Curse

bungusmaximus · Aug 05, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

I would like to hear everyones views on the current state of monks. There are a few things in particular that I wanna point out. Note that they're only examples, maybe there's more ways to look at it, but in that case, fire away plz.

-TA monk bars are quite different from what they were in the past, I got a feeling that prot is going down the drain nowadays, not sure if I like that.

-Monks often use stances such as disciplined stance, shield stance and whatnot making them a PITA to kill, problematic? or a matter of learning how to play GW? What to think of stuff like Shield Bash, is it fun or lame?

-Smiters boon gave birth to quite a number of defensive templates, a good example is the 3-way monk teams people run in TA nowadays. Smiters were abused in the past as it were, they didn't need a buff to make that possible again imho.

I really can't write down what my gripe is with monks in PvP nowadays, they just feel totally wrong. Smiting prayers is insane these days, stuff like Patient spirit heals through the roofs at very low spec, and then there's the rather new spotless skills.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a NURF NURF OMG I Cant kill monks thread, but several seasoned players I know complain a lot about the current monk meta. Might be nice to consult the people here on guru about monks.

Crimso · Aug 05, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I think it's a case of that they can do everything on a single bar: have great healing capabilties, remove conditions and deal damage while at the same time being able to keep themselves safe through the stances.

I find them to be technically the best class in PvP, they can do what other classes can do while filling their primary role. Unlike other classes that if they were focusing on multiple skill lines would have to specialise their skill bar for the chosen one(e.g. the way a Bunny Thumper wouldn't be using a attribute line for self healing). Where as the Monk can take skills from many of it's own lines and not be disadvantaged.

makosi · Aug 05, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

-TA monk bars are quite different from what they were in the past, I got a feeling that prot is going down the drain nowadays, not sure if I like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

-Monks often use stances such as disciplined stance, shield stance and whatnot making them a PITA to kill, problematic? or a matter of learning how to play GW? What to think of stuff like Shield Bash, is it fun or lame?

Self-targetting protection spells like Guardian, Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond are enchantments. The introduction and buff of spammable, punishing enchantment removal skills such as Corrupt Enchantment and Rip Enchantment have made these prot spells extremely fragile, especially in a 4v4 scenario. Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond are too expensive at 10 energy for one monk considering that monks don't really have energy management skills. There's Divine Spirit but hey... it's 10 energy and gonna get corrupted.

People run these Tactics stances because they're not as easy to remove and there are too many lame button-bashing R/W RaO thumpers and axe-wielders as well as telespikers and the standard shock axe warrior. Guardian will be stripped or d-chopped and one copy of blind will be smited or dismissed off as soon as it is on. Those lame dual dom Signet of Midnight mesmers are just a response to the metagame. Lame meets lamer... not a good feedback cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

-Smiters boon gave birth to quite a number of defensive templates, a good example is the 3-way monk teams people run in TA nowadays. Smiters were abused in the past as it were, they didn't need a buff to make that possible again imho.

Smiter's Boon is one of those skills that buff and entire attribute. Historically, these have been abused, like Deadly Paradox, Divine Boon and, to a lesser extent Healer's Boon. I guess the dev team should have thought carefully before making another of these. The smite skills were fine before as offensive skills but now they're providing decent healing and reducing pressure to the extent that it is creating a fortress build.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 05, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

and isn't that to a certain degree overpowered?

To use your Bunny Thumper example, the ranger, as you pointed out, has to give up self healing and rely on the monk; however, the exchange is that he obtains one of the highest reliable dps's in the game. The new smiter monk template can compact decent healing, self protection, and damage int a single template that also has anti-knockdown capabilities (balthazar's pendelum) or permenant con tanking (melundrua's resielience) or excellent anti-melee capabilities ("your all alone!"). Also, they can achieve all this and have an exceleent source of energy management in castigation signet.

Needless to say, the problem with this new template is the fact that they can achieve all this with immunity to most counters. Hex one out? The others will just smite hex and deal excellent aoe damage. E-Denial? Say hello to castigation signet. Enchantment removal? O wait, smiters boon has only a 10 secnd recharge so when you riped that enchantment, the monk immediatly reapplies it. Frankly, the only real counter against them is having an excellent magebane ranger that can shut down smite conditon and hex, and even then you still might be run over.

You can tell i truly do not like this tempate, and have probably exploited longer than most people here.

If I had to choose a breaking point for it, it would be smiters boon. I would allow it to be effectively shut down by enchant removal, so the monks would once again have to choose between healing or ding damage, not both.

