Curse

shoogi · Sep 11, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Guild Battle
Added "Oath of Protection" to the Bodyguard; "While the bodyguard is alive, the Guild Lord takes 20% less damage."
Skill Updates

PvE and PvP

Elementalist
Glowing Gaze: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 fire damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is Burning."
Glowing Ice: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 cold damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is hexed with Water Magic."
Glowstone: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 earth damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is Weakened."
Master of Magic: now ends whenever a non-elementalist skill is used.
Mind Blast: recharge time reduced to 2 seconds.
Icy Shackles: energy cost increased to 10.
Shock Arrow: functionality changed to: "Rapid projectile: deals 5..50 lightning damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if you hit an attacking foe. 25% armor penetration."

Necromancer
Order of Undeath: functionality changed to: "Your minions deal +3..16 damage and you lose 2% of your maximum Health when a minion hits." Energy cost increased to 10, duration reduced to 5 seconds.

PvP

Ranger
Sloth Hunter's Shot: unconditional damage reduced to 5..20, conditional damage reduced to 5..25.

GvG update meant to at least hurt this suicide-attack-on-the-lord retardness.

Me/E taking a huge hit, Glowing ice nerf = kill the build, + icy shackles nerf.

Sloth Hunters got a very needed nerf.

Mind blast got a big buff, mind blasters might make a comeback. This + Glowing gaze (now better on primary eles) + attunement = endless fuel for fire eles. You don't even need glyph. Spam rodgort on 40/40 set? I'm down for that.

the_deSKtructor · Sep 11, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Guild Battle
Added "Oath of Protection" to the Bodyguard; "While the bodyguard is alive, the Guild Lord takes 20% less damage."
Skill Updates

PvE and PvP

Elementalist
Glowing Gaze: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 fire damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is Burning."
Glowing Ice: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 cold damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is hexed with Water Magic."
Glowstone: functionality changed to: "Deals 5..50 earth damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if target foe is Weakened."
Master of Magic: now ends whenever a non-elementalist skill is used.
Mind Blast: recharge time reduced to 2 seconds.
Icy Shackles: energy cost increased to 10.
Shock Arrow: functionality changed to: "Rapid projectile: deals 5..50 lightning damage. You gain 5 Energy plus 1 Energy for every 2 ranks of Energy Storage if you hit an attacking foe. 25% armor penetration."

Necromancer
Order of Undeath: functionality changed to: "Your minions deal +3..16 damage and you lose 2% of your maximum Health when a minion hits." Energy cost increased to 10, duration reduced to 5 seconds.

PvP

Ranger
Sloth Hunter's Shot: unconditional damage reduced to 5..20, conditional damage reduced to 5..25.

GvG update meant to at least hurt this suicide-attack-on-the-lord retardness.

Me/E taking a huge hit, Glowing ice nerf = kill the build, + icy shackles nerf.

Sloth Hunters got a very needed nerf.

Mind blast got a big buff, mind blasters might make a comeback.

The update is pretty ok, would have like to see more skills getting hitted (ie hidden caltrops) but still better than nothing.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 11, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

No mention of anything to do with [Mirror of Ice], fail.

alen · Sep 11, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Guild Battle
Added "Oath of Protection" to the Bodyguard; "While the bodyguard is alive, the Guild Lord takes 20% less damage."

should be at 80 but its a start

RiKio · Sep 11, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Yay, Fast Cast Mesmers got severely damaged and Mind Blast got buffed. Is this the comeback of the Emos?

PD: Woah, they quitted rats and oozes. Best part of the update.
PD2: Lol Ranger.

*lemming* · Sep 11, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

HIDDEN CALTROPS

lololololol

Burton2000 · Sep 11, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Not too sure if glowing ice nerf has totally killed the me/e build. You can use Ether Phantom/Drain delusions + drain enchant and the energy is better than ever while keeping all the same skills if you drop your res sig.

[Icy shackles][shard storm][blurred vision][glyph of immolation][steam][ether phantom][drain delusions][drain enchantment]

Of course i've yet to try this after the update but I saw EW run somet like this before the glowing ice nerf.

