Curse

Ciric · Jun 30, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

6v6 compresses bars to a point where not every team has: warding, make haste, song, good source of interrupts (PD), dedicated snares, and off monk partyhealing/hex removal. 6 man also puts less stress on AoE damage and skills simply due to the fact that now there are only 12-18 people not 16-24.

I'm all for 6v6 because it compresses bars, and would make things interesting. the problem with the last 6 man HA wasn't 100% the size, but the map rotation and current IMBA skills.

In order to have a successful 6v6 HA you would need to swap fetid/burial mounds to Broken Tower, Unholy Temples needs to be swapped to a new map (Scared Earth comes to mind) re-skined as a HB style Cap points, then anti chamber needs to be changes to the old Relic run. In halls we need to add kill count and HB style cap points.

Why?

Priest maps rarely change the outcome of matches that would have beeen simple annihilation and haveing 3 in rotation is just pointless. However, a Kill count favors two things Speed buffs/ranged snares (foes/grasping arn't as good as a water ele then) and big fast damage, AoE mainly. Standard annihilation favors build wars. Unholy temples is imposable to win without good snares, so, in order to increase build diversity we change relic runs to a very tactical map, where a few good KD's and damage can kill and win (this reduces the need for snares in general, while broken tower increases the range for distance snares, and HoH still requires some snares).

The HB cap points is just a way of brining even more tactics into Halls. Cap points would require you to choose points to take/defend more carefully then just zerging points. Also, scoring kills will add to you points, so you can't send monk and ghost off to cap, and suicide before time. I would sugest ghost counts as 2 pnt, and first to 20 pnts wins (make is HB style with bar regen).

The HoH changes are again just to make sure builds have to be more diverse and that a team can not buildwars for all 5 styles. I also propose auto kicks from halls when a team gets to far behind in points to help stop Ganking.

I'll go into more detail/ defend my points when need be, just not bothered atm.

Lykan · Jun 30, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

No not in the slightest.

Damus · Jun 30, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

The only thing I ever thought was good about 6v6 was that you needed to find two less players to make an all player team, which meant less waiting and mucking around. That's about it.

6ppl + 2 heroes is gay, but i hurd heroes are better than the majority of the ppl hanging out in ha ids.

Legendary Shiz · Jun 30, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

It was pretty fun, I thought, while it was around. But that's only because a lot of higher end guilds were trying it out and playing around.

Would be fun to do again for a weekend event, or something. But probably not permanently.

Orange Milk · Jun 30, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

People Hate Sway now, the 6v6 version was stronger.

6v6 was fun because at the time I was in a small guild and it made life easy for us.

8v8 isbetter in the long run.

A good fix to HA would be making the second map stratigic instead of annihilate. 3 annihilate maps in a row is baed. Breeds farming builds.

Apok Omen · Jun 30, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

No, and I don't miss the bitching about it even before it was implemented...

leeky baby · Jun 30, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I liked 6 v 6 not as much as 8v8 but now when i go into HA the time it takes to form a pug is stupid.. some people have guilds and freinds but im now in a pve guild and most of the people i use to play with have left the game so 6v6 wouldt be the end of the world.

Borat X · Jul 01, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Anything but 8v8 is generally not desirable because the skills are balanced around 8v8 play. Any less, and you get skills that are overpowered in smaller formats but not so much so in 8v8 (plus it's harder to run balanced in smaller formats). Any more, and you get degenerate party-affecting skills that is stronger the more people you have (shouts, even stuff like heal party/channeling).

Skills are more balance around 8vs8 gameplay?

I think anyone that HA actively before would have to agree with Ekelon that 6vs6 is more balanced than 8v8. 6vs6 had little to offer, it was too balanced and boring! (lack of strong spike builds & overpowered hex builds)

Point is this: The smaller your party size, the more balance the game become. Look at TA for example.

However, if PvP increased to 10vs10, sure....people can still run balance, but it will not be balanced, compared to 4vs4.

Killed u man · Jul 01, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borat X

Point is this: The smaller your party size, the more balance the game become. Look at TA for example.

Lol...

That's why there is only 1 build in TA that owns all, right?

Or that's why EVERYONE in HB either runs Monk or Sin?

