Curse

Cass · Sep 16, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Mess? Hardly. The meta has moved far from the defensive web that was dominating before. In addition, currently very few gimmicks are a real threat. What is so horrible about the meta right now? Big numbers, sure, but that just makes for a more intense game... which is fine.

WoH is fine.

Interrupts are fine.

Except D Shot, which should be nerfed and Power Lock, which should be buffed.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 16, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Big numbers, sure, but that just makes for a more intense game... which is fine.

If by more intense you mean 3-2-1 spike, then yes, I wouldn't say that's 'fine' however.

Sloth Hunter's got toned down at least but ED rangers are still pretty crazy.

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WoH is fine.

Agreed.

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Interrupts are fine.

Agreed.

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Except D Shot, which should be nerfed and Power Lock, which should be buffed.

Dshot is fine and power lock could do with a minor buff.

I think the real problem is Me/E >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other defensive midliner, and it's an unhealthy template being virtually immune to interrupts.

If the Me/E would get nerfed into the ground the only viable template would be a primary water ele, the only option I see is to nerf the Me/E bar, keep the E/X power intact and at the same time buff other skills for defensive midliners (e.g. BSurge, BFlash, etc.).

Iko · Sep 16, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Primary watereles are not an option and you know it. Powerblock just kills them.

The interrupts are the root of the problem, not the me/e's. There are of course several ways to get around that: Buff Bsurge; buff meleeward (I would hate that change, it's just a stupid dicerollward that gets retarded in conjunction with aegis); nerf Powerblock and possibly pleak and dshot.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 16, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iko

Primary watereles are not an option and you know it. Powerblock just kills them.

Learn to play water ele.

Quote:

The interrupts are the root of the problem, not the me/e's.

Interrupts need to be strong to keep stuff like Aegis, Guardian, Weapon of Warding, all necro hexes, DA, Fire eles, etc. in check.

There's plenty of ways to avoid interrupts that rely on skillful play rather than just taking a mesmer primary and speccing in fast casting.

Teh Jace · Sep 16, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

The current gvg meta is spotless mind, revealed hex (on Me/E) + veil(s) or cure hex. There are no other hexes in play but water hexes (lets say we ignore StS VoR gayness or DnF "we play big TA" setup for a while).
So in order to keep warriors snared water ele has to spam a lot.
Frequent spamming of 1s casting time hexes IMO invites pblock

And u can rly keep the safe distance from an enemy mesmer, cast on 40/40 whenever possible or fake a spell or two... yet u are totally inferior to Me/E.

Iko · Sep 16, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Those skillfull plays that make you almost immune to interrupts also tend to waste your most important ressources: Energy, time and attention. Avoiding interrupts is not efficient and it depends on luck to a certain degree (fastcastsets).

Back when I played bsurgeeles with meleeward it was extremely important to get that ward through. You usually did not get interrupted but glyph also gave you unlimited tries, it was almost impossible not to get the ward through if you knew what you did. Today every try costs energy and that energy adds up after a while.

Just nerfing the me/e to death will lead to a substantial increase in defense an average team brings. Izzy has to promote alternatives, otherwise the game will be really broken once again.

DreamWind · Sep 16, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

There's plenty of ways to avoid interrupts that rely on skillful play rather than just taking a mesmer primary and speccing in fast casting.

The problem is its much easier to do that. Eles have become all but obselete because people are just saying "why not bring an Ele that has fast casting instead"? Eles have nothing unique anymore. The classes are inbalanced at the moment.

la_cabra_de_vida · Sep 16, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Frankly we had to deal with Me/E, weaknessway, dual ineptitude, smiteway, (whatever combo of hexes) all because bsurge was killed, bring back bsurge.

Greedy Gus · Sep 17, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

The game worked better when there were a variety of solid defensive skills, but they just cost a ton of energy to use effectively throughout a fight. That forced them onto templates with elite energy management, which were a lot easier to regulate from a balance standpoint. If you can make something like ether prodigy playable again, then you can have a guy with lots of good defensive skills (Bflash, water snares, ward, party healing/prot) balanced accordingly (let them be solid at mid-spec). Then you have more variety (isn't screwed if 1 out of 5 defensive tools gets disrupted), and you're not reliant on extra strong elite skills (absolute scale power is in check).

