Curse

Bront · May 20, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

bah
they say don't mob always
but the enemies mob and cap fast and win -.-

Mobing seems to work when you're ahead, as you can roll over just about everything, and leave a small crew behind to actually do the cap while the mob keeps rolling. Done correctly, you can have 8 people capping while 4 follow up after they convert the shrine.

At least that was my experience when I did some AB this weekend.

Generaly, I found capping when you're behind, picking your fights carefully (only when you can overwhelm the opponent, or when you're ahead and keeping them from capping), and being careful helps.

scorduan · May 27, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

One Noob's thoughts:

Never seriously take on a fight that you can't win. Players waiting around for res don't do much good.

Exception: Take on a fight that you can't win, when you can gain something from delaying/distracting the other team.

My favorite example of this is when the other team is inside the base, and you pop up and focus 8 players on you. You last a little bit (not long), and then you res and do it all again. If I can tie up 8 players with 1-4 players, then I pray that the rest of my team is smart enough to be outcapping their other 4.

Robbert Monga · May 30, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Hey ppl, I thought this might be a good thread to discuss how important do you guys think how important capping vs. fighting is.

Because this can encompass so many factors, Imma try to specify it with certain criteria

Catergories:

1. Favorable map vs. Unfavorable map
2. Class type/specialty
3. Losing vs. Winning
4. What to do if someone is capping behind you?
5. When will you fight? When will you cap?
6. Over all rating importance (opinion) 1-10 1 being least, 10 most

Please list any other important factors that I may be missing. It would benefit the thread. Please don't post nonsense or crap that will kill this thread.

I'll start

1. For favorable maps, I will tend to fight a little bit more but for unfavorable maps, I will cap for the most part.
2. The more AoE I have the more likely I cap. I do a bit more fighting when I have at least 2 of Sins/Dervs or certain eles/rangers/warriors.
3. When having slight lead, 80% capping with big lead ~60-70% capping
4. Depends on the size of the capping team. If its a mob, run. If its a 4 v. 4, judgment call. If its smaller I still tend to cap unless I suspect a proficient capper.
5. Favorable numbers, good team, enemy has incompetent team or good cappers. An example in which I prefer to fight is during the beginning of the game on the unfavorable map. I would lead the team to the ele shrine, get the elite ele and fight the first group. Why? 5 v 4 is favorable and because I'm picky of who I AB with. I will be capping 95% of the time other than this.
6. Capping: 8 Fighting: 2

you have good "categories" but you fail to make proper conclusions:

1) Map
Saltspray is a pure fighting map. Whoever tries to cap on it will lose every time. Whichever teams first forms a mob and start roaming between two res shrines will win easily. Cappers just dont cut it here. There are no strong NPCs. There are no multiple paths around to escape aggressive opponent.
In fact I don't recall a single match on Saltspray being won/lost by points. I.e. there is no judges' decision here. The only way to win is completely waste the opposing teams.

Grenz and Etnaran are exactly opposite... for exactly the same reason. There are plenty of ways around. Most shrines have pretty strong NPCs that will wipe your regular joe-wammo + narutard (tm) random pug like nothing. Organized capping team can charge from shrine to shrine like a rocket and totaly outcap those trying to mob on res shrine in the middle.
It is still possible to win by fighting here, but it will take effort from more than just your group.

Both fort maps are compbination of cases above. Attacking team should be focused on capping. Why? There are plenty of strong NPCs to kill, especially inside fort. Fighting and losing people can put your team pretty far apart, with obvious consequences.
Defending team should be more fighting oriented. Why? Your base (res point) is always close by and there are no strong NPCs to fight (other than NE res shrine with 2 eles and monk). You can always cut across your fort and join to help other teams.

