Curse

lutz · Sep 09, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

This is just a short guide to inform newer mesmers that already know basic strategies to improve their game.

This assumes you know basic things like shutting down enemy defense, interrupting Diversion, and crap like that.

1. Gauge how much damage your team is taking. Every time I play with a mesmer who isn't all that great I end up hearing "WoH diverted!" when half our team is dead. This will make lots of people pretty angry. When your team is wiping, the midline (which includes the dom mesmer) should begin to play a little defensively (unless, of course, the other team is worse off than you). The mesmer should be the one that gauges pressure the most. Essentially, you should be ABLE (not necessarily the one to actually do it) to call the fall-backs or the pushes because you should know what's going on. You should know if the other team's monks are about to collapse - diverting key skills and denying energy in high sets are clear notifications. You should know if your team is about to collapse - your monks should be telling you what's happening, and you should know how well the other dom mesmer is doing (if they have one).

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2. There's two ways to Dom Mes - pressure and spike. Most good Dom Messes do both at the same time equally well. Pressure means forcing monks not to cast, and putting damage in places where it will cause pressure - ESurge-ing balled targets. In addition, this also means making your warriors do the most damage. Diverting Word of Healing and Guardian, as well as interrupting block mechanics (Aegis, Defensive Anthem, and even stripping attunements on water mesmers) do this very well. This also means putting damage where it needs to be, without being told to do so. Unless your caller micros you around, you need to put damage when your warriors gets Bulls followed by an adren release whether it's a spike or not. If your warrior just bullsed a monk, and you know your warrior is built, and you see the Guardian animation go up on that monk, shatter it, even if it's not a spike target. That way, it causes huge pressure and sometimes even a kill to the other team.

For spiking targets, it's simple. Click buttons on 1.

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3. Interrupt useful skills.
Every skill should have a classification in your head:

Category 1: Hurts My Team
Category 2: Helps the Other Team
or "Both" (e.g. hex removal, condition removal, snares, etc.)

Of course, there are overlaps, but when you start taking pressure, you start shutting down the skills that are in Category 1, and when you are pushing, you start shutting down the skills in Category 2.
You should also gauge how much each skill helps or hurts the other team. Dismiss Condition technically does both, but doesn't help much or hurt much either team. Aegis, on the other hand, helps the other team a lot through pressure mitigation. This puts it very high in Category 2. Some skills that are high up in Category 2 are: most monk skills (Aegis, Word of Healing, Restore Condition, Spirit Bond), blind mechanics, defensive mechanics (Defensive Anthem, Weapon of Warding).
Skills high up in Category 1 are: Shame, Diversion, ESurge/EBurn (usually), Snares, Hex Removal (if you have a water mesmer)

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4. Long periods of time without doing anything = bad. If you see yourself not casting anything for about 4-5 seconds while the other team is under heavy pressure, then forget about interrupting or diverting a key skill and just keep throwing Diversion and Shame. If the other team is taking massive pressure, you want to force their monks to make difficult decisions and prevent them from casting. It doesn't really matter what you divert.

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5. Don't get interrupted.

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6. Tell your team useful things. Usually, when trivial happens (e.g. your diversion is savage'd, or Drain Enchant is pleaked or pdrained), nobody cares, so don't say it. Things like "their monks are about to die because they ate a Shame in high set" or "Diverted Word of Healing, Patient Spirit and Infuse and Prot Spirit and both their RC and Water Mesmer are Power Blocked" are pretty useful things to say. Basically, tell your team the status of the enemy team, because you should have a better view of it than most of your team (sometimes an even better view than the warriors).

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7. DON'T BE AFRAID TO PLAY OUT OF YOUR HIGH SET. If the other team is really pressured, and you're at 3 energy on your normal set (42 energy), push into your high set (72 energy) and keep casting Diversion and Shame and keep pleaking crap until you are at 0 energy on high set. Mesmers are so incredibly easy to e-manage, because one p-drain kicks you back up to your normal set from high set, so keep playing if you think that building up the pressure will accomplish something. Don't be afraid to be at 0 energy on high set, because you can wait 3 seconds and pdrain something (or drain enchant something), and you'll be on normal set again.

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7.5. Interrupt snares when your flagger is pushing in the flag.

