt. How are people supposed to improve when all they can get is (insert current unranked gimmick build of your choice) to get the rank, then they're rank 12 with no monk experiance, despite having wanted to monk from rank 0 in the first place? That's how you get high ranked crappy monks, instead of high ranked decent players.

Killed u man · Jul 14, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl

The good monks, or potential monks, are busy lfg and being denied for not being rank 150930925 or whatever the current popular requirement is.

Take a noob, and don't insta-punt 'em if they're not perfect. Talk to 'em, help 'em out, bring up some good monks. It might cost you a day or three of HA omgwtfpwnage to help a potentially good monk become solid, but once you get them into the groups and help 'em out, you'll have good monks on call when you need them.

Quit rank discrimination, and try teaching a little instead of screaming "omfg n00b ur teh suxx0r" with a /punt. How are people supposed to improve when all they can get is (insert current unranked gimmick build of your choice) to get the rank, then they're rank 12 with no monk experiance, despite having wanted to monk from rank 0 in the first place? That's how you get high ranked crappy monks, instead of high ranked decent players.

I'm a R12 player (Half to 13, which counts for something -I called all my own fame, I wasn't someone's bitch for the past 3 years

), and I usually look for R9+

That's VERY generous, as I'm allowing people with about 1/10th of my fame in my groups...

More often than not, when they are R8 I STILL allow them in my group. (Assuming they are in a PvP guild AND gues the bar correctly)

It's not a questing of "taking" new players, because for every "new" monk I would love to try, I will get 99 PvE'ers who can't Monk for sheit, yet them claim they can, who merely want their Tiger to show off HOW good of a PvP'er they are... Yes, don't even mention the Rank Discrimination.

Life and Trinity got somewhat the same vision me. The reliance on channeling, however, has been around for so long. And yet in the beginning, Monks actaully HAD to prot, and do stuff.

-------------From here on, it's once again personal opinion, thus why I'm posting it on a forum, a place of public discussion
Like I said, the main problem here is builds. Builds such as Rspike, A/Dspike (Rip? I don't think so), Adrenaline spike with 1000 DA's, etc..., allow for so much defence, the Monks can go on autopilot.

In the other "who you think is the best Monk in HA" thread, I read REDICILOUS names. People who I wouldn't even take if they paid me ectos... (Divine is pretty much the only guy I can agree with, as GvG monking is still alot harder)

On a sidenote: GvG monking recently has become a joke aswell. With the replacement of the Diversion-spammer and Ranger to a Signet Mesmer, Monks really can go auto-pilot aswell. (Besides the usual prot)
I mean, there Elite is down 99% of the time (SoH got nerfed, but still

) so there isn't much they can do about it.
In replacement, Monks don't even have to fear Dshots, Diversions, Shames, etc anymore...
In overal, I think you could say, for GvG, that Battefield Awareness (Including Mes using diversions etc) went down by ALOT (red barring ftw), but "smart" spamming has become more vital. (Spam as much WoH as you can, with all of them being 100% effective eg)

Anyways, back to HA:

With builds such as (Once again, I'm sorry I keep repeating this, but it really is the best example) rspike, you really don't need any Monks at all atm.
1) Your Monks (Pugging) will fail anyways, because they are used to being behind the Rangers, rather in front of them. (In other words, they are used to Monking FOR an rspike, or other redicilously easy build)
Thus: "observing" the caller in order to see who he is spiking is something they can't do, and thus it will come down to red-bar protting/infusing. (Which they're pretty bad at aswell, because they are used to having half the enemy spike Dshotted/Savage Shotted + Vital Weapon)

2) The spike in HA, and I mean overal (Including Ritspikes, A/D spikes) are so OP, they will kill 90% of the time anyways.
So in overal, you would have been better of with 2 extra warriors, rather then 2 Monks, in a sad attempt to break through the walls of Dshots, savage shots, wards, weapon spells, Snares, Spirits, 3 Monk backlines, 3 rit healers, etc...