2) Classes/builds.
Ok, lets be serious here - 99% of the people on AB districts have fighting builds. Very few of them are eles, and very few of those are actually have decent build. They claim to be cappers. They look for capping groups. They cry "OMG CAP U MORONS" after getting their back broken... but guess what - they are not cappers... not even close. Their pitty little minds stack in infinite loop that AB == capping and capping == win and they == cappers, but <insert random insult> <luxon|kurzick>s are mobbing them... but mobbing == lose... but they still lose to mob.

Overall I would call any group that stays together and have one proper nuker as a capping group. I personally prefer promise nuker and have yet to see anything that can clear shrine NPCs half as fast.

3) not sure what that means

4) I've seen plenty of times when groups would cap shrine and then run away seeing how enemy team is waiting just outside aggro bubble... Every time they've done it - they lost... miserably. If you gonna leave shrine to opponent capping right behind you - why bother capping? People don't seem to get that capturing shrine does not yield any points (other than for killing NPCs)... it is HOLDING THE SHRINE for 7 seconds that drives the score.
The only good reason to leave shrine to enemy is if you totaly outnumbered. Otherwise you should always fight. You get NPCs on your side and possible shrine bonus, and you are dam fool if you going to just give it away.

5) When being timeline of the match? One thing you noted right - even capping team should fight at the start when they get NPC ele. Otherwise I think it is totaly irrelevant... Do whatever you were going to do when you were forming your group and picking builds.

6) Overall I would say that capping is massively overrated. Easy way to win AB on any map is to break opponent on start. Most random puggers will fall appart and won't even attempt to regroup. Half of them will ragequit or just give up. At that point it doesn't matter how slow you cap - you will have nobody to compete for shrines with. Just farm points on the mob haters coming out of their base one by one... quick and easy.
So I would give fighting about 60% importance, while capping about 40%.

Lykan · Jun 05, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorduan

One Noob's thoughts:

Never seriously take on a fight that you can't win.

I like when the lone sins run around and teleport into a group of six enemies like critical defences makes them invincible.
Fun times

On topic - Staying in your teams and take on quick skirmishes while capping is how i try to play. If your stuck fighting a group for too long the other side can get the upper hand.

Martin Firestorm · Jun 05, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Overall I would say that capping is massively overrated.... So I would give fighting about 60% importance, while capping about 40%.

Not sure I agree with that, but overall a great post. Fighting is significant. Most matches that you win involve your team doing both. I'm just not sure about the 60/40 split. I'd say the opposite, maybe more like 30/70.

But geez, once you cap and see enemies moving toward the shrine, kick their ass if you can. You get points for the shrine and the kills, and take your foes out of the action for several crucial seconds. I played last night with a group of supposed cappers who ran to the next shrine as soon as we killed off everyone at the shrine we were capping--before we even capped the dern thing. I'd sit there by myself for what seemed like forever with with one pip on the cap bar while they were attacking the next shrine without their warrior.

The Meth · Jun 05, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The best possible play on a map like Grenz frontier, as one of the side teams, is to cap your initial shrine. Then, head towards the center shrine to push that team's opponent off, letting the other team that was mirroring you run past you. Once that other team commits to engaging your shrine, turn around, pinch them between your team and the NPCs, and wipe them. Then take their shrine.

95% of what you should know to be good at Alliance Battles can be gained by understanding the previous paragraph.

Heh, thats exactly what I always do. To expand on this strategy a bit, after you take their shrine, its best to then go to the forward middle shrine. After you take this its a good idea just to devote the team to defending both of the forward shrines you just captured. You can almost always do this easily with both the NPC advantage + buffs you receive, and when you do this you greatly help protect both the shrines you just captured. By stemming the flow of respawning players and forcing them into the far teleporter you aren't defending you are greatly limiting their mobility. This gives your team a huge advantage because instead of seeing every shrine capped behind their back, they can instead kill and enemy and KNOW that the enemy will have a hard time sneaking around to get back and cap. Nothing short of two good teams can usually take the shrines back from you, and by the time they start assaulting you like that its because they lost rest of the map

.

I'm sure this explanation confuses a few people who usually just run around randomly killing things but I can make some good drawings on the minimap ingame to explain it better.

