Curse

yum · Oct 18, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Instead people want stuff buffed based on how bad it is, without any clear goal for its use because "more things viable equals diversity."

Can someone please explain the thought process behind this to me?

Easy. They invested quite a lot in skill designing, which gave GW more than 1000 skills. Thus, they don't want to waste that money.

Moreover, Izzy has only 2 options: buff or nerf. I wish Anet gives him the "delete" power because it's really annoying for me to see stupid skills floating around.

Riotgear · Oct 18, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

My question is more along the lines of why people want buffs to shit like Keystone Signet when there are obviously a bunch of skills that are not terrible that either used to work well, or could probably be buffed to reinforce non-degenerate playstyles with little actual effort.

The "buff things that are terrible" mentality is kind of game design gone backwards: Rather than having an objective and looking for a way to accomplish it, spend time and effort reinforcing concepts that never meshed well with the game to begin with.

Yet, despite that, it's finding quite a few followers. I'm just trying to get an idea what the thought process is behind the philosophy that the crappiness of Wastrel's Collapse is somehow a major balance concern that needs to be addressed. Or more specifically, why people that trumpet buffs as the best way to increase diversity always seem to mention godawful abilities as the prime targets rather than... you know.... well-designed abilities that aren't quite good enough?

Melody Cross · Oct 18, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

My question is more along the lines of why people want buffs to shit like Keystone Signet when there are obviously a bunch of skills that are not terrible that either used to work well, or could probably be buffed to reinforce non-degenerate playstyles with little actual effort.

The "buff things that are terrible" mentality is kind of game design gone backwards: Rather than having an objective and looking for a way to accomplish it, spend time and effort reinforcing concepts that never meshed well with the game to begin with.

Yet, despite that, it's finding quite a few followers. I'm just trying to get an idea what the thought process is behind the philosophy that the crappiness of Wastrel's Collapse is somehow a major balance concern that needs to be addressed. Or more specifically, why people that trumpet buffs as the best way to increase diversity always seem to mention godawful abilities as the prime targets rather than... you know.... well-designed abilities that aren't quite good enough?

Hmm...it may have something to do with wanting to use the skill in and of itself. I may be able to explain this affliction, seeing as i suffer from it.

Case in point. I <3 the idea of Life Sheath, but hate the implementation. in its current state, its terribad. Since the Factions preview, I've not been motivated to put it on my bar. The 20 second uptime makes it overpowered in a way that monks can't use it: pre-pre-prot. With a respectable recycle the skill could quite possibly be put on your entire team in an RA or TA and keep it there for a large chunk of a match, so it stays dead...because a rather useless effect could be exploited in a lower level arena (yes, I know that using RA and TA in balance discussion is frowned on in these forums, but whether or not players take them into consideration when asking for a balance, Anet has to).

Never seen a LS build I've taken seriously...but I love the idea of the skill and want to see it buffed. I could just drop it, say it never worked and it never will, and concentrate on getting BLight buffed back into viability instead (a skill that did see wide use and is still considered usable, if no longer PvP effective) but...I don't. because Life Sheath could own. Could have been, could be a great elite...if Anet ever balanced it properly as a spot-prot, not a semi-perminant enchantment that isn't. Same with Glimmer. Same with a lot of skills that were always bad...and look like they will always be bad, if the status quo continues apace.

GGs

lacasner · Oct 18, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Life Sheath could be made skillful if it actually had the effect of using it to negate a spike or an eviscerate/executioners and maybe a sin combo.
Perhaps rework it to(of course with modified energy cost and recharge):

Life Sheath:10 energy, 1/2 cast, 15 second recharge
For 5 seconds, target ally takes 0 damage for all attack skills used against him.

Just an idea, may be overpowered or not im not sure, but it should be fixed for sure.

Greedy Gus · Oct 18, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

I think the current life sheath mechanic is just fine, it's an interesting insanely front-loaded prot (opens a window of time to do something else, or whatever else you'd want that for). Without having put much thought into it, I'd say the numbers could be simply tweaked to make it more viable in that 'front-loaded' prot role, and vaguely disagree with the statements like "if it's ever viable in competitive play, it will be too strong". But maybe that's true in the context of a 2-monk backline, and the skill could still be made better to see play somewhere else.

yum · Oct 18, 2007, 03:17 PM // 15:17

The problem with LS is that the damage negated is nothing comparable to the amount inflicted. The 20s duration seems great, but its not. A monk can wand his target to 120 damage in fewer than 20 s. For that reason, LS, as an elite, ...uhm.. sux atm.
The only way to make it usable is to buff the amount of damage negated, if the fix is intended to keep the skill's essence. The cast time can be buffed, but don't even think about touching its recharge. LS with low recharge will be overpowered.

