Curse

Iotan · Aug 14, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I'm not really sure how games are supposed to end with the new no VOD and no lord walking. Although splits should be more useful now, it seems that tons of games can now end easily in draws, which is good for nobody.

Burton2000 · Aug 15, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

I'm not really sure how games are supposed to end with the new no VOD and no lord walking.

Perhaps by killing your opponents or if thats not working outsplit them.

DutchSmurf · Aug 15, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Perhaps by killing your opponents or if thats not working outsplit them.

Problem with that is that in matches between good guilds, neither will roll the other team. And splitting is still useless. What people said about the first change is actually true now. You can win by hitting the lord once, if you just manage to keep them away from yours. Which honestly isn't that hard, even with open gates. About those open gates, many 'gates' aren't that open at all. Frozen Isle still has them. Druids still needs the seed as far as I know. And just think of all those maps without gates that nobody splits on anyway (Burning, Imperial).

Instead of this there were tons of better ideas posted, some in great detail. This is about the worst thing that could have been done. Yes, we have to wait to see what happens. But I predict the most boring MAT ever. Before you had 18 minutes of boredom and then 4 minutes of excitement. Now you get 28 minutes of boredom and no tactics.

C2K · Aug 15, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I think they need to work Morale Boosts to contribute in some form to the tiebreaker. While this would heavily encourage split, it would hurt turtling.

Neo-LD · Aug 19, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

<< Havent played in a while, still would like to see the game turn out alright though. A bit of theorycraft:

1. Change the tiebreaker from "Lord dealt most damage dies" to "Lord with most HP lives." This places supreme importance on flagstand/boosts, and possibly magnifies importance split. More likely it encourages extreme 8v8 builds meant to establish definitive control of the stand and boost to victory, and of course will include an obligatory base camping rit. That doesnt put us very much better off, now does it.

2. Luckily, the problems in that system are very defined. The main ones are:

A. When you split into the enemy base, there is no significant reward for anything less than killing the Guild Lord.

B. Its basically impossible to kill the Guild Lord because its too hard to fight in the enemy Lord cage.

3. The fix to both of those is pretty simple, if radical. Get rid of the NPCs. At the very least, get rid of the concentrated firepower in the Lord cage. But I think getting rid of all of them is better. GvE was never much fun, anyways. With that, the 8v8-with-base-camping-rit style would be basically dead in the water - Darn. What would be left would be completely free-form combat with two easily accessible objectives (stand, lord), presumably with a high tendency for skirmishes and tactical movement. Personally I think that'd be a blast!

4. Of course, that might create a new problem, the base rush. Theres nothing really stopping a team from loading up some crazy 8v8 build and crashing your Lord right away. In fact, that'd probably be the method of choice for grinding teams that want to play as many 3 minute games as possible to rank up the ladder. Mechanically Im not sure if theres a way to prevent that, but I think that with the right metagame (which may or may not exist right away; probably it wont and will have to be tweaked towards) immedeate Lord crashing would be a low win % manuever in games between equally skilled teams, due to being defended + countersplit.

Summary:

- Tiebreaker now judges Guild Lord current HP instead of damage dealt
- Boosts still give bonus max HP to Lord
- All NPCs removed
- Lord still never walks to stand

Radical, yes. But comon, if Izzy was willing to come this far, why not?

rii · Aug 20, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

I also stopped playing a long time ago, but even when I left one of the problems of GVG was around NPCs, kinda stupid win conditions and events throughout the game. It's not simple for the newcomer and the many aspects (such as VOD) were making play degenerate.

As a very radical alternative to the whole system you could replace the guild lord with a flag; making gvg some form on ctf. Although I'm talking a little off the cuff, imagine you gain morale, and also score points, by capping the enemy flag at the centre stand. Winning team after X minutes is the one with the most points, and if it's a tournament setting just say after X minutes next cap wins.

That format, along with the abolition of the base NPCs, would probably make splitting a requirement, but would also force 8v8 battles when it comes to capping the centre. If you wanted, you could leave a few NPCs scattered around the base to stop people from just walking in and taking the flag, but if you did just abolish NPCs altogether you'd simply make splitting even more important.

It's also a lot simpler.

FoxBat · Aug 20, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Amulet of Protection is still a serious block to killing the GL on a split early, that would need to be looked at as well.

erk · Aug 21, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Summary:

- Tiebreaker now judges Guild Lord current HP instead of damage dealt
- Boosts still give bonus max HP to Lord
- All NPCs removed
- Lord still never walks to stand

Radical, yes. But comon, if Izzy was willing to come this far, why not?

I see problems straight away, unless the lord is under attack at the 28min mark, his HP is going to be solely determined by prior efforts at the flag stand. This could easily result in a draw, fortunately most games don't last 28min. Worse still, there is no reason to attack the enemy base until you are ready to kill their lord. The NPC removal means less balth and things to target. This sounds boring and a step backwards from where it is now.

Neo-LD · Aug 21, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I see problems straight away, unless the lord is under attack at the 28min mark, his HP is going to be solely determined by prior efforts at the flag stand. This could easily result in a draw, fortunately most games don't last 28min. Worse still, there is no reason to attack the enemy base until you are ready to kill their lord. The NPC removal means less balth and things to target. This sounds boring and a step backwards from where it is now.

Well, first let me point out that since that post I came across a different, better idea, and posted about it in the other VoD thread. But as for this idea, I dont agree with your post.

Why would there be no reason to attack Lord? Its completely possible to kill hiim at any time unless your opponents devote equal amounts of manpower to stopping you. There is also the option to defend with slightly less or more to create twin-opposing powerplays. Both fights are significant: loss at the flagstand leads to immedeate repercussions (enemy boosts) and has long-term disadvantage (28:00 tiebreaker). Loss at the Guild Lord means you lose. In fact, looking at it that way, it would seem that the Lord fight is actually too significant, as a single mistake there can cost the entire match. Which is one of the reasons I like the ticket idea better.