Curse

Tearz1993 · Sep 12, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iotan

I think interruption might need to be addressed. People have gotten much better at interrupting Ele skills on a primary and that's where a lot of the melee hate can be used. 40/40 sets help but then it's just becoming a game of chance which GW usually tries to stay away from.

People didn't get better at interrupting, the skills just got easier to interrupt. BSurge was 3/4 sec cast time, while all of the useful water hexes are 1 sec, or even 2 if the target is preveiled. Unlike water eles, the BSurge was supposed to be diverted since it was useless to interrupt it when it has 4 sec recharge. Interrupting has just become more vital towards shutting down defense.

I understand what you're saying, but it was more a meta shift than player ability which caused this in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooshu

Why does Hidden Caltrops needs fixing?
i think its perfectly fine.

No.

Greedy Gus · Sep 12, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

People didn't get better at interrupting, the skills just got easier to interrupt. BSurge was 3/4 sec cast time, while all of the useful water hexes are 1 sec, or even 2 if the target is preveiled. Unlike water eles, the BSurge was supposed to be diverted since it was useless to interrupt it when it has 4 sec recharge. Interrupting has just become more vital towards shutting down defense.

I understand what you're saying, but it was more a meta shift than player ability which caused this in my opinion.

I imagine this is a difference in range when looking back at previous metas. If you're looking back at bsurge metas, the 'whack-a-mole' style interruption vs. 40/40 set usage was already in full effect. It's when you look further back, for instance when people would run a water ele with a ward and heal party as a defensive character. That felt pretty right, where interrupts were useful but nowhere near as prevalent (or used as skillfully it would seem). People have gotten better at playing the game while the skills/options have gotten better, and it makes it somewhat difficult when trying to balance based on old precedents that 'felt right' (metas that were fun to play and seemed to work for the game).

moriz · Sep 13, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

i think the whole interrupting debate boils down to the efficiency of the defensive characters.

with increased efficiency of the defensive characters, there will be less variables and less steps/skills needed to achieve that defensive effect. shutting down that defense then turns into a matter of disabling that one skill to achieve full shutdown, whereas before you can get partial effect by shutting down one of the two defensive skills.

now, by removing the me/e water spammers, izzy created a hole that still needs to be filled. before the water spammer can fulfill that role, and now teams will have to find other ways to do the same thing. we can just substitute in a water ele in that spot, but water eles are much easier to shutdown that me/e's. one way to achieve the same effect is to spread the role between two midline characters. or, we'll see a return to hexway.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 13, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Mainly the availability or variety or even worthy defensive passive skills or even active D have all been nerfed, now it's all about interrupting 1-2 things and your done. Then again right now water hexes are spamable, short casts, where removal just exceeds even trying to interrupt, hell right now all you need is some removal for your frontline screw interrupting and you pound some stuff. This is reguarding the typical balanced one water ele, start to overload and it's a diff story.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 13, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

it USED to be worth the slot, but now it isn't.

It does 60-65 damage at 10 marksmanship, that's still the most damage you're going to get out of a single bow attack with such low mms spec, add a savage shot which will land in the same second and you still have a ~90 damage spike on a character that really shouldn't be able to spike.

Quote:

at the same time, it is still overpowered on expert's dex bars. the nerf failed to solve the problem (that is, make expert's dex builds more manageable)

It adressed part of the problem (make Sloth Hunter's less retarded), I haven't seen it enough after the update to say if it succeeded in that part but I do think ED itsself also deserves a nerf of some sort.

Quote:

and created a new problem (skill no longer usable on other ranger builds). after all, removing ~20 damage from 150 damage is hardly noticeable, but removing ~14 damage from 80 is a pretty big difference.

I disagree, you can still run Sloth Hunter's Shot on a 10 marks ranger if you want, it's still the best damage/spike skill you can bring, it simply isn't AS ridiculous as it used to be (+47 damage on an attack at 10 spec is ridiculous in my book).

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

now, by removing the me/e water spammers, izzy created a hole that still needs to be filled. before the water spammer can fulfill that role, and now teams will have to find other ways to do the same thing. we can just substitute in a water ele in that spot, but water eles are much easier to shutdown that me/e's. one way to achieve the same effect is to spread the role between two midline characters. or, we'll see a return to hexway.

Removing Me/E 'water spammers'? They're still perfectly viable, I do agree that some buffs are in order to create more variety in midline defense, think about Air Magic, BFlash/BSurge etc.

urania · Sep 13, 2008, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

And if you have a minor rune its -10, a perfectly normal number that allows for very tactical use.

oh yeah, especially if there's 2 of them

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 13, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

oh yeah, especially if there's 2 of them

Learn2shieldswap ;o

DutchSmurf · Sep 13, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

oh yeah, especially if there's 2 of them

There was a time when monks got hit by Energy Burn+Surge and Signet of Weariness all the time and they survived fine then. I don't see how a blockable, dodgable bow attack can ever give anyone more problems then the original domination mesmers did. So learn to weaponswap again. Guess most people kinda forgot how to do that.

About the interruption discussion, I think it isn't really the getting interrupted that is the problem. It is the disable effect that often comes with it that is. I can't understand how Izzy used the "not hitting anything as warrior isn't fun" as 'argument' to nerf defense and blind skills, but not being able to cast isn't considered a problem.
And then you have the ranger interrupts that you can argue are a little bit too strong and could use a little longer recharge. Problem is those 2 skills are about everything the ranger has that is worth bringing into GvG.