The smaller the scale, the bigger the affect of skill bars will have. You gave TA as an example, I give TA as an example: Try running a REAL balanced there, NOT abusing gimmicks. You won't win. After about 1-2 matches, you'll get rick-rolled by something gimmick such as a packer, 2 SoM mesmers and a Monk. Something you simply can't, and won't beat. (Unless U fully anti it, and get rolled by every other build)

The PERFECT example for this is:

Look at AB: How often do you have a Wammo, N/E flare spam, P/N minnion spammer who thinks his shouts buff minnions, or whatever, and still won?

This is because you have 11 other people, who can fill the void for the badly skilled player.

Now, turn this scenario around:
You have 11 badly skilled people (Wammo's, N/E's, etc... - any crappy PvE bar) and 1 Scythe Ranger. (OP Gimmick in AB)
The 1 Scythe Ranger will NOT be able to make up for the 11 other crappy people in his team. In other words, EVEN TOUGH he is running a trash OP build, it won't make a difference in the outcome, because there is 11 other people which he can't count on.

The smaller you make this scale, the bigger the effect of individual bars becomes. Perfect example: RA.
One of the most "OP" bars to run in RA, is obviously the Monk. I doubt there is anyone here who says that you're better off without a Monk than with a Monk in RA. If you decide to run a Monk (Not really a gimmick, but OP within RA terms, because Monk usually means win), you can easily CARRY the team. Even if you have 1-2 PvE'ers with regardless crappy bars, you should still win if the other teams doesn't have a Monk. (If the're not runnig to OP bars themselves, a Monk obviously won't hold out long vs 2 thumpers, a Mesmer and an Ele) But regardless, you have a major advantage by having that certain bar in your team, a Monk.

In 1v1, this effect (The smaller the scale, the bigger Build Wars becomes) becomes dominant. It is unlikely you'll beat an Apply Ranger (Prolly king of 1v1 scrimmages) with any bar other than fully shutdown. (Blind spams, etc) Even then, a Ranger has Antidote signet against the blind, and can then try and D-Shot Bsurge, or whatever.

I'm merely prooving your statement is wrong. 6v6 WON'T be more balanced, worse, it will be even more imbalanced. At the moment, Monks strugle with 3 R/D's, 2 trappers and a Warmongers.

Can U imagine the 6v6 scenario? 2 R/D's, 1 Trapper, 1 echo/Warmongers and 2 N/Rt's will just cut through any non-para-abusing balanced...

I hope they WON'T bring back 6v6, and if they do, I sure as hell hope they first do a MAJOR skill update for HA, to make up for the last 2 years we didn't get to see any... Otherwise, HA will go from: Inactive/Near Dead (Now) ==> Active (After the 6v6 update) ==> Completely dead, but title farmers, who only care about fame, not about the actual game (After about 2-3 weeks after the update)

axe · Jul 01, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borat X

Skills are more balance around 8vs8 gameplay?

I think anyone that HA actively before would have to agree with Ekelon that 6vs6 is more balanced than 8v8. 6vs6 had little to offer, it was too balanced and boring! (lack of strong spike builds & overpowered hex builds)

Point is this: The smaller your party size, the more balance the game become. Look at TA for example.

However, if PvP increased to 10vs10, sure....people can still run balance, but it will not be balanced, compared to 4vs4.

I cant tell if you are being serious. But I am making popcorn because this should get interesting.

As for 6v6 I did enjoy it before Kill Count, in my opinion Kill Count is what really messed HA up the most. 8v8 pre-nightfall was the best HA has ever been (IMO) 6v6 was unfavored by many mostly because of the bad timing of the implementation, too many changes to determine what exactly was causing HA to suck.

Once 6v6 got rolling, it was fun, until kill count. 8v8 is better, except they have some terrible objectives clouding up peoples opinions atm. You see I dont think the party size is what made HA fun, it was the format, they screwed that up bad, and were pretty much stuck with the lesser of 2 evils

Borat X · Jul 01, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

That's why there is only 1 build in TA that owns all, right?

I stopped reading after that statement.

GL to you.

Orange Milk · Jul 01, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Divine is right, the game is balanced around 8v8.

The less people you have the less options you have.

32 skills on your team compared to 64. In TA you can't prepare for 1/2 the stuff you can in GvG/HA. Change a couple skills, just one or two, now you've too much defense and not enough Dmg, change the other way, no defense. In 4v4 you can't afford to have an "idle" skill thats just there "incase" In 8v* you can (i.e Make Haste in HA, a must for some maps, can be used on others, but not needed and can sit idle at times)

The HC combined with the Smiter Monk is an OP gimmick in TA, add in the Tri interupt RaO axe Rangers witht their pets and you eliminate all skill from the game and win with a build. 2 healers where as a "balanced" team has 1, and maybe a tad bit of support (FF necro) the Smiter also doing Damage, too many enchants for a "balanced" team to prepare for and remove. Mass Spamming of interupts relying not on skill, but the spammability of those interupts to hit important things. The "balanced" team lacks the enchat removale as well as dmg to deal with 2 monks, not to mention the Enchants are all spamable where as enchant removers are not.