@Riot: well, I don't think Anet has any kind of philosophy behind game balancing. They just want to sell more and don't want to admit that 75% of the skills they spent millions in are utterly useless. Like Ensign stated somewhere, Anet looks at GW as an experiment; the only problem is they are not willing to admit its failure.

Shmanka · Oct 18, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Life sheath just needs 1/2s or 1/4s cast time.

pah01 · Oct 18, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

it also needs to absorb more health [edit: damage

] otherwise spirit bond / prot spirit and shield of deflection *even* in its current form will always be better.

Joe

Chris Blackstar · Oct 19, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

This is what I have a hard time with when it comes to general skill Balance. Anet uses skill balance as a tool to prevent one build from domonating the metagame, so they nerf the over used skills, and buff the under used skills, thus forcing players to change builds in order to achieve the same objective as before. Then the system rinses and repeats all over again in an endless cycle.

You would think after a couple skill balances, Anet would see that the course they are taking is self defeating.

The problem with PvP is that there is only one objective, elimination of the oppossing team with maybe a couple of variations on that concept. What I think Anet needs to do is to first revert all nerfed skills back to there original strenghts, and all attributes that have been nerfed, need to return back to there original function. Then Anet needs to change the objectives of PvP to something else other then elimination of the oppossing team.

If they need to reach out to the community for ideas, then so be it. Otherwise what's going to happen is that they will eventally run out of skills to nerf or buff, maybe they realised this and that is why they are working on GW2?

Mysterial · Oct 19, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

The problem with Life Sheath is that it is balanced as if it were a protection skill.

Byron · Oct 22, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Life sheath just needs 1/2s or 1/4s cast time.

10e, 8 rc, 1/4 cast,
imho.

Not that its necessary, but I like the idea of the skill. Without a buff, though, sheath is pretty much a long cast RoF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Without having put much thought into it, I'd say the numbers could be simply tweaked to make it more viable in that 'front-loaded' prot role

The active prot role is what matters, yeah. Otherwise, you just go bonder template, like RA monks.

Master Ketsu · Oct 22, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Interesting idea for life sheath:

Buff the Healing prayers that need it.

Move life sheath to HP.

Its purpose would be similar to Zealous benedictions.

Skye Marin · Oct 23, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Nice thread. I really like the theory, but I'm strongly inclined to convert that theory into specific numbers and changes to skills.

Let's look at LoD and Heal Party to start. Heal Party has never not been on an Ether Prodigy Runner before Nightfall, and LoD has never not been on an infuser bar after. Ignoring PvE for a second, it's safe to say they need a change in functionality.

Heal Party's cost and cast time make it fairly susceptible to interruption, and had Ether Prodigy on its side for the longest time. Both could be made Earshot range, punishing over-extension and encouraging use of physical self-heals, as it should be. As far as specifics, here are a few solutions in my head. Each point is a different skill change. Some fix certain issues, and the best one would be a matter of perception and opinion. Tell me what you think:

LoD
- Increase energy cost to 10. Returns 1 energy for every ally healed. [puts an amount of energy pressure on the caster if used willy-nilly]
- Caster loses 1 extra energy for every ally healed. [rewards pressure tactics by putting energy pressure on the LoD]
- Heals for 5..35 for each party member under 30%, 50%, and 80% health [lowers overall healing effectiveness on non-pressured teams]
- Skill is disabled for 2 seconds for each party member healed (max. 15..5) [lowers overall healing per second potency, another pressure reward]
-If interrupted, skill is disabled for 15 seconds.

And of course, for diversity, buff the other Party-Heal skills:

Release Enchantments - Increase heal to 20..50 (maximum 80).
Mystic Healing - People on the team below 50% health are healed first. Add 1 person healed. Increase casting time to 2.
"Restoration" Chants - Lower recharge times, but add "instances of this chant on each party member are disabled for 20 seconds". (This is a change plenty of people have wanted to see for some time, opening the way for paragons to be buffed.)

Aside: For PvE, Anet could buff Breath of the Great Dwarf to the old LoD specs (40..75 healing on a 5 second recharge)

Div · Oct 23, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Nice thread. I really like the theory, but I'm strongly inclined to convert that theory into