Also im not happy that mirror of ice didn't get touched.

moriz · Sep 11, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

the sloth hunter's shot nerf effectively made it useless with low marksmanship (for instance, on a cripshot), which unfortunately was one of its original purposes. as of right now, screaming shot is far more powerful at the same spec, since its lower damage will be made up by the bleeding effect in 2 seconds.

a better way to fix the skill is to raise the minimum damage and lower the max damage. for instance, 18...20 unconditional, 22...25 conditional. this will make it less powerful at high marksmanship, but retain its old function as being a good spike assist/finisher at low marks.

Whammo · Sep 11, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

power block, hidden caltrops, mirror of ice and experts dexterity say hi!

Riotgear · Sep 11, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I am very surprised to see a balance update that only fixes about 3% of the issues plaguing the game, this is such a far departure from the usual quality of updates.

LifesRestorer · Sep 11, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

quit QQing, it's better than most.

i would have liked to see MoI take a hit and possibly more options for hybrid prots so that when you get PBlocked you're not totally F'd in the A but at least an issue has been touched, and it WAS a major issue.

Maybe now we'll see eles returning into the meta again.

DarkNecrid · Sep 11, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

quit QQing, it's better than most.

No it isn't.

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 11, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Mind Blast is okay. Rodgort's can hardly be used on recharge; the other team is likely not stupid enough to let you do that. Also, $25.00 is expensive, you only get money back if your cast resolves.

The linking of energy storage to various e-management helps discourage FC shit. You don't get as much back though if you invest any points into another line, but your ultimate gains are stronger if you spec more than 6 into ES. On a greater level, I think energy storage is fairly bad, and I like these updates a lot in terms of making it useful beyond exhaustion overhead and giving you energy to use prohibitively expensive skills. Now you may actually be able to persistently refuel your prohibitively expensive skills.

On Sloth Hunter's Shot: +20 / +47 damage versus +15 / +33 damage at 10 marks? Zero sympathy for the nerf. I don't buy the argument for Screaming Shot. Okay, so three seconds of bleeding makes up for the +18 on Sloth Hunter's Shot. Would you have argued before the update that 5.33 seconds of bleeding makes up for the +32 on Sloth Hunter's Shot?

lutz · Sep 11, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Mind Blast is okay. Rodgort's can hardly be used on recharge; the other team is likely not stupid enough to let you do that. Also, $25.00 is expensive, you only get money back if your cast resolves.

The linking of energy storage to various e-management helps discourage FC shit. You don't get as much back though if you invest any points into another line, but your ultimate gains are stronger if you spec more than 6 into ES. On a greater level, I think energy storage is fairly bad, and I like these updates a lot in terms of making it useful beyond exhaustion overhead and giving you energy to use prohibitively expensive skills. Now you may actually be able to persistently refuel your prohibitively expensive skills.

On Sloth Hunter's Shot: +20 / +47 damage versus +15 / +33 damage at 10 marks? Zero sympathy for the nerf. I don't buy the argument for Screaming Shot. Okay, so three seconds of bleeding makes up for the +18 on Sloth Hunter's Shot. Would you have argued before the update that 5.33 seconds of bleeding makes up for the +32 on Sloth Hunter's Shot?

The "glowing" skills are the same as before; what are you talking about? There's no "buff" to energy storage - to make them function as they did before, you need to have 8 energy storage. At 10 energy storage, you get 1 more energy than before. That's not "wow, I can spam my 25e skills more now". If you have 12 energy storage you're doing it wrong.

moriz · Sep 12, 2008, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

On Sloth Hunter's Shot: +20 / +47 damage versus +15 / +33 damage at 10 marks? Zero sympathy for the nerf. I don't buy the argument for Screaming Shot. Okay, so three seconds of bleeding makes up for the +18 on Sloth Hunter's Shot. Would you have argued before the update that 5.33 seconds of bleeding makes up for the +32 on Sloth Hunter's Shot?

might want to get the actual stats, instead of throwing numbers at random.

currently with the new update, sloth hunter's deal +15 unconditional with +18 conditional at 10 marks. at the same marks, screaming shot deals +20 unconditional with an easily met bleeding condition. the difference in maximum damage dealt, assuming sloth hunter's meet its condition, is 13 damage. bleeding is 6dps, so it gets made up quickly in 2 seconds. at that point, screaming shot will result in more damage dealt in the next 6 seconds, which means that screaming shot will outstrip sloth hunter's by 36 damage by the time both recharges, assuming the bleeding sticks.