To summarise: Cap a few shrines. Gank enemies when they try to cap yours. After you have enough shrines have your team dedicated to controlling locationally important shrines so that you also help protect the shrines behind yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorduan

One Noob's thoughts:

Never seriously take on a fight that you can't win. Players waiting around for res don't do much good.

Exception: Take on a fight that you can't win, when you can gain something from delaying/distracting the other team.

My favorite example of this is when the other team is inside the base, and you pop up and focus 8 players on you. You last a little bit (not long), and then you res and do it all again. If I can tie up 8 players with 1-4 players, then I pray that the rest of my team is smart enough to be outcapping their other 4.

This is very good advice as well. Distractions are good, fighting just to fight is bad. If a 4 person team can effectively hold off 6 people from a shrine or at the very least make the fight take forever, thats forcing the rest of the game into an 8v6 in your favor for the time. Taking advantage of NPC's and shrine buffs, again, can make this very possible even against equally skilled teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Overall I would say that capping is massively overrated. Easy way to win AB on any map is to break opponent on start. Most random puggers will fall appart and won't even attempt to regroup. Half of them will ragequit or just give up. At that point it doesn't matter how slow you cap - you will have nobody to compete for shrines with. Just farm points on the mob haters coming out of their base one by one... quick and easy.
So I would give fighting about 60% importance, while capping about 40%.

While I won't agree that its 'Massively Overrated' (if anything its just that holding is underrated), I completely agree a good starting momentum is huge. Get control and make them fight for it on your own turf where you have NPC and shrine bonus advantage and its a tough fight to for the rest of the match for them to catch back up. Sadly, the stereotype of the random pug being a useless animal is all too true, but try not to rely on it

There are some people that take the capping only idea way too damn far. Listen, if there are 4 players right behind you who cap your shrine 10 seconds after you left, you are useless, turn around and fight them off or you might as well not be there.

MasterSasori · Jun 06, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

you have good "categories" but you fail to make proper conclusions:

1) Map
Saltspray is a pure fighting map. Whoever tries to cap on it will lose every time. Whichever teams first forms a mob and start roaming between two res shrines will win easily. Cappers just dont cut it here. There are no strong NPCs. There are no multiple paths around to escape aggressive opponent.
In fact I don't recall a single match on Saltspray being won/lost by points. I.e. there is no judges' decision here. The only way to win is completely waste the opposing teams.

Grenz and Etnaran are exactly opposite... for exactly the same reason. There are plenty of ways around. Most shrines have pretty strong NPCs that will wipe your regular joe-wammo + narutard (tm) random pug like nothing. Organized capping team can charge from shrine to shrine like a rocket and totaly outcap those trying to mob on res shrine in the middle.
It is still possible to win by fighting here, but it will take effort from more than just your group.

Both fort maps are compbination of cases above. Attacking team should be focused on capping. Why? There are plenty of strong NPCs to kill, especially inside fort. Fighting and losing people can put your team pretty far apart, with obvious consequences.
Defending team should be more fighting oriented. Why? Your base (res point) is always close by and there are no strong NPCs to fight (other than NE res shrine with 2 eles and monk). You can always cut across your fort and join to help other teams.

2) Classes/builds.
Ok, lets be serious here - 99% of the people on AB districts have fighting builds. Very few of them are eles, and very few of those are actually have decent build. They claim to be cappers. They look for capping groups. They cry "OMG CAP U MORONS" after getting their back broken... but guess what - they are not cappers... not even close. Their pitty little minds stack in infinite loop that AB == capping and capping == win and they == cappers, but <insert random insult> <luxon|kurzick>s are mobbing them... but mobbing == lose... but they still lose to mob.

Overall I would call any group that stays together and have one proper nuker as a capping group. I personally prefer promise nuker and have yet to see anything that can clear shrine NPCs half as fast.