kranius · Jul 14, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

go go Mo/W, it pwnz a lot lol (shield bash makes you strong)

rspike, rtspike or w/e popular -spike are really OP, but get pwned by some good pressure builds (which are not run often btw)

but you need players who dont autofail (lol at mesmerz who cant interrupt ooa or others 2s cast spells, and lol at monks who cant preprot vs hammer warrior - aura of stabilty anyone ?)

anyways, on topic :

its just they rely on [channeling] + spam lol. Strip channeling and they fail hard. (i seen monks infuse a single sword warrior pressure - guardian was enough, but it needs to read game, thus they failed).

i am not a very good monk, but i can see on observer most monks cant use they bar properly...

Div · Jul 14, 2008, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranius

rspike, rtspike or w/e popular -spike are really OP, but get pwned by some good pressure builds (which are not run often btw)

Problem is, you need to be able to

a) have some formidable split for certain maps
b) have lots of AoE for altar
c) run relics
d) have snares -- lots of them
e) have ways to deal with opposing snarers -- interrupts
f) survive, meaning midline defense

That's a shitload of stuff to pack in a build. Every single one of them takes away from the ability to run a good pressure build. There are still teams that play for fun and take super-pressure builds, but most teams follow those main objectives. It's really hard to create an overly aggressive build while meeting those objectives.

Quote:

its just they rely on [channeling] + spam lol. Strip channeling and they fail hard. (i seen monks infuse a single sword warrior pressure - guardian was enough, but it needs to read game, thus they failed).

Unless you have deep strips (rend, gaze), it's hard to strip channeling. Most "good" HA monks are "good" because they take care of their channeling, which in turns lets them spam more spells to keep the team alive. But sometimes, is it worth it to dump all your deep strips on channeling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In the other "who you think is the best Monk in HA" thread, I read REDICILOUS names. People who I wouldn't even take if they paid me ectos... (Divine is pretty much the only guy I can agree with, as GvG monking is still alot harder)

Thanks for the vote of confidence

I agree that it's really depressing how bad most monks are nowadays because they've been spoiled with overly defensive builds. Rspikes with layers of defense and 3 monks, legoway with all the midline defense, as well as other commonly ran builds. Same with GvG. It used to be that monks would have little to rely on outside of themselves in a meta with rangers and dom mesmers. Now, it's mostly all bad monks hiding behind 2 water snares or 3 fellow smiters. They don't even have to worry about dodging interrupts or battlefield awareness in a lot of their matches.

Though it really makes me wonder now. Is it that monks are being spoiled by high-defense builds and are getting worse, or is it because there are so little "good monks" left that people design builds that even monkeys can run successfully?

Free Sigils · Jul 14, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Though it really makes me wonder now. Is it that monks are being spoiled by high-defense builds and are getting worse, or is it because there are so little "good monks" left that people design builds that even monkeys can run successfully?

That is a good question. Its probably a combination of both. People started using defense and then monks began slacking off. The defense was also quasi necessary because of the wicked high damage and defense of NF skills. Then monks got used to it, and when people tried to shift away from defense the current generation of monks wasn't even ready for it. And then people were like "Shit I can't pug monks without defense" blah blah blah defense came back monks kept learning to suck its a vicious cycle imo.

noneedforclevernames · Jul 14, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

The reason why EVERYONE, not just the monks, in HA and all other GW are bad is because GW has no professional scene. This caused all the decent to good players to quit about 2 years ago. It's not just the monks, but its practically everybody.

NightOwl · Jul 14, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I'm a R12 player (Half to 13, which counts for something -I called all my own fame, I wasn't someone's bitch for the past 3 years

), and I usually look for R9+

That's VERY generous, as I'm allowing people with about 1/10th of my fame in my groups...

