Curse

Syntonic · May 07, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I'm not terribly sure how effective you guys are at staying alive while being able to kill everything in your path in some timely fashion with just a derv, 2 eles and a random. Your account makes it sound like you suffered no casualties which quite frankly, trying to skirmish without some form of backline will more than likely end up in death and/or you'll simply be too slow at killing because your bar is filled with self heals/tank skills. Even then, I imagine you'd have to retreat more often than not or forced to choose specific routes since even with your typical balanced party (backline monk, support/damage mitigation, frontline damage, extra - normally shrine capper) has a hard enough time in AB.

itsvictor · May 07, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

1. Doesn't matter, adjust accordingly to the situation, you can lose on favorable maps too, thats when you should know to cap if the other team is closing in on points or is already ahead
2. I play primarily melee classes, I kill stuff, I just add 1 pip to a shrine and leeroy in w/ monk support
3. Cap more when losing, get a little laid back while winning (however be aware of what other teams are doing)
4. Stop, turn around, /roll If you can't do this, might wanna re-adjust team...
5. Fight when there are enemy dots in mah radar range or easily killable, or when I see someone I know and wanna sit on their face...Capping when it's needed...cough like when the other teams are busy already fighting and I'm free...
6. 50/50 it's really situational...

EDIT: This is my playing style, otherwise I would agree with Cabra (Hi Cab :P) on what your priorities should be)

Makkert · May 07, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

There is no real answer on this.
It's dependant on the time left in the match (near end match fighting becomes more favourable), dependant on the opposition (weak opponents means quick kills), on being ahead or behind (behind usually means weak allies / enemy mob. capping means trying to ninja your way out of it and spreading out the enemy), on your allies (do they cap or more likely, fail at capping?) and enemy movement (speed that they cap at).

Red Sand · May 07, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

I'm not terribly sure how effective you guys are at staying alive while being able to kill everything in your path in some timely fashion with just a derv, 2 eles and a random.

In my opinion. We weren't effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

Your account makes it sound like you suffered no casualties which quite frankly, trying to skirmish without some form of backline will more than likely end up in death and/or you'll simply be too slow at killing because your bar is filled with self heals/tank skills.

There was one battle that I died more than four times, otherwise I think we held together pretty well, though we did not come through every battle unscathed. I died more frequently than the Eles, probably because they had hex snares and better heals. Everyone had self heals, both of the Eles were monk secondaries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

Even then, I imagine you'd have to retreat more often than not or forced to choose specific routes since even with your typical balanced party (backline monk, support/damage mitigation, frontline damage, extra - normally shrine capper) has a hard enough time in AB.

Since our PUG members sometime stayed, sometimes found the mob, sometimes solo capped, we did have to adjust our tactics accordingly. We had to bypass the other team when the odds were definately against us.

I did not lead my squad from fight to fight, I did lead my team from shrine to shrine capping, but I did not avoid the fights I would normally have if I was trying to cap and build a lead. My team did not pay attention to the score, or who had how many flags. We lost 5 of five, with only one game close.

Playing my normal team and tactics we probably would have won 3 of 5 but you never really know right?

MasterSasori, I didn't forget, I've just been trying to gain enthusiam for this subject, again. I'll answer your OP later today.

N1ghtstalker · May 07, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

bah
they say don't mob always
but the enemies mob and cap fast and win -.-

RhanoctJocosa · May 07, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

There is no real answer on this.
It's dependant on the time left in the match (near end match fighting becomes more favourable), dependant on the opposition (weak opponents means quick kills), on being ahead or behind (behind usually means weak allies / enemy mob. capping means trying to ninja your way out of it and spreading out the enemy), on your allies (do they cap or more likely, fail at capping?) and enemy movement (speed that they cap at).

QFT

It really depends. If each team is capping clockwise, say, but you're constantly behind simply because the opp. caps faster you need to mix things up or you'll end up losing. PuGs make this mistake too often.

Sun Fired Blank · May 07, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

If you fight, you have to deck the other group quickly. In my experience, it's often a nonfactor if you hold one shrine for ten seconds or five minutes; your team is unlikely to exploit your sacrifice. The only excuse to hold a shrine or fight an extended skirmish is if you can:

1) Do it reactively and using fewer people than the other side; your monk or ranger stays behind to prevent a shrine cap by a nuker or a small group.
2) Your shrine is the only shrine left for the other side to cap; you're in front of a very large mob, and you can hold for a reasonable amount of time before retreating with minimal casualties.