compared to before: +20 unconditional, with +27 conditional on sloth hunter's. to make up for the +27 damage, screaming shot's bleeding will have to stick for 4.5 seconds before it could surpass sloth hunter's raw damage. overall in 8 seconds (which is the recharge for both), screaming shot would only outstrip sloth hunter's by 21.

the take home message is this: screaming shot ALWAYS did more damage than sloth hunter's, assuming both conditions are met. however, the old sloth hunter's damage is permanent and functioned as a strong spike/finisher. now with sloth hunter's nerfed, it can no longer function as before with only 10 in marks. at this point, screaming shot is decidedly better because the bleeding only needs to stick for 2 measly seconds to outdamage sloth hunter's, as opposed to the 4.5 seconds it needed before.

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 12, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Uhh, I don't know exactly what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure you got:

Glowing Gaze: 8E @ 14, 9E @ 15
Glowing Ice: 9E @ 14.
Glowstone: 8E @ 14, 9E @ 15

So if you want to be superdupernitpicky about energy returns (which I really don't), then yes. You need 8 Energy Storage to get 9E from Glowing Ice, and you need 6 Energy storage to get 8E from Glowing Gaze and Glowstone. So my numbers on Glowing Ice were off by one. Everything else stands. Thanks for the correction.

This still brings me back to my greater point, which is that you have basically zero incentive to run energy storage besides exhaustion overhead and being able to cast expensive skills. That is why you basically never have 12+ ES, because you're pulling points out for things like Aegis and Weapon of Warding or Protective Was Kaolai or really just about anything you want, generally in terms of your secondary. There aren't really even any quality PvP-relevant skills tied to Energy Storage except for Glyph of Lesser Energy, so you basically get zero reward for extra points in E-Storage. It's kind of the same problem that's plagued Strength, and it's kind of the reason that fast cast water was generally superior to any regular water ele template. In terms of thinking, the idea of tying certain things to energy storage to make it a more relevant attribute strikes me as a good idea.

I had Screaming Shot at +15 rather than +20. My mistake. Fine. My numbers are off by what, .83 seconds? The greater point is that you didn't throw around bleeding numbers before Sloth Hunter's Shot was nerfed to justify Screaming Shot being better. Now you think it's relevant to nitpick those numbers?

The factors that go into the reasoning to take Screaming Shot versus Sloth Hunter's Shot are such that even mentioning the amount of bleeding duration required to compensate the damage is generally irrelevant. What you're actually interested in is whether the presence of bleeding, period, is better than the conditional bonus damage. Sloth Hunter's Shot now does what, 5 less unconditional damage and 14 less conditional damage at 10 marks versus the old version? So over one minute, the old version in terms of damage over time would have done what, maybe 40ish less unconditional damage (minimum) and 100ish less damage (maximum) if used on recharge? So what? That wasn't really the argument you used to pick Sloth Hunter's Shot, and it's not the argument you'd use to pick Screaming Shot.

Yes, Sloth Hunter's Shot is not as good as it used to be, and therefore it may not be as desirable compared to other bow attack skills. And? That was kind of the point of the nerf, along with making numerous copies of Sloth Hunter's, especially empowered by Expert's Dexterity, not nearly as lame.

moriz · Sep 12, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

The greater point is that you didn't throw around bleeding numbers before Sloth Hunter's Shot was nerfed to justify Screaming Shot being better. Now you think it's relevant to nitpick those numbers?

precisely that.

sloth hunter's shot is a pure damage attack; and like all pure damage attacks, you can only play around with the numbers so much before you make it irrelevant. at this point, anet did just that: at 10 marks (which is one of the most common attribute levels for ranger), it can no longer deliver a powerful enough spike for anyone to justify bringing it over screaming shot.

and please don't say i never tried to justify screaming shot being better before. in fact, on the official wiki, i proved that the old HUNTER'S SHOT was capable of outdamaging the pre-nerf sloth hunter's shot. the only reason why anyone would want to sacrifice a skill slot to run this on a cripshot was because it was an excellent finisher.