The key is to start making balances that help ratchet down the pure strength of offensive and defensive skills, and spreading out variety at a sane power level. Looking back, what worked better for the health of the format: elite e-management powering multiple decent defensive skills, or 1-2 very strong defensive skills (elite included) powered by one or two regular energy management skills or an energy-cheap bar? On the latter, almost every skill is a point of failure, so they have to be priced and powered up accordingly, which just makes disruption all the more necessary, etc.

DreamWind · Sep 17, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Yea I couldn't agree with you more. Bring back boon prots and eprodigy eles I say!

shoogi · Sep 17, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Well I just fooled around with an Air Magic Me/E, that had Lightning Javelin and goe+gale as melee hate, and that prooved highly effective. Yeah I know these RA noobs aren't really an indicator (Hey, an A/W spearing people! Hey, A/W finishes spearing and moves to hammer set! Hey, A/W approaches someone! Hey, A/W gets Lightning Javelin on his backbreaker!), but perhaps this should be buffed as a melee hate option? this is certainly more fun to play with and against than a water me/e. Again, those RA warriors are so stupid you just know when they are gonna use an attack skill and you Javelin or Gale it. This can be very fun in high levels, bad telegraph warriors get punished and the good warriors are the unpredictable ones.

Burton2000 · Sep 17, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Well I just fooled around with an Air Magic Me/E, that had Lightning Javelin and goe+gale as melee hate, and that prooved highly effective. Yeah I know these RA noobs aren't really an indicator (Hey, an A/W spearing people! Hey, A/W finishes spearing and moves to hammer set! Hey, A/W approaches someone! Hey, A/W gets Lightning Javelin on his backbreaker!), but perhaps this should be buffed as a melee hate option? this is certainly more fun to play with and against than a water me/e. Again, those RA warriors are so stupid you just know when they are gonna use an attack skill and you Javelin or Gale it. This can be very fun in high levels, bad telegraph warriors get punished and the good warriors are the unpredictable ones.

The bad thing with the air magic line is you don't get the utility of the snares that you get from water magic.

Tearz1993 · Sep 17, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is its much easier to do that. Eles have become all but obselete because people are just saying "why not bring an Ele that has fast casting instead"? Eles have nothing unique anymore.

Shatterstone says hi.

Whammo · Sep 17, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yea I couldn't agree with you more. Bring back boon prots and eprodigy eles I say!

Current mesmer templates rape that

Kaon · Sep 18, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Learn to play water ele.

Don't be foolish. A mesmer has 2 skills which destroy water eles, powerblock and powerleak. You can fake some but not all the time, and especially when your energy gets low faking isn't really comfortable. And especially if you face monks that preveil the warriors you're really just going to get RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed. If the me/e gets nerfed hard i really doubt a primary ele would be the best character to replace him, an extra domagedealer or something might be much better.

But this of course isn't necessarily a bad thing.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 18, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Don't be foolish. A mesmer has 2 skills which destroy water eles, powerblock and powerleak. You can fake some but not all the time, and especially when your energy gets low faking isn't really comfortable. And especially if you face monks that preveil the warriors you're really just going to get RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed. If the me/e gets nerfed hard i really doubt a primary ele would be the best character to replace him, an extra domagedealer or something might be much better.

But this of course isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I remember playing PBlock mesmer against you on water ele, don't think I ever had an easier time against anyone ever.

A good ele will play behind his backline faking spells when the mesmer pushes up for him..

Radiant Dawnstar · Sep 18, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I remember playing PBlock mesmer against you on water ele, don't think I ever had an easier time against anyone ever.

A good ele will play behind his backline faking spells when the mesmer pushes up for him..

Kaon is bad, Mitch hells mesmer. Discuss.

DreamWind · Sep 19, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiant Dawnstar

Kaon is bad, Mitch hells mesmer. Discuss.

Mesmers are strictly better than eles now even after the nerf. Discuss.

I Angra I · Sep 20, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

It's ridiculous for people to say things like "eles are obsolete now". What the hell did people do before everyone started using Me/E's? Eles existed back then, it just took a little bit of skill and micro to play well. Me/E's are a template that basically makes the defensive character in a build easy mode rather than having to actually play it well. Eles aren't obsolete, Me/E's are just ridiculous in that you can hardly shut them down. They still need to be fixed in some way.

la_cabra_de_vida · Sep 21, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

FC to apply to mesmer skills only, just like expertise needs to be rangers skills only. The only build we kill is FC taint?