Curse

Burton2000 · Jul 22, 2008, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Make [natural stride] fail if you are enchanted or hexed when you use it and I think it would be balanced enough. With that in place I wouldn't even have a problem with it returned to its original duration.

I don't see the problem with natural stride its perfectly balanced now.

kvndoom · Jul 22, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

I don't see the problem with natural stride its perfectly balanced now.

I agree it's really not a problem skill. The problem is that it was so much better than [escape] that the elite got buffed to where it is now just to keep up, which of course has led to our beloved R/D friends. The Dev notes said as much when Escape did get buffed. A nerf to Escape would again make it worse than its non-elite cousin. Not that many people would mind, but Izzy wants the elite to be better to warrant its existence.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 22, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

A nerf to Escape would again make it worse than its non-elite cousin. Not that many people would mind, but Izzy wants the elite to be better to warrant its existence.

Hence why many things are broken, I wouldn't mind it too much if it were 25% faster and 75% chance to block attack skills so at least you could build of the mofo. Block stances have always been a problem think back to distortion, now with that nerfed most other block stances seem like gold in comparison, wonder what happened....

Shadowspawn X · Jul 22, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I think there is balance with the ranger stances, because there is so many skills that end a stance or are unblockable. However why did they change the rangers stances from evade to block? Taking evade out the game had exactly what effect?

A good melee build peels away a stance like an onion especially sins. They got sooooo many unblockable skills.

Shendaar · Jul 22, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

A good melee build peels away a stance like an onion especially sins. They got sooooo many unblockable skills.

Yeah because a lot of warriors run around with Wild Blow these days.

-Pluto- · Jul 23, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

However why did they change the rangers stances from evade to block? Taking evade out the game had exactly what effect?

Virtually no effect whatsoever, which is exactly the point.

Quote:

A good melee build peels away a stance like an onion especially sins. They got sooooo many unblockable skills.

Name one standard build besides the shattering assault sin. There are only 3 skills in the game that remove stances, and wild blow is all but unusable by wars and hardly sees play on dervs any more, wild strike only works for sins, and wild throw is kind of useless for melee chars by not being a melee skill (though, I supposed you could cancel-swap into spear and wtfpwn the stance real fast if you really wanted to).

C2K · Jul 23, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

I think there is balance with the ranger stances, because there is so many skills that end a stance or are unblockable. However why did they change the rangers stances from evade to block? Taking evade out the game had exactly what effect?

Removing evade made the game simpler. Block and evade were the same thing but 2 separate accounts. Removing evade did make the game better.

I usually don't care about ranger blocking stances when it comes to balance. The problem is ultimately Expertise, and because Escape is in Expertise, its the optimal elite for the sway ranger.

If they can't touch expertise, move Escape to Wilderness Survival and nerf RaO(which should be a stance) and rangers are fine.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 23, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Removing evade made the game simpler. Block and evade were the same thing but 2 separate accounts. Removing evade did make the game better.

I usually don't care about ranger blocking stances when it comes to balance. The problem is ultimately Expertise, and because Escape is in Expertise, its the optimal elite for the sway ranger.

If they can't touch expertise, move Escape to Wilderness Survival and nerf RaO(which should be a stance) and rangers are fine.

Like you and most of us are saying. Change expertise to not include secondary professions, it gets rid of all these trash builds. And its a way to "nerf" mending touch from 2 energy to 5.

Riotgear · Jul 23, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

Like you and most of us are saying. Change expertise to not include secondary professions, it gets rid of all these trash builds. And its a way to "nerf" mending touch from 2 energy to 5.

R/W - Crushing Blow costs 2 more energy.
R/P - Disrupting Throw costs 2 more energy.

Do you really think that would get rid of them? Serious question. The only one it'll get rid of at this point is R/D, and R/D can be killed by just hitting Escape.

Luminarus · Jul 23, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I dont use escape that often, but sometimes it fun to play with a build like that, albeit not in high end.

To that end, why nerf a skill into oblivion, when a nerf to expertise will suffice. The only builds with escape I see are the R/D's, and a nerf to the expertise will fix that. A ranger cant afford the R/D build without the expertise gain, hit that and they will be fine. Then leave escape.

On a similar not, Natural Stride imo doesnt need a nerf. It allows bar compression which allows rangers to take a place on the battlefield. Without it, rangers would find it to difficult to get in close enough to reliably interupt. It is good, but not overpowered. Mostly I play in low end pvp, but facing rangers I rarely find that Nat Stride is the OP skill on their bar.