That went on way longer than expected.

Strife17 · Aug 05, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

you haven't played monk in RA for a while did you?

Sins, warriors, mesmers.. find it unnecesary to bring any self heal. and by self heal i mean condition removal or hex removal or a bit heal. even a simple shield bash does miracles.

as a monk it IS hard to keep a sin alive with 7 Attack skills or hundred blades warriors with 400hp

Fuzzy Taco · Aug 05, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Speaking as a TAer:

Smiting, with its new Smiter's Boon and 3 sec cooldown Reversal of Damage, got picked up pretty quickly. These guys are too powerful, flexible, and solid to pass up. the healing they can generate is amazing considering they only spec into two att lines (barring MR or a stance) and they have such excellent secondary effects. they can keep a team clean while dealing decent supplemental damage and, since their elite is so variable, they are insanely universal.

Smiting aside, i dislike meta monks as a whole at the moment, at least in arenas. WoH and its Spotless skills and Vig Spirit has become indispensable - even a perfectly-played ZB bar can't match up to Patient (and even Vigorous) healing absurdly well through pressure, nor does it have the same ability to keep the team as hex-free as the Spotless spells. Patient Spirit and WoH have brought us into a meta that leaves Prot almost entirely out of the picture (i see, on a regular basis, good g6+ monks who drop Prot altogether) because it's simply too easy to blow up with the enchantment removal available right now.

The painful thing is, though you can try to be different and run away from the smiters and abundant WoH meta, you won't match up to their effectiveness as a build. they're not super overpowered, they're a monk's most powerful option to keep his team and himself alive (Stanced WoH bars) or keep his team clean while getting some yellow numbers out of it (Smiter's Booners.)

The last thing i want to put in is that i get kind of sad when i see the pure healing that a dual Boon Boonsig smiter is capable of, specced only into DF and Smite. add Shield Bash to that, and you're golden.

glountz · Aug 05, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Speaking as a former and now an occasionnal TAer:

Smiter's boon is actually an elite Divine boon. Compare the healing / mana cost ratio.

Now, smite can cure hexes, conds and do prots (reversal of damage). Smite has become very, very powerful with EotN. It has become a second prot line.

Enchant removal fest has pushed monk bars to gimmicks ones.

And finally, A-Net just doesn't have any clue on balance. Just compare, for example these two rit spells : [SKILL]Mending Grip[/SKILL] and [SKILL]Mend Body and Soul[/SKILL]. The first has slower casting, heal less, has double recharge compared to the second, and it's conditionnal effect is less easy to meet than the second. However it has been introduced after the second, so they had something to compare. Did they think before making it? Obviously not.

That's why you shouldn't bother anymore about this kind of problems.

Krill · Aug 05, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I don't blame TA monks that bring shield bash and disciplined stance, because there are simply too many button mash builds that can kill them strait away without at least one of them. Personally though I still like to play the GoLE ZB bar, with spirit bond and RoF.

It's obvious why prot became less attractive all around though in the format:

[rip enchantment] - Recharges waaaay to fast...

[rend enchantments] - Back to 30 seconds please.

[corrupt enchantment] - It is an elite....still a tad too powerful though imo.

[golden fox strike] [wild strike] [shattering assault] - LoL

Sun Fired Blank · Aug 05, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

The key problems for TA are:

- hexes versus hex removal
- foul feast versus condition removal on your monk
- just about everything versus prot
- dependence on your elite to shift red bars
- being able to push red bars quickly and entirely out of danger, or to prevent such danger to start

The next update (on Thursday?) is unlikely to fix every one of these problems, the arena monk bar is likely to remain WoH forever, even if you receive minor updates to protection prayers and minor nerfs to Healing Prayers, and I hardly anticipate such updates. Even if the update fixes the problem of hex stacks versus Spotless Mind / Cure Hex, conditions versus Foul Feast, and everything versus prot, ZB is unable to manipulate red bars nearly as well, there's very limited incentive to use multiple prots, and most of those prots are functional at 11.

FoxBat · Aug 06, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Shouldn't this be in the TA forum?

The problem there is the entire TA meta, monks are just the symptom.

Seraphim of Chaos · Aug 06, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Smiting finally got buffed over the piece of crap it was a year ago. I'm glad.

Zuranthium · Aug 06, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I'm just going to wait for the update that's a few days away before chiming in about further changes I'd like to see. There will be a lot of things to play around with.