More often than not, when they are R8 I STILL allow them in my group. (Assuming they are in a PvP guild AND gues the bar correctly)

It's not a questing of "taking" new players, because for every "new" monk I would love to try, I will get 99 PvE'ers who can't Monk for sheit, yet them claim they can, who merely want their Tiger to show off HOW good of a PvP'er they are... Yes, don't even mention the Rank Discrimination.

Yeah, that's rank discrimination at it's finest. You're *so* generous allowing R8 monks into your elitist r12 groups, yet you're here complaining about crappy monks. So they don't have as much fame, they're obviously not exclusively pve'ers, as they're there in the pvp scene, and have been there long enough to get to r8. How did they get to r8, I wonder? Maybe monking for rspike, since elitists won't let them in if they don't have the rank?

I'll admit it's a viscious cycle, gotta have rank to get rank. However, forcing these monks into rspike, whateverway, or other gimmick type builds is leaving you with exactly the situation you're complaining about. After playing those builds for 8+ ranks of fame, no wonder they're used to monking for EXACTLY THAT.

Heaven forbid people actually encounter a player who is willing to learn and play the class that's needed, and actually get some helpful coaching from decent, established players that don't run flavor of the howeverlong builds, hmm?

Also, nice job insulting all the "bitches", aka 7 out of 8 players in every group, or the vast majority of players.

One more snippet:

Quote:

1) Your Monks (Pugging) will fail anyways, because they are used to being behind the Rangers, rather in front of them. (In other words, they are used to Monking FOR an rspike, or other redicilously easy build)

You put them behind the rangers. What other options do they have? They want pvp, the only group options are...? It's like people expect great monks to appear out of thin air, instead of helping intelligent players who want to improve. Perhaps you'd prefer them to sit and wait lfg for day after day turning down the rspike (or whatever), despite the fact that's the only choice they've got? That won't improve their monking either.

Killed u man · Jul 14, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

As a reply to Nightowl:

But that is my INTIRE point. The fact that these Monks fail, because all they can do, is either run sway, or a low-ranked rspike.

I'm saying that Anet starts working on those builds all-together. If they want to "PvP" as badly as you say, I'm pretty sure they would Monk for a balanced aswell. Or wouldn't that get them enough fame? (Face it 99% really don't care about improving, they JUST WANT THEIR TIGER -but once again, this is off-topic)

--------Off-Topic
There is no point in discussing fame discrimination. Look, at the end of the day, it still comes down to this (If you take ebay out of the equation):
More fame = more experience played in overal.
I'dd still rather take a R10 sway'er, than a R3 balanced player.
HOW can U expect a R12 player, who have been playing since Tombs, to go with R6 people, who have been HA'ing for a Month orso, and still got most of their fame of Rspike, Sway, ...
---------On-Topic

So my suggestion, back to Original Post, is to simply work on these hyperdefensive/offensive builds. (Mainly NF skill/buffs)
Monking WAS in fact alot more fun in the old days, and I'm pretty sure Divine agrees on that one. (I know I'm talking about fun here, because after all, a game's succes is still decided on it's fun-factor)
Protting Dual Warrior frontlines, with a mesmer trying to diversion your every-key-skill, with a ranger spreading poison, just getting pwned by your fakes, etcs...
THAT was fun. As a Monk, you carried your team. Now, the Monk has pretty much become the guildb!tch. He doesn't have to check for Diversions, doesn't have to worry about Dshots (After the nerf of MoI, more diversion have been commign back, but still too few), barely has to worry about positioning, as your Signet mesmer wtfpwn any Warrior on you anyways.
Did I mention Low-sets anyways? Wtf is a low-set? Exactly... Nothing better then watching E-burn or E-surge do 0 damage...
The problem is, this goes for every bar:
Bsurge, active defence -lame, but still- has been replace by a Signet spammer. So has the Mesmer.
Ranger has been replace by either another Signet spammer, DA paragon or Me/E FC snare.

I don't know a whole lot about GvG, but I sure as hell know that in the past year, it went from active play -> passive buttonbash. And we all know what shit started this off: VoD farming builds...