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7.75. Interrupt hex removal when the other team is pushing in their flag.

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7.875. Interrupt hex removal and condition removal when your team is taking a lot of pressure, in addition to things that are even more dire (Diversion, Shame, etc.)

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8. Practice interrupting 3/4. Most monk elites are 3/4, and PLeaking them on recharge adds a whole ton of pressure

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9. Whine about Euro servers.

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Last Notes (stolen mostly from Mitch's mesmer guide):

1. Learn to weapon swap very fast. Sometimes you don't have enough energy in one set and need to switch fast to interrupt something. You must learn how to do this.
2. Learn to quarter-interrupt, and know when to do this. This is usually when a monk is very low (say, 33% health) and needs to get a skill off the moment he comes back from the knockdown to avoid death. This is a key opportunity to kill.
3. Click on targets. Tabbing through is useful only in the first 10 seconds of play to understand the enemy team, but after that, click on targets.
4. Learn new builds all the time, because you need to know how to shut them down quickly. Sometimes in the mAT you will face a build you have never seen before, and you need to learn where their defense/offense lies.
5. Your mesmer build is always defined by the meta. Learn what monks/midlines are running, and change your build accordingly. If people are running elementalist-heavy builds, Power Block usually works best. For signet-mesmer heavy builds, you can run Ignorance/Stolen Speed or Complicate.

Kinlo · Sep 09, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Good guide. I always wanted to make a mesmer because they are like fricking awesome! I tried it for like 10 times but It's not my kind of class

.

~Myline, Kinlo

Koudelka · Sep 09, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

If I'm using Psychic Distraction, Power Block, or Power Leak, I'll interrupt Dismiss whenever. It's not always about interrupting what's important, it's about interrupting what you can and ideally preventing a foe from doing anything. Of course, if you have one or two more powerful interrupts rather than something spammable like Power Return, I can see your point.

Yes, mesmers do need to gague the threat level of opponents. True true.

And if you think Stolen Speed is a bad elite...

Oh, and you forgot to mention all the other things that casters have to do in pvp like cancel-cast, preemt 1/4 spells (and interrupt them).

I know you're trying to help but it does come across a bit big headed...

Turbobusa · Sep 09, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I actually find this to be a good initiative, and can be used to learn to be a better player.
Not posting anything and criticizing every guide attempt don't make you look like a better player, just a bigger arse.
*points above*

SmokingHotImolation · Sep 09, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Awesome guide. A lot of PvP mesmers should take a look at this!

Hate Core Giant · Sep 09, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

good job! nice guide. I hope the most Mesmer players have learned how to play PvP after this guide =/

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 09, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koudelka

I know you're trying to help but it does come across a bit big headed...

that's how guides tend to come off when the person writing it doesn't really have a reputation as a good player.
op: not necessarily saying ur bad at gw, but if i may ask: whoru, and how has this advice been working for your guilds rating?
edit: yes i stole my attitude from QQ forums. QQ about it =O

...

get it?

DreamWind · Sep 09, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

My current guide to Mesmer would start like this:

1. See guild to playing Elementalist.

Kaon · Sep 09, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Not bad but it is missing 2 important rules, in fact they are the most important rules of mesmer.

1. Powerblock the protmonk on recharge and call it. Having the opponent play with 1 monk half or 2/3rds of the time is autowin. You call your Pblocks because A) it gives the warriors information that they need to rickrape their WoH monk, and B) yelling "Pblocked prot" every 20ish seconds will make you look good.

2. Powerleak WoH monk as much as possible (on recharge if you have to capability). It means that not only they are very pressured, but the WoH monk will use only 1 skill: WoH because its so cheap. This means no prot spirits, no infuses, and few guardians. If you think he's really low or pleaked him as a keymoment, call it. Again because its important and makes you look good.

These are the important rules, if you can use those skills on recharge you're 10times better than any other mesmer with a full bar. You can use diversion whichever way you want and whichever way your teambuild works. Its useful to smack on the WoH (with WoH diverted, people DIE especially with a pblocked prot) or on the me/e if you think its useful. But really its all weak compared to what you have on your bar.