Simpler terms, Goth Spike, if you don't have anti-KD you loose, simple as that (Unless they are really bad) if your 32 skills don't include one of the few anti-KD skills in the game you lose the buildwars match.

Gimmicks happen in HA and GvG, but balanced tend sto be the best overall way to go. in TA Gimmicks can take youplaces until you hit that one team that specs for you, of course they lose the next round because they can't stop that gimmick the next team has.

In 8v8, you can invite gimmicks with 8 SF eles and what not, but you can also carry more skills to stop said gimmick as well as prepare for others. No you can't prepare for everything, but you can run a better "balance" of skills.

I could go on for days, but I won't.

Ka Tet · Jul 01, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

After seeing the arguments, I'm starting to lean against 6-man. The format would work with frequent competent skill balances. However, we wont get those, so 6-man would probably fail harder than 8-man currently does.
Also, I'm confused: is the second borat the same borat as killed u man? For now I'll refer to killed u man as Borat Classic and borat as New Borat. To Borat Classic, all thats left in HA at the moment are the fame farmers. On the bright side, my pve chars are getting pimped out while I'm waiting for a skill balance.

Yawgmoth · Jul 02, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Could be some fun if they did it again for a weekend event, but not for any longer - established HA guilds or teams are used to forming 8-man teams.

A year ago I thought that seasonal changes 8v8-6v6 could be nice but now I know it would upset too many people and having guilds recruit more players just for the 8v8 season and then not really need them in first squad during 6v6 season would be downright stupid.

And I disagree that the skills is balanced around 8v8 play, I'd say they're balanced for a maximum of 8 man team play. Look at 4v4 formats or GvGs full of various splitting situations with fights at any group sizes... smaller groups don't generate problems, it's the bigger teams the more opportunities for spiking and gimmicks.
Smaller teams for HA play must be packed tightly with utility skills, this reduces the overall team build variety but also makes creating gimmick builds more difficult.

Takida · Jul 02, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

You see I dont think the party size is what made HA fun, it was the format, they screwed that up bad, and were pretty much stuck with the lesser of 2 evils

Exactly

12 chars

Sethellington · Jul 02, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I miss it in the way that, back then, you could go 2 player 4 heroes, and this was just after nightfall, so if you got in quick with good hero builds that no one else had, you could have a team ready in 5 mins and make it to halls beating full team that have no idea what hit em !

dunno, mixed opinions.... I'd kinda like to have both to be honest.

shoogi · Jul 02, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

6v6 was a refreshing change at the start mainly becaused it killed iway, but 8v8 is better for the reasons mentioned above.

Alexandria · Jul 18, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

6v6 and up the limit on allowed heroes, then I'd be super happy.

Ate of DK · Jul 18, 2008, 09:51 AM // 09:51

/not signed.

When 6vs6 HA was introduced my former guild became inactive because they didn't like it at all. I didn't liked it myself and took a break from HA until it became 8vs8 again. It was too limited in what you can do and will certainly not work on the current maps. It's allready too hard to balance the game for 8vs8 play. Creating 8vs8 (GvG) and 6vs6 (HA) again will create more problems.

Killed u man · Jul 18, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ate of DK

/not signed.

When 6vs6 HA was introduced my former guild became inactive because they didn't like it at all. I didn't liked it myself and took a break from HA until it became 8vs8 again. It was too limited in what you can do and will certainly not work on the current maps. It's allready too hard to balance the game for 8vs8 play. Creating 8vs8 (GvG) and 6vs6 (HA) again will create more problems.

QFT..

I keep loving how people think 6v6 made old school HA fun. No peepz, it was the fact that you didn't have to have 20 skills just in order to keep up with the rest.

Old-school KoTH was: Bring crazy build, smack some defence in there and off you go.

Current HoH is: bring crazy build, smack some defence in there, some snares, some hard interrupts, a song, a make haste, alot of snares, weapon of warding. Ow wait, now you have either of the following: "Hexway, sway, rspike or shitbalanced"