This line can be continued directly to HA:
Instead of Chocking Gas, one of the best/funnest Ranger bars ever, we have 3 fire eles spamming their brains out. Instead of an infusable bloodspike, we have an uninfusable Rspike. Instead of omgretarded OP holding builds, we now have WTFomgretarded OP holding builds. Is it fun running those builds? Yes, for about a week, then you start realizing you're only playing for fame. (Phoenix/Tiger)

Teh Jace · Jul 14, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneedforclevernames

The reason why EVERYONE, not just the monks, in HA and all other GW are bad is because GW has no professional scene. This caused all the decent to good players to quit about 2 years ago. It's not just the monks, but its practically everybody.

Who are u to say smth like this?

Everyone fails, everyone is bad. If that's true how can bad players (u all since everyone is bad) judge the others?
This place is completely f*cked up. Gimmickers are moaning about bad monks. U say HA monks can't monk without channeling and once it's stripped they start crying. Well what else can they do against 2-3 fire eles on crazy small HA maps? Srsly ppl wake up.

The most of matches is not about monks anyways. If a mesmer wants to rape u he will. If 5 of ur teammates suddenly decide to enter the burning circle called SH then u can't do anything about it.
Srsly the few things a monk can do: shouting at the frontline to train enemy warriors, keep his/her target on a mesmer, kitting (to take 200 dmg from scythe), remove veil after diversion is landed and switch sets as often as possible. Imo an average gw player can handle this, it is not hard. If u can't do this then stop moaning here and keep practising.

And low ranked ppl should stop crying and go make some friends. It rly helps if u wanna play gw.

The majority of guru population consists of pve players who like to attend pvp threads as well. It's rly easy to write shitloads of U-ALL-SUCK posts and submit them but instead of it u should try to act.

Div · Jul 14, 2008, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

U say HA monks can't monk without channeling and once it's stripped they start crying. Well what else can they do against 2-3 fire eles on crazy small HA maps? Srsly ppl wake up.

Glyph of lesser energy. It lets you happily hide in a corner while the other two teams are busy looking on the altar for your monks

While I won't bother arguing which is better, I'll say that with the right team and smart players that don't stand in AoE like PvE mobs, it's capable of winning...a lot. A good portion of my 100+ fame runs were with me running gole, and it served me well. In relic runs and capture points (which were 90% of the maps I played in halls), I got to control my positioning a lot more while getting the same (if not better) energy return.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 15, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Divine, i am glad there are people like you out there who are not sheep.

you are obviously good enough and know the right people to be allowed to play your own bar and win.

for the rest of us, unfortunately we are stuck playing sub-par pvx bars when PUGgin or trying to find a decent guild that will also let us play our own variations of bars. i think a lot of the problem with HA is the scourge of PVP and GW and that is PVXWIKI. Basically this website rules the meta and the meta follows this website like gospel. That is why there is no variation in the game anymore. Build websites and the little sheep that follow them. the rest of us make our own builds or something similar.

you play monk the way i would rather play.... channelling FTL. be smart and play more GVG style where you hide at the back and use your team to tank for you. (/humour)

Syntonic · Jul 15, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

If you are willing to spend a good portion of time to get people together, you can get them to run what you want. It's just the matter of starting up your own group that may prove challenging since there's at least several rank farmers who only run a particular build (for example, sway) since that's what they have. A bit of theory crafting here but the issue isn't really with pvxwiki - in fact, if there wasn't a pvxwiki, I imagine that pug builds would be even more simplistic and result in SF farm builds or the like.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 15, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Though it really makes me wonder now. Is it that monks are being spoiled by high-defense builds and are getting worse, or is it because there are so little "good monks" left that people design builds that even monkeys can run successfully?

I don't know about that. Water snares are pretty horrible anti-melee imo where bsurge could do a good job at stoping spikes and keep people shut down better. With wounding strike at the highest level of stupidity and conjure/soh stacking right now with the nerfs of lots of passive d, i think physicals are just having a field day over monks right.