Oh yes, and of course always remove the water attunement ASAP, if you can pleak it even better, this greatly reduce ventrage and frustration from your warriors.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 09, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

My current guide to Mesmer would start like this:

1. See guild to playing Elementalist.

More like;
#1: If you can't interrupt 1/2 casts don't even bother playing mes and reading the rest of this guide....

Stevonio · Sep 09, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Nice guide, except it is missing another rule.

When you are playing an Ineptitude Mesmer, don't die on splits.

lutz · Sep 09, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

that's how guides tend to come off when the person writing it doesn't really have a reputation as a good player.
op: not necessarily saying ur bad at gw, but if i may ask: whoru, and how has this advice been working for your guilds rating?
edit: yes i stole my attitude from QQ forums. QQ about it =O

...

get it?

My guild is Come Honor [Face], and yeah, I agree, my guild rating isn't that great, we're like rank 400 or something - I must be really bad. I look up in awe to really good mesmers like Dark Illuminatus. I wish I could be as good as him.

(I'm kidding, Dark is awesome)

lutz · Sep 09, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Not bad but it is missing 2 important rules, in fact they are the most important rules of mesmer.

1. Powerblock the protmonk on recharge and call it. Having the opponent play with 1 monk half or 2/3rds of the time is autowin. You call your Pblocks because A) it gives the warriors information that they need to rickrape their WoH monk, and B) yelling "Pblocked prot" every 20ish seconds will make you look good.

2. Powerleak WoH monk as much as possible (on recharge if you have to capability). It means that not only they are very pressured, but the WoH monk will use only 1 skill: WoH because its so cheap. This means no prot spirits, no infuses, and few guardians. If you think he's really low or pleaked him as a keymoment, call it. Again because its important and makes you look good.

These are the important rules, if you can use those skills on recharge you're 10times better than any other mesmer with a full bar. You can use diversion whichever way you want and whichever way your teambuild works. Its useful to smack on the WoH (with WoH diverted, people DIE especially with a pblocked prot) or on the me/e if you think its useful. But really its all weak compared to what you have on your bar.

Oh yes, and of course always remove the water attunement ASAP, if you can pleak it even better, this greatly reduce ventrage and frustration from your warriors.

Most of the time in higher-level GvG, unless the other team completely neglects you, it gets exponentially more difficult to land Power Blocks on enemy prot monks. Cancel-casting Guardian becomes more prevalent in the top 50, so it's not so easy. Plus, the RC will actually be smart and start playing further back, so if you try to extend too far, you will be pressured out and die.

Of course, this doesn't really apply for things like top 500 guilds, but then again, anything works in the top 500.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you can't reliably Power Block monks when you get higher up. You should shift your focus to using Power Block on enemy elementalists (and if they don't have one, you're stupid for bringing Power Block anyway), or anything else that casts spells. And again, the thing with Power Block is, is that it encourages the whole "camping without doing anything" idea. The best way to play Power Block is not to sit on something too long, and move on quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevonio

Nice guide, except it is missing another rule.

When you are playing an Ineptitude Mesmer, don't die on splits.

Shut up Steve :\

K Y O · Sep 10, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

don't forget about stuff like:

1. using the timer. it's important to use it to keep track of recharges on certain skills, particularly aegis.

2. choosing when to play offensively and defensively.

Nice, basic guide. I think it will be useful to anyone wanting to play mesmer in pvp competitively.

btw i think ur guild is around r230ish when my guild faced them yesterday ;o

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 10, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I still think Lego's guide is the paramount of mesmer guides available right now, so much that even a year later, I'd still point to it as my default suggestion for understanding the mesmer. Reading over this, nothing really lights up a mental bulb, and some parts of it are kind of juvenile and stupid.

lutz · Sep 10, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

I still think Lego's guide is the paramount of mesmer guides available right now, so much that even a year later, I'd still point to it as my default suggestion for understanding the mesmer. Reading over this, nothing really lights up a mental bulb, and some parts of it are kind of juvenile and stupid.

Lego's mesmer guide is old, and incredibly outdated - it spends half the time talking about Hex Eater Vortex and Mantra of Recovery (both of which are incredibly useless now [HEV: maybe not INCREDIBLY useless, but somewhat bad] due to massive nerfing) and the other half stating that skills that are now good, are bad because X skill is better (well, was better).