DutchSmurf · Jul 23, 2008, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

I dont use escape that often, but sometimes it fun to play with a build like that, albeit not in high end.

To that end, why nerf a skill into oblivion, when a nerf to expertise will suffice. The only builds with escape I see are the R/D's, and a nerf to the expertise will fix that. A ranger cant afford the R/D build without the expertise gain, hit that and they will be fine. Then leave escape.

On a similar not, Natural Stride imo doesnt need a nerf. It allows bar compression which allows rangers to take a place on the battlefield. Without it, rangers would find it to difficult to get in close enough to reliably interupt. It is good, but not overpowered. Mostly I play in low end pvp, but facing rangers I rarely find that Nat Stride is the OP skill on their bar.

You can turn it around too. Why change a complete attribute when a change to a single skill will be enough? Also when you take into account the limited time Anet wants to spend on GW1.

About Natural Stride, in my opinion it is one of those problem skills that were added into the game later. Rangers were perfectly fine in prophecies. But then Anet decided to add a skill that would make a good template even better. They did similar things with smiters (Air of Enchantment), thumpers (RaO), E/Mo (LoD, Blinding Surge), interrupts (Magebane), etc. Yes, Natural Stride allows for bar compression. Which is exactly what is wrong with it. At first you had either a block OR a run skill. Now you just have both.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 23, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

R/W - Crushing Blow costs 2 more energy.
R/P - Disrupting Throw costs 2 more energy.

Do you really think that would get rid of them? Serious question. The only one it'll get rid of at this point is R/D, and R/D can be killed by just hitting Escape.

It will severely cripple the R/D build for sure since that pious assault just went from 4 to 10 energy, ect, ect. For the R/W I said change bash to 50% fail with less than 4 strenght.

Puddin Cheeks · Jul 23, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

All i have to say, is [expose defenses] then poonjangle the poo out of them.

Free Sigils · Jul 23, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

the problem with the R/D's was never [Escape] sure its mean, but not the worst part. Expertise allowing them to spam their Scythe attacks and [Rending Touch] having a retartedly low recharge were the problems. the stances were irritating but not the reason that they were nasty.

Riotgear · Jul 23, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

It will severely cripple the R/D build for sure since that pious assault just went from 4 to 10 energy, ect, ect. For the R/W I said change bash to 50% fail with less than 4 strenght.

Right, again though, thumpers were not exactly a problem pre-Nightfall. RaO made them a problem. So nerf RaO until people start running Ferocious Strike again, or just run neither. Tada!

Bobby2 · Jul 23, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The only one it'll get rid of at this point is R/D, and R/D can be killed by just hitting Escape.

Make Scythe less imba and these will vanish. Nerfing Escape isn't quite enough I think... since they'll just replace it with [natural stride] and spend their fresh Elite slot on [wounding strike]

Reverend Dr · Jul 24, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

The Problem isn't escape, its scythe damage. Without an elite R/bow and r/hammer are just not worth running, but scythes are a-whole-nother story.

Also Natural Stride is still overpowered. It is still a fast recharge so good to catch spikes, good for speed boosts, and good for general overextention, there is no other stance that can compare to it(well aside from escape, but that uses up your elite and a bow ranger without an elite is pointless). There is just nothing that can compare to it for bar compression. Back in the day rangers either ran a speed boost (usually storm chaster) or a block (distortion), but now you have them both in an easly spammable version.

Greedy Gus · Jul 24, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Good opening post & solid direction for potential changes. This is a poorly designed skill set at the moment.

-Pluto- · Jul 24, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Natural stride isn't much of a problem though in the current meta. Just call your spike on the ranger anyway, and have the fast cast water ele shard storm the natty right off.

Bugsy · Jul 24, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

You don't have to nerf Escape to oblivion, just change to make it less attractive to R/D. Something like: For each Bow Attack or Trap skill equipped, you move 15% faster (max 33%) and have a 25% chance to block (max 75%).

Making Wild Blow disable non-attack skills for 5-10 seconds instead of the adrenaline loss is a good suggestion. So either you pre-Frenzy and can't cancel, or you can't Frenzy/Shock, etc. It promotes skillful play.

The OP suggestion for Disciplined Stance is still flawed: "(1...7...9 seconds.) You have 50% chance to block and attack 25% faster. Ends if you use an adrenal skill." A large part of IAS is to unload adren in a pressure-spike. Change "Ends if you use an adrenal skill." to "Skills you use cost 100%...50% more energy." That way there's still the block benefit for the off-classes, but they'll have to be more careful about how they use it.