Ben-A-BoO · Jul 15, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Thanks Teh Jace,
Was about time somebody speaks a word of reason in this "QQ I am R12+ but still gotta pug my monks QQ" thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

And low ranked ppl should stop crying and go make some friends. It rly helps if u wanna play gw.

Well and it looks like high ranked people too.

Guys, make friends. If you don't make friends, ask yourself "what am I doing wrong?". The reason is not that you'll always have the 'l33test monks' around. Nope, but at least the monks know you and your team. You will hear laughter on vent, people won't take offense on harsh in game comments if the tension gets high and people take the time to chit-chat over strats and builds after the runs.

And did I miss something or since when was pugging an option in any more serious form of competitive online gaming?

And yes, this includes having serious fun...

And as last side note: Don't blame it solely on the monks guys if your team fails. Guild Wars is all about the team. Your monks having a hard time? Improve your mid and front line and by that I don't wanna imply "go go go hyperdefence", could also be "go go go ensure a kill" or "go go go don't tank damage".

Have fun everyone and not in glorifying memories but in game today.

Killed u man · Jul 15, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

""

And U totally missed the point of this thread.

It's not the fact that I'm pissed that my R9+ pugs Monks suck, I'm pissed about the fact that R9+ Monks suck.
Once again, if you're here to jump on a bandwagon, please Sarcelac is full of "Omg, you're a retard, you have no clue what you're talking about"-threads.

I KNOW that when I pug, I shouldn't expect too much. But, and if you read my OP you would have known this, HOW come they fail so bad, in comparison to them playing in their guild/friend groups, and in comparison to Monks 1 year ago.

Well, it's because, once again, I'll recap it for you since you cba reading the OP before you post in the thread:
It's the fact that defence and offence in builds have been compressed to such an extend, there is 2x, 3x, 4x more room for utility sheit. (Vital Weapon wards, interrupts, DA's, etc...) Monks nowadays are used to having a 3 Monk backline, with vital weapon and interrupts, that the second they pug, they fall into a whole so big, they will never manage the fill it up with personal skill.

What I'm ranting is that, even tough HA is a shithole in PvP purely becuz Izzy neglects it, at the moment, HA is nothing more than Build Wars. This results in worse players in overal. This means that Monks will suffer the biggest consequence, as they are needed in every Team.

This is not a QQ thread, this is a pity thread, in which I express (Once again, it's a effing forum, if no-one is allowed to express personal feelings in order for other people to discuss, why have it in the first place -for PvE'ers to discuss where they can farm effectly with Ursan? N ty-) my feelings on the current state of HA (-Monks).

As for the fact that I'm R12 and don't have any friends:

Pretty much the intire HA community knows me. (Good and bad rep) I have over 10 "real" good Monks on my friend's list, some who have been playing since Gale Warriors were meta. Problem is they are never online. Yes, everyone left the game. My former guilds [NaNa] and [BLOW] have disbanded (I was leader) and everyone left this sad scene of so-called PvP. I, on the other hand, kept playing HA, as I still find the "Hall of Heroes" loading screen the most thrilling one in the game.
I'm sorry that I refused to play with the new generation of R11-12 swayers/Heroways/whatever lame gimmick build-wayers. And now, I'm falling out of the boat, because I never have good Monks online. (Star is always playing some meta farming build in his quest to beat leeloof - I still love you Alex

)
There WAS a time where U could pug Monks. Good Monks, and all I want, is to bring that back. If you can't pug Monks, you can't pug. If you can't pug, all you'll see is: Rspikes, sway's, retarded balanced builds (2 DA's, Wounding strikes and 4 fire eles) and heroways) -and offc SF spikes-

This is a problem that will get more and more prominent, as more people are leaving this sad scene every day. I'm merely suggesting that in this upcomming update, HA gets 1/10th of the attention that GvG always does, and that would already fix ALOT of problems in the sheithole called HA...