I'm not saying Lego was/is a bad mesmer; I'm just saying, his guide is outdated. Nowadays, energy management for a mesmer is much easier with the buff to Drain Enchantment. Nobody runs Mirror of Disenchantment on Dom mesmer bars anymore except against Kappa spike, and he says a bunch of stuff about EBurn/ESurge that's just not viable anymore (it's great for energy denial in this meta). I suppose, in those days, never used to have their mesmer follow ally warriors' damage and place damage in the right places, and instead focused on omega-spiking everyone out. They're a little more different now and can actually pressure out teams.

Most of Lego's techniques are nothing new - they are things that everyone should already know. I've never read Lego's post prior to being a mesmer, and I pretty much am in accordance with everything he says that is applicable to our current meta. (e.g. you obviously don't need to Diversion Aegis, and PLeak on monks is devastating, bla bla, help out your monks with interrupts on Diversion)

My guide is to go beyond that and give some advice to those mesmers in the top 500-600 range who already know those basic skills, and give them tips that could improve their skill further. You do this by making changes to your gameplay that are significant and cause you to become better. Obviously, there are universially-applicable skills that are pretty required that anyone can improve: kiting, positioning, teamwork in general, but this is a guide for things that are strictly mesmer-related.

(P.S. I'm assuming you're reading the wall of text one, this guide: http://www.virtual-dragons.com/viewt...11&t=328#p2583 )

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 10, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

[Power Leak], [Shame], [Diversion], [Power Drain], [Shatter Enchantment], [Drain Enchantment], [Inspired Enchantment], [Revealed Enchantment] have quite frankly not changed so much as to invalidate the bulk of his argument, although some have received adjustments.

Yes, the meta has frankly shifted to [Power Block] from [Hex Eater Vortex] and [Mantra of Recovery]. Yes, the value and use of some of those options may have shifted from the meta that he describes. As a conceptual document, I think it provides a great deal more than you have provided.

If you're trying to facilitate higher level play, then I simply think your advice has to be a great deal more comprehensive than what you've provided. For example, to condense point #4: "do nothing = bad, especially if the other team is pressured, push your buttons more." What they probably don't understand is what buttons have to be pushed in order for their team to capitalize, and you don't really provide much information to help a budding mesmer do this. And to be frank I feel this way about most of your points. Point #7: "provide useful information to your team." Point #3: "some things make you die. Some things prevent your enemy from dying. Some things perform these functions more effectively than others. Prioritize your disruption."

It's also really hard to take you seriously when some of your points are just stupid humor and provide zero useful information. "8: P-Drain P-Leak." "#11: Win." And points that could be useful, like "#5: Don't get interrupted," are not particularly informative as they stand. How exactly does one facilitate not getting interrupted? What does one do in terms of positioning and weapon sets and skill canceling to not get interrupted? What does one's team do, if anything, in order to help facilitate not getting interrupted?

I submit my original opinion once more: as outdated as Lego's guide (vomit of tips?) may be, it's more helpful than what you've posted, and in my opinion your guide contains more "things that everyone should already know" than his thread does. Point #7: Use a high set."

I understand that you submitted your guide to the Gladiator's Arena audience, clearly trying to be helpful. I was merely pointing out that I think it can be improved, that I don't think it measures up to Lego's admittedly outdated post, and that I think it falters because I don't get any flashes of inspiration, and that your superfluous points detract from the document as a whole.

When I first read Lego's post I thought "Oh. That's how a mesmer thinks." Even a year later I think roughly the same about his tips in terms of theorycrafting. I have yet to read one consolidated vomit of mesmer-related stuff that I think is more useful. That is not to say that your "guide" (rather, a consolidation of tips) is useless or bad, any more than Mitch's "guide," but I wouldn't really qualify either of them as guides, more as just random advice of varying quality, ultimately weakened as "guides" by the varying quality and lack of comprehensiveness.

Avarre · Sep 10, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

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10. Whine about Euro servers.