and if you don't believe me, here are a few numbers i found:
pre-nerf sloth hunter's shot, run on a standard cripshot ranger, will allow that ranger to deal a maximum sustained 25DPS, and potentially spike for ~130 damage (sloth->savage, both critical). the same ranger, running screaming shot, deals 30DPS, and spiked for ~100 max. with the nerf, sloth hunter's DPS drops to about 22, and can spike for ~113 max. judging by the numbers, it's pretty easy to see that it's no longer worth sacrificing the bleeding for a small damage boost.

lastly, i would like to say that the nerf was targetted against the expert's dexterity ranger. however, i'd like to say that it has failed: those rangers will STILL run sloth hunter's, simply because sloth hunter's responds very well to the +2 marks (because it has two +damage boosts, which results in dramatically more damage with higher marks). instead, this nerf merely removes a viable, and non-broken, option for non-expert's dex rangers. because of this, this is a bad nerf.

lutz · Sep 12, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Uhh, I don't know exactly what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure you got:

Glowing Gaze: 8E @ 14, 9E @ 15
Glowing Ice: 9E @ 14.
Glowstone: 8E @ 14, 9E @ 15

So if you want to be superdupernitpicky about energy returns (which I really don't), then yes. You need 8 Energy Storage to get 9E from Glowing Ice, and you need 6 Energy storage to get 8E from Glowing Gaze and Glowstone. So my numbers on Glowing Ice were off by one. Everything else stands. Thanks for the correction.

This still brings me back to my greater point, which is that you have basically zero incentive to run energy storage besides exhaustion overhead and being able to cast expensive skills. That is why you basically never have 12+ ES, because you're pulling points out for things like Aegis and Weapon of Warding or Protective Was Kaolai or really just about anything you want, generally in terms of your secondary. There aren't really even any quality PvP-relevant skills tied to Energy Storage except for Glyph of Lesser Energy, so you basically get zero reward for extra points in E-Storage. It's kind of the same problem that's plagued Strength, and it's kind of the reason that fast cast water was generally superior to any regular water ele template. In terms of thinking, the idea of tying certain things to energy storage to make it a more relevant attribute strikes me as a good idea.

I had Screaming Shot at +15 rather than +20. My mistake. Fine. My numbers are off by what, .83 seconds? The greater point is that you didn't throw around bleeding numbers before Sloth Hunter's Shot was nerfed to justify Screaming Shot being better. Now you think it's relevant to nitpick those numbers?

The factors that go into the reasoning to take Screaming Shot versus Sloth Hunter's Shot are such that even mentioning the amount of bleeding duration required to compensate the damage is generally irrelevant. What you're actually interested in is whether the presence of bleeding, period, is better than the conditional bonus damage. Sloth Hunter's Shot now does what, 5 less unconditional damage and 14 less conditional damage at 10 marks versus the old version? So over one minute, the old version in terms of damage over time would have done what, maybe 40ish less unconditional damage (minimum) and 100ish less damage (maximum) if used on recharge? So what? That wasn't really the argument you used to pick Sloth Hunter's Shot, and it's not the argument you'd use to pick Screaming Shot.

Yes, Sloth Hunter's Shot is not as good as it used to be, and therefore it may not be as desirable compared to other bow attack skills. And? That was kind of the point of the nerf, along with making numerous copies of Sloth Hunter's, especially empowered by Expert's Dexterity, not nearly as lame.

Energy Storage wasn't buffed. FC Water Mes was nerfed.

In the end, who the hell cares? Less gimmicks, yay. Still haven't touched Kappa Spike, though.

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 12, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Anybody who doesn't suck will not generally run Screaming Shot over Sloth Hunter's Shot (edit: in the context of one ranger providing a spike assist in a modern, GvG "balanced" build). Period.

Energy storage -is- buffed. Whether it's buffed enough to matter by linking those skills to it is another matter altogether. Conceptually, the update clearly intended to move emphasis back towards ele primaries.

Aera · Sep 12, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

If I understand correctly there should be more balances soon:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

September 11: Regularly scheduled game update (balance changes, XTH points, etc.)

( Source: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10320209 )