I rarely bother to fight any encounter unless I think my group can wipe the other group in roughly thirty seconds.

Bobby2 · May 07, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

bah
they say don't mob always
but the enemies mob and cap fast and win -.-

The situation you describe is that of the 'steamroller' effect - 2 out of 3 teams brawling and winning of the team pitted against them. This allows them to mob in front of the opposing team's base in relative security of the back shrines not being capped.

This is the one situation in which it is wise for both sides to mob, as it is extremely difficult for an uncoordinated team to bust through the mob and regroup to start capping the back shrines again.

I've asked around and it is horrifying to see how few ABers ever use the mini-map (U, people!!!!!)

Alleji · May 07, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

If you fight, you have to deck the other group quickly. In my experience, it's often a nonfactor if you hold one shrine for ten seconds or five minutes; your team is unlikely to exploit your sacrifice. The only excuse to hold a shrine or fight an extended skirmish is if you can:

1) Do it reactively and using fewer people than the other side; your monk or ranger stays behind to prevent a shrine cap by a nuker or a small group.
2) Your shrine is the only shrine left for the other side to cap; you're in front of a very large mob, and you can hold for a reasonable amount of time before retreating with minimal casualties.

I rarely bother to fight any encounter unless I think my group can wipe the other group in roughly thirty seconds.

IMO another situation where it is profitable to hold a shrine is the res shrine on etnaran/grenz.

In my experience most people underrate the importance of the res shrine on those two maps for both sides. Holding the res shrine lets the attacking team (lux on grenz/kurz on etnaran) nullify the map disadvantage - longer distance from spawn point to shrines. Likewise, for the defending team it's important to keep the res shrine in order to keep the map advantage.

Of course, a team of four people constantly standing on the res if it's not getting attacked is a bad idea, but if it is getting attacked you should certrainly defend it. Or if you have a choice of stopping a cap on the res or taking another shrine, you should always choose the res.

Red Sand · May 07, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

I was reluctant to get into another long discussion on the benefits of Capping vs Fighting in AB, but I didn't want to ignore MasterSasori's thread.

1. Favorable map vs. Unfavorable map:

I prefer to play on Grenth Frontier or Entaran Keys, underdog status is preferred. I like playing those maps, for the most part my squad does too. We tend to cap more on these maps and fight later.

I do not mind playing on Kaanai Canyon or Ancestral Lands, underdog status is not a concern. My team will blow 2 doors and go inside for the inner shrines to take pressure off the bridge. My team will repair doors and lock teams inside with us to kill them. I believe we tend to fight a little bit more (and earlier) on these maps than we do on GF or EK.

The only map I hate is Saltspray Beach. It seems that we are more likely to lose on that map than on GF or EK, and because of this, we are more likely to fight on that map than cap. We play a defensive, fighting game on this map, trying to control four or more shrines with our team. Our usual tactic is to capture and control one rez, the nearest equipment stations and the center. I think the shrines are too spread out and teams trying to figure out how circle cap fail. The only good thing about SB is that the opposing team tends to always come from the direction of their base, or from the center.

2. Class type/specialty:

I usually play with my guild squad, a balanced team built around a Warrior and a Monk. Our support chars usually will be some combination of midline or frontline toons. We use Ventrilo. Occasionally we will coordinate two teams in one AB.

80 percent of the time, I play a Cripslash Warrior. I play a Interrupt/Conditions Ranger if we have a better Warrior than me, or when I get burnt out. Occasionally I will play a WoH Monk give our regular Monks a break. When I PUG, I play a Cripshot Dervish/Ranger.

3. Losing vs. Winning:

We cap. We believe the most important thing is, every 7 seconds, to have more flags than the enemy. We have fallen back and let a group take a rez shrine on the bridge in KC/AL and then engaged and wiped them on the equipment station, then go back and recap the rez while they are rezzing on it. I think my team is pretty damn good at fighting but I know that we can be beat by a PUG. It happens. If we are losing by a big margin, we will still cap, but will engage opposing teams, not the mob, at every opportunity.

4. What to do if someone is capping behind you?

If it is the mob, we will circle around and cap behind them. We don't feed the mob. If it is a group, and we are short on flags, we may wait for them on our shrine and defend it when they come for it, so that we don't keep trading shrines. Both will be dependent on what the score is and how many flags we own. The more flags and the more points, the more safe it is to engage the enemy.