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This is very important. I'm in Asia, so I get to whine every match about interrupt lag, meaning that I always have an excuse to play like a scrub.

lutz · Sep 10, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

[Power Leak], [Shame], [Diversion], [Power Drain], [Shatter Enchantment], [Drain Enchantment], [Inspired Enchantment], [Revealed Enchantment] have quite frankly not changed so much as to invalidate the bulk of his argument, although some have received adjustments.

Yes, the meta has frankly shifted to [Power Block] from [Hex Eater Vortex] and [Mantra of Recovery]. Yes, the value and use of some of those options may have shifted from the meta that he describes. As a conceptual document, I think it provides a great deal more than you have provided.

If you're trying to facilitate higher level play, then I simply think your advice has to be a great deal more comprehensive than what you've provided. For example, to condense point #4: "do nothing = bad, especially if the other team is pressured, push your buttons more." What they probably don't understand is what buttons have to be pushed in order for their team to capitalize, and you don't really provide much information to help a budding mesmer do this. And to be frank I feel this way about most of your points. Point #7: "provide useful information to your team." Point #3: "some things make you die. Some things prevent your enemy from dying. Some things perform these functions more effectively than others. Prioritize your disruption."

It's also really hard to take you seriously when some of your points are just stupid humor and provide zero useful information. "8: P-Drain P-Leak." "#11: Win." And points that could be useful, like "#5: Don't get interrupted," are not particularly informative as they stand. How exactly does one facilitate not getting interrupted? What does one do in terms of positioning and weapon sets and skill canceling to not get interrupted? What does one's team do, if anything, in order to help facilitate not getting interrupted?

I submit my original opinion once more: as outdated as Lego's guide (vomit of tips?) may be, it's more helpful than what you've posted, and in my opinion your guide contains more "things that everyone should already know" than his thread does. Point #7: Use a high set."

I understand that you submitted your guide to the Gladiator's Arena audience, clearly trying to be helpful. I was merely pointing out that I think it can be improved, that I don't think it measures up to Lego's admittedly outdated post, and that I think it falters because I don't get any flashes of inspiration, and that your superfluous points detract from the document as a whole.

When I first read Lego's post I thought "Oh. That's how a mesmer thinks." Even a year later I think roughly the same about his tips in terms of theorycrafting. I have yet to read one consolidated vomit of mesmer-related stuff that I think is more useful. That is not to say that your "guide" (rather, a consolidation of tips) is useless or bad, any more than Mitch's "guide," but I wouldn't really qualify either of them as guides, more as just random advice of varying quality, ultimately weakened as "guides" by the varying quality and lack of comprehensiveness.

Point #4 is actually very easy to understand. Click more buttons. I'm not kidding. Throw more diversions, throw more shames, interrupt more important skills. That really isn't hard to understand. Click buttons. You'll eventually find out where to make those buttons go.

Actually, point #7 is actually the best point in this guide, in my opinion.

Too often, people are afraid to go into high sets simply because people think "it's going to take me forever to get all that energy back". That's not true on a mesmer. Most of the time, I see so many mesmers cast because they're low on energy, and gimp themselves by trying to Pdrain something too early.

The high-set on the mesmer is different, in this case. You should always push high set, and don't fear to cast 10, even 15e spells in your high set. Just go for it.

Don't get interrupted is a pretty key point. Not getting interrupted can be accomplished in varying ways, but in general, don't cast with a ranger sitting right on you or mesmers sitting on you. That's prety self explanitory.

Kaon · Sep 10, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Most of the time in higher-level GvG, unless the other team completely neglects you, it gets exponentially more difficult to land Power Blocks on enemy prot monks. Cancel-casting Guardian becomes more prevalent in the top 50, so it's not so easy. Plus, the RC will actually be smart and start playing further back, so if you try to extend too far, you will be pressured out and die.

Of course, this doesn't really apply for things like top 500 guilds, but then again, anything works in the top 500.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you can't reliably Power Block monks when you get higher up. You should shift your focus to using Power Block on enemy elementalists (and if they don't have one, you're stupid for bringing Power Block anyway), or anything else that casts spells. And again, the thing with Power Block is, is that it encourages the whole "camping without doing anything" idea. The best way to play Power Block is not to sit on something too long, and move on quickly.

Shut up Steve :\

People run me/es you can't interrupt them. Also you can easily take a stance to keep yourself from getting raped.