3) not sure what that means

4) I've seen plenty of times when groups would cap shrine and then run away seeing how enemy team is waiting just outside aggro bubble... Every time they've done it - they lost... miserably. If you gonna leave shrine to opponent capping right behind you - why bother capping? People don't seem to get that capturing shrine does not yield any points (other than for killing NPCs)... it is HOLDING THE SHRINE for 7 seconds that drives the score.
The only good reason to leave shrine to enemy is if you totaly outnumbered. Otherwise you should always fight. You get NPCs on your side and possible shrine bonus, and you are dam fool if you going to just give it away.

5) When being timeline of the match? One thing you noted right - even capping team should fight at the start when they get NPC ele. Otherwise I think it is totaly irrelevant... Do whatever you were going to do when you were forming your group and picking builds.

6) Overall I would say that capping is massively overrated. Easy way to win AB on any map is to break opponent on start. Most random puggers will fall appart and won't even attempt to regroup. Half of them will ragequit or just give up. At that point it doesn't matter how slow you cap - you will have nobody to compete for shrines with. Just farm points on the mob haters coming out of their base one by one... quick and easy.
So I would give fighting about 60% importance, while capping about 40%.

1. I totally agree with maps - I just didn't want to write out everything like you did. Keep it succinct as who wants to read an opening thread that looks like an encyclopedia? The one sentence is simply a general idea.

2. The more AoE you have, the faster it can be cleared unless as you said, you run something like the Promise Nuker. However, you may not be using your team's ability to the fullest extent if all you do is just capping. Sin's and Shock warriors were meant to kill and should do a bit more brawling.

3. I meant point lead. 50-100 is small, anything over 120ish is big. Course big lead can easily change depending on approach.

4. I don't mean just run to the next shrine and let a team capture right behind you - that would incredibly stupid. You need to pick your fights smart and that includes defending the shrine once in a while. Also if you wipe out by defending a shrine, you've just set your side back significantly. However, if you continue to cap away from the mob trajectory, you've guarantee points until another capping team takes it back.

As you said, you should leave the shrine only if there is a huge mob coming at your direction. But if you had kept up with movements, you should already know there is a mob coming in that direction.

5. Your score and the approach of your allies should determine what you do. If the other two teams are proficiently capping, your role as a capper is diminished and you should think of better ways to use your time. I don't see how you can possibly ignore this fact. Fighting vs. Capping in one of the most crucial judgment calls. I'm sure what you're thinking of is fighting v. capping exclusively.

6. WRONG. Capping is more important than fighting as long as you are smart about it and pick the right battles. I'm not referring to mindless capping at every shrine and totally abandoning it. Only idiot pugger will let the beginning determine the entire match, as a huge change in momentum can be accomplished by a single slip up. Any decent team will be able to regroup and become fully functional within a short period and therefore, there is no easy way out. The beginning momentum is definitely important, but not as much as you stress it to be.

Red Sand · Jun 07, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I agree with some of your points, but you might want to rethink your conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Saltspray is a pure fighting map. Whoever tries to cap on it will lose every time. Whichever teams first forms a mob and start roaming between two res shrines will win easily. Cappers just dont cut it here. There are no strong NPCs. There are no multiple paths around to escape aggressive opponent.
In fact I don't recall a single match on Saltspray being won/lost by points. I.e. there is no judges' decision here. The only way to win is completely waste the opposing teams.

I agree that Saltspray is a fighting map, but it's a "capture points and hold them" kinda map. Mobbing and fighting over the three shrines in the middle is useless unless you hold at least two shrines north or south.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Overall I would call any group that stays together and have one proper nuker as a capping group. I personally prefer promise nuker and have yet to see anything that can clear shrine NPCs half as fast.