~Z

Krill · Aug 06, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

stuff like Patient spirit heals through the roofs at very low spec, and then there's the rather new spotless skills.

I missed this part...but at least they fixed the bug with patient spirit and those ugly HC monks.

A few days ago I was asked to run this in TA:

[build=OwEkUhQ5T1wkGRD4dzmGEYNheBeB]

And was kicked for refusing to run it because it didn't even have guardian. The entire mindset of the game has changed...have everyone on your team besides the warrior run shield bash and disciplined stance and u don't need any prot I guess.

Div · Aug 06, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Monks? The more the merrier.

Nothing as awesome as winning halls or whatnot with 5 monks.

urania · Aug 06, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

izzy hates monks, so he makes things hard for them. solution: bring moooar monks \o/.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I missed this part...but at least they fixed the bug with patient spirit and those ugly HC monks.

A few days ago I was asked to run this in TA:

[build=OwEkUhQ5T1wkGRD4dzmGEYNheBeB]

And was kicked for refusing to run it because it didn't even have guardian. The entire mindset of the game has changed...have everyone on your team besides the warrior run shield bash and disciplined stance and u don't need any prot I guess.

be glad u at least still have cond removal xD

Strife17 · Aug 06, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

monking is hard in RA, because most don't find it necesarry to have 500+hp and don't bring any self heal. i'm talking about 7 Attack skills sins. 7 curse spell necros. 7 Fire skills ele's

in TA, monking is just annoying because of the magebanes nowadays.. and you always run into one if you are 20-30 wins.

and if team dies: it is obviously your fault. lmao

Frank Dudenstein · Aug 06, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

As was already stated ... monking USED to be about active prot combined with midline dmamge mitigation ... these allowed youto get away with limited heals.

But the advent of ridiculous enchat rips, midline shutdown (hello magebane), and supercharged melee builds (hello rao) all mean that you need ridiculous heals (woh), non-enchant-based defense (blind, stances) ... and supplemental heals from the midline help greatly.

Is the new state better than the old? That's subjective I guess .. but going back would require nerfing ALOT of things ... ALOT ... and frankly that's not likely to happen.

urania · Aug 06, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

As was already stated ... monking USED to be about active prot combined with midline dmamge mitigation ... these allowed youto get away with limited heals.

But the advent of ridiculous enchat rips, midline shutdown (hello magebane), and supercharged melee builds (hello rao) all mean that you need ridiculous heals (woh), non-enchant-based defense (blind, stances) ... and supplemental heals from the midline help greatly.

Is the new state better than the old? That's subjective I guess .. but going back would require nerfing ALOT of things ... ALOT ... and frankly that's not likely to happen.

couldnt have said it better myself.

Lame Goes Forums · Aug 07, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Smiting has always been around and even before the buffs it could have been easily abused, it just took people a while to realize it.

As for the state of healing, not that many people use CE, and most of the other enchant removals can be dealt with, if you still want to use prots. If you spec 8+1 into healing prayers and take Patient over RoF with a ZB bar, it would be better than the old Gift of Health ZB.

kosh · Aug 07, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lame Goes Forums

Smiting has always been around and even before the buffs it could have been easily abused, it just took people a while to realize it.

As for the state of healing, not that many people use CE, and most of the other enchant removals can be dealt with, if you still want to use prots. If you spec 8+1 into healing prayers and take Patient over RoF with a ZB bar, it would be better than the old Gift of Health ZB.

the thing is... zb heals for 170, +32 Df at 14/10/10 att spread. Patient under HB gives you 171 at the same spread. now im not saying Zb suck or anything close, but with the casting time, the conditional effect and the per heals, Patient under Hb just win it in any way u looked at it. this as an example of over heals skills, and still have usage for HB for more skills.

protection got lost in the game (at least in the low,mid range pvp areas) beause heals just push rad bars up, and with alot more strength then in the past (Woh biff was imo the big push for it)that, with the 2 spotless, HB buff, and basically heald are easier on ppl then prot. it seems to me the skills like Patient are making monks, lazy and stupid.

since u cant pre prot your best chance is to try catch it as it happen, or just spam it alot. if you spam it alot as like putting on randomly on people (that case you see often in RA\TA) your asking to get diversion on it, on the other hand if you try catch a spike (lets say you see 2 war rushing you) so will prob wait a sec and then throw it, as war if u switch targets enough (or as any good dmg dealer) u can drain a monk pretty good that way, start slashing, see prot move on.

anyhow just my thoughts. over buffed heals make silly lazy monks.

Helios.