5. When will you fight? When will you cap?

We cap as our priority until we have established a good lead, approximately 100 points, and then we relax and tend to kill more in between capping. My team pays attention to the score, and plays with the mission map open because we have frequently seen 100 point leads go away when our side failed to control the map and the shrines. We do not fight teams on shrines that they own, only between shrines or on shrines we own.

During normal play we engage only to kill solo's or duos who try to take us out. If engaged by a full team, and we are better than they are, we will let them go if they disengage. If they insist on fighting to the last, we will wipe their team, but we'd prefer to leave one or two standing, especially if they are far away from their rez. We prefer to only pass out free rides back to the rez for half a squad.

My group will always take free rides back to the rez and regroup, or head for the rez if we lose a team mate. We have been known to bring rez sigs in AB just because we can. We use them to rez our monk if necessary and keep capping/killing.

We try not to kill people on the way to the rez shrine. While it's satifying to kill them again after they rez, it's also pretty dumb to give someone a free ride to the place you are attacking.

6. Over all rating importance (opinion) 1-10 1 being least, 10 most

IDK. I don't think that a numeric value is a good way of putting it, because tactics depend on the map, your team and your opponent. If you have to have a number, I'd say capping beats killing 9 to 5.

Grenths Ire · May 08, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

you win by capping
not fighting
fighting is a waste of time, the only thing i waste time killing is AI Shrine Guardians.

Bobby2 · May 08, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

If there's a Monk standing behind the NPCs you're wailing on, you may well want to reconsider your tactics...

Jam Jar · May 08, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Capping is definately better than fighting. Fighting wastes time. There's also a chance that your team will get wiped. If you encounter an enemy force, consider running away rather than fight to both distract and get yourself into a better position.

kranius · May 08, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

well we explode stuff when we mob, we alomost never get wiped in skirmishes

it is true that capping > mobbing, but fighting when both teams are 450+ score is win, as i know we will score a lot this way.

MasterSasori · May 08, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranius

well we explode stuff when we mob, we alomost never get wiped in skirmishes

it is true that capping > mobbing, but fighting when both teams are 450+ score is win, as i know we will score a lot this way.

Well when things get that close, we either cap faster or start engaging in battle. It really depends on the map I guess.

GourangaPizza · May 13, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

When my side loses by more than 100-200 points, I will just fight; to heck with capping. You gain more kills capping than fighting over the same duration of time.

Zorgy · May 17, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

100% capping.....& fighting if we have a real advantage...for the fun.

May I remind you that if you own 5 shrines, one dead foe = 3 points instead of 2....so just cap folks & you will win faster.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Have fun.

Noob = player with an empty skull. I see lots in AB, even R5+....They like to gather like lemmings & run to suicide

AB is a real fun when well played, random adds challenge.

Covah · May 17, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

The number of points you get per kill is determined by how many flags you have. So capping > killing

Ensign · May 17, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

The best possible play on a map like Grenz frontier, as one of the side teams, is to cap your initial shrine. Then, head towards the center shrine to push that team's opponent off, letting the other team that was mirroring you run past you. Once that other team commits to engaging your shrine, turn around, pinch them between your team and the NPCs, and wipe them. Then take their shrine.

95% of what you should know to be good at Alliance Battles can be gained by understanding the previous paragraph.

moriz · May 17, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by me in another thread

the "cap-necro-shrine-and-rush-the-rez-shrine" tactic can be good or bad, depending on the situation and what happens afterwards.

for that tactic to be effective, the team that just rushed the rez shrine needs to be aware enough to double back onto the necro shrine after capping the rez shrine. this forces a very favourable matchup, since the attacking group would've already engaged the necros and are suffering from the effects of hexes. even if they have a nuker and can clear the necros quickly, at least you'll know the nuker is recharging and can be ignored as you wipe out the rest of the team. then, proceed onto the warrior shrine uncontested.

so this opening move pretty much ensure that your side (that is the defending side) will control the rez shrine, the necro shrine, and the warrior shrine. it doesn't matter if the necro shrine is empty, because you sent two groups back into their base for 20 seconds, and the remaining group is in no position to threaten the necro shrine.

good to know we both agree

and just to expand on what ensign said: that tactic will only work if you are on the defending side, and only on the left side (necro shrine for grenz frontier, mesmers on etnaran keys). the reason is that the distance between all the other shrines to the central rez shrine is simply too far. by the time you've doubled back to your first shrine, the team that you let past you would've already capped that shrine, and now you're at a disadvantage.