Any team that clears shrines quickly and stays together to turn shrines over at the maximum rate can be considered a capping team. Personally, I think a balanced team build is well suited for capping and fighting, and I think any type of splits/solo capping is a losing tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

I've seen plenty of times when groups would cap shrine and then run away seeing how enemy team is waiting just outside aggro bubble... Every time they've done it - they lost... miserably. If you gonna leave shrine to opponent capping right behind you - why bother capping? People don't seem to get that capturing shrine does not yield any points (other than for killing NPCs)... it is HOLDING THE SHRINE for 7 seconds that drives the score.
The only good reason to leave shrine to enemy is if you totaly outnumbered. Otherwise you should always fight. You get NPCs on your side and possible shrine bonus, and you are dam fool if you going to just give it away.

QFT. If you are going to fight, fight where you are strongest and your opponent is weakest. Sun Tzu might have said that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

6) Overall I would say that capping is massively overrated.

I think you and I agree that you have to own shrines to make fighting tactics win and the only thing that drives the score is control of more shrines every 7 seconds. In the end, it seems to me that your post supports the capping argument better than the fighting one.

Edit: removed "guy" from 4th comment

Red Sand · Jun 07, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

I like when the lone sins run around and teleport into a group of six enemies like critical defences makes them invincible.

Could someone please explain to me why every freaking time I'm in an AB, some solo Sin jumps on me like he is going to gank my 600hp, highly armored warrior while I am supported by a Ranger, an Ele and a Healer Monk? It's like these guys suffer from "a severe case of failure of the victim selection process".

Bobby2 · Jun 07, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Could someone please explain to me why every freaking time I'm in an AB, some solo Sin jumps on me like he is going to gank my 600hp, highly armored warrior while I am supported by a Ranger, an Ele and a Healer Monk? It's like these guys suffer from "a severe case of failure of the victim selection process".

Because [skill]critical defenses[/skill] makes you a melee pwner - duhhh. SHOULD be horribly ineffective (why would you not just kite off its duration) but invariably draws a great many Wammos to the boasting Sin allowing him to crit-refresh indefinitely.

I suspect a secret subsect of failed Wammos is behind this.

Look for: [skill]live vicariously[/skill][skill]flashing blades[/skill]... they exist

MasterSasori · Jun 07, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Could someone please explain to me why every freaking time I'm in an AB, some solo Sin jumps on me like he is going to gank my 600hp, highly armored warrior while I am supported by a Ranger, an Ele and a Healer Monk? It's like these guys suffer from "a severe case of failure of the victim selection process".

The same reason why some sins use [locust's fury]. They don't know any better.

Robbert Monga · Jun 07, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

I think you and I agree that you have to own shrines to make fighting tactics win and the only thing that drives the score is control of more shrines every 7 seconds. In the end, it seems to me that your post supports the capping argument better than the fighting one.

No, you have to own ressurection shrine to make fighting efficient. The rest you can overtake later, when enemies are broken and demoralized.
And no, I don't support capping more than fighting. Capping is just a side nessesity, you have to couple with every once in a while. Shrines are the places where you generally find some nubs to kill. Thats all.

Red Sand · Jun 08, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

No, you have to own ressurection shrine to make fighting efficient. The rest you can overtake later, when enemies are broken and demoralized.

Holding the resurrection shrine is only effective if you strike out to cap from it and return to it, or you hold it and your opponents fail to take it from you. Your winning tactics rely on your opponents feeding the mob, which is a losing tactic.

All winning fighting tactics are dependent on holding more shrines than your opponents while you fight, and therefore are dependent upon capping.

Robbert Monga · Jun 08, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Holding the resurrection shrine is only effective if you strike out to cap from it and return to it, or you hold it and your opponents fail to take it from you. Your winning tactics rely on your opponents feeding the mob, which is a losing tactic.

All winning fighting tactics are dependent on holding more shrines than your opponents while you fight, and therefore are dependent upon capping.

my tactic relies on one thing only - presence of opponent. Feeding mob or not, thats not their choice. I hunt people down and run them over. Whatever "smart" tactic you may come up with - you either turn around and face me or lose.
Oh and btw, whole "mob" thing is overrated to. People cry "ZOMG NUB MOBBERS" getting killed by 4 people team. Its a meaningless insult, nothing more.