øln · Sep 13, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Monks back then had skills which basically were "gain x energy". Nowadays people have a glyph which is far as effective and a 15 energy skill, or no e-manangement skill. (HA doesn't count.) You also have to cancel (which also costs energy ) skills and utilize fast-cast sets to avoid getting interrupted. Boon-prots didn't have to worry much about interrupts. And i can't remember that people easily lasted that much longer back then.

urania · Sep 13, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Learn2shieldswap ;o

maybe they just use it when u cast sth? ;o

i camp shield set in TA as well as gvg, but that doesnt make 2x -11 deb shot any less retarded.

moko · Sep 13, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Learn2shieldswap ;o

a good ranger with that template (they got IAS afterall) will just fire it in your face when you swap to your high set. sure it's a mind game but in the end the good ranger will probably win.

i personally don't mind debshot .. as long as there's no IAS. if you can get faint on then that's ok, but hexes won't last long on him.

cake beat me by a minute. =(

I Angra I · Sep 14, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

There was a time when monks got hit by Energy Burn+Surge and Signet of Weariness all the time and they survived fine then. I don't see how a blockable, dodgable bow attack can ever give anyone more problems then the original domination mesmers did. So learn to weaponswap again. Guess most people kinda forgot how to do that.

About the interruption discussion, I think it isn't really the getting interrupted that is the problem. It is the disable effect that often comes with it that is. I can't understand how Izzy used the "not hitting anything as warrior isn't fun" as 'argument' to nerf defense and blind skills, but not being able to cast isn't considered a problem.
And then you have the ranger interrupts that you can argue are a little bit too strong and could use a little longer recharge. Problem is those 2 skills are about everything the ranger has that is worth bringing into GvG.

With the old e-denial esurge mesmers though they couldn't e-deny you and then dish out ~300 damage each afterwards, like these rangers can. I think that's basically the thing that makes it so retarded. E-denial is fine, damage is fine, but being able to do both like that by just slamming your face on your keyboard is a bit ridiculous.

Which is why I still say expert's dexterity should have been nerfed rather than sloth hunter's, but zzzz. Sloth hunters did need a nerf too though but it wasnt the source of the problem of that build.

Tyla · Sep 14, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Sloth Hunter's was a problem skill on it's own anyway. ED is also a problem skill of it's own.

DreamWind · Sep 14, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Does anybody else find it hilarious that water mesmers got "nerfed", and yet they are still seeing heavy play? Just another testament to how inbalanced this game is nowadays.

Riotgear · Sep 14, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Does anybody else find it hilarious that water mesmers got "nerfed", and yet they are still seeing heavy play? Just another testament to how inbalanced this game is nowadays.

Not really, the typical cycle is:
- Token nerf that doesn't solve anything
- Month later, real nerf that brings something down to a manageable level
- Month later (or at the same time), becomes obsolete after some dartboard buff creates some new imbalanced build that takes its place

BoondockSaint · Sep 14, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Permasnare which requires little to no attribution to be effective, which also costs 5 energy.

caltrops is scary, especially in gvg, but it is an elite. Maybe they should give things like [Blessed Light] a minor healing buff so that monks can consider that over WoH. Though I guess the target would still be crippled. Then maybe reduce the time the cripple lasts. Also sig. or removal mesmers counter this perfectly.

Tearz1993 · Sep 15, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22

A different fix to caltrops could be lessen snare time to 7-8 seconds and only add the cripple condition if hex is removed prematurely.

Tyla · Sep 15, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoondockSaint

caltrops is scary, especially in gvg, but it is an elite. Maybe they should give things like [Blessed Light] a minor healing buff so that monks can consider that over WoH. Though I guess the target would still be crippled. Then maybe reduce the time the cripple lasts. Also sig. or removal mesmers counter this perfectly.

I'd rather see WoH toned down, to be honest. I see BLight as a pretty balanced skill, but seriously, buffing skills against incredibly strong ones shouldn't be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz

A different fix to caltrops could be lessen snare time to 7-8 seconds and only add the cripple condition if hex is removed prematurely.

I think it should have some heavy attribution in Shadow Arts, to be honest. With the change you said included or not.

To get 8 seconds, it requires 9 Shadow Arts?

Burton2000 · Sep 15, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

The skill people would run before if you wanted snares on a rit was Icy Shackles so all you have to do is compare the 2 skills and you can see how imbalanced Hidden Caltrops is. At least make the hex duration scale with shadow arts in a similar way to icy shackles.

Reverend Dr · Sep 15, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I'd rather see WoH toned down, to be honest.

I agree with this, to a point. WoH seemed to have gotten the buff because someone felt that if we have big blue numbers then they have balanced the big red numbers. I do feel that WoH is too powerful right now, but before it can be toned down, we'd need a meta where we are not dependant upon it to stay up. I'm actually kind of afraid that if WoH gets hit we'd just start seeing more Healer's Boon.

I'm kind of curious about the relation between the big skills that deal damage, the big skills that keep everyone up, and interrupts and window skills.

Diversion and shame are largely window skills that give an opportunity for a big play. After the powercreep the window created by these skills seems much, much larger than it did several years back. These skills have always placed a large threat. However, in the recent year this threat seems to have increased and a larger importance is placed on interrupting and shutting down these window skills.

Window skills are as dangerous as the skills that surround them; interrupts are exactly as dangerous as the skills around them, perhaps a little more considering interruption effects. Interrupting big offensive skills relieves tons of pressure on your team and interrupting big defensive skills can cause the other team to wipe quickly. With much larger effects from big skills interruption has to be more important.

I'm not saying that the promotion of better play is bad, but competition already promotes better play and it is ridiculous to require a high level of skill to counter, in many cases, people just pushing buttons.

Right now there are just so many out of balance issues and more out of balance issues just to keep those in line. Its a horrible mess.