Riotgear · Jun 08, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The best possible play on a map like Grenz frontier, as one of the side teams, is to cap your initial shrine. Then, head towards the center shrine to push that team's opponent off, letting the other team that was mirroring you run past you. Once that other team commits to engaging your shrine, turn around, pinch them between your team and the NPCs, and wipe them. Then take their shrine.

The problem comes when one of those other teams RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs up. This is especially common if I get stuck on the left side of the attacking faction, and pinching them between the NPCs doesn't mean shit when the only NPCs that aren't speedbumps are the elementalists. Usually it goes something like this:

- Follow your routine
- The opposing team captures the air elementalist shrine
- The idiots on that side of the map get wiped on the elementalist shrine
- The opposing team captures the Necromancer and Mesmer shrines
- The team you were going to take out on your initial shrine gets reinforcements from the opposite shrine and you are now outnumbered.
- Of your allied teams, one's reviving on the rez shrine, one is already there. Both are going to go to the far end of the map, possible half-wipe on the Elementalist shrine, possibly scatter to the other two, leaving the resurrect shrine open to attack where things will quickly go to shit.

Bobby2 · Jun 08, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I laugh all the time on shallow maps... at all the guys (both sides!) trying to hold the rez shrine at all costs. It is a vital shrine because it provides a quick route to every shrine on the map... by the same token it can be reached easily from anywhere.

1. Measly. NPC. Just saying - sometimes it's better to stay back for a while.

darkdreamr · Jun 23, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Whatever you are doing should be for the purpose of gaining an advantage over the other team, not capping or fighting per se. Capping shrines is one way to do that, but running around capping shrines will not win the game because the other team has no disadvantage. This tends to let the defending team win because of NPC numbers.

The trick is to engage in battles you can win as often as possible to give your team a numbers advantage and take a lead in the shrine capping race. Likewise you don't usually want to fight a losing battle because that will give the other team the advantage.

Taking out a 4 person team is effectively capping a shrine because of the minute-or-so duration where the opposing team cannot cap a shrine. Or you can think of it as being able to cap an actual shrine while your opponents are dead, putting you ahead.

So how do you decide what to fight? Just look at who has the advantage in the encounter. If your whole team tries to take down a terra tank and ranger, it's gonna take you a while and the rest of your team will be fighting/capping 2 men down. If it takes you a minute to kill them, you've already negated any advantage you would have had by killing them.

Conversely if your 4-man team raids the fort on Ancestral or Kaanai and can hold out against 6 or 7 of their team for a while, you will build up an advantage in manpower even if you die eventually. Or let's say you play a sin and there's a huge mob of 8 players at one shrine. It would give your team a huge time advantage to harass the back of the mob so that it has to stop moving to kill you. Every second that those 8 players are stopped is a huge advantage for the rest of your team.

Well, I guess you get what I mean by now. When you're on a map that gives you a disadvantage, you have to fight and win *more* than usual because you will lose the capping race for sure due to number of NPCs and the positioning of the shrines. If you're on an advantageous map you can play more defensively. Unfortunately this is AB so
1) the rest of your team will probably not be smart enough to use the time and manpower advantages you are giving them.
2) the other team will probably be idiots meaning you win regardless of strategy.
And so it all boils down to random chance, unless you sync 3 alliance teams in or something.

Bobby2 · Jun 24, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Yea rite? Most of those challengers are Glad's Def Wammo's or have some other horrid tank build. No respect.

Axel Zinfandel · Jul 06, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Fighting is generally more enjoyable. Taking out an entire huge Mob with [Deep Freeze], [Arcane Echo] + [Savannah Heat], [Bed of Coals], [Searing Heat] spam is quite enjoyable

...or something XD

Unreal Havoc · Jul 07, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I prefer skirmishing and harassing players into not capping. Anytime I see a Nuker or Minion Master, he's getting taken out as quickly as possible to hinder the other teams capping and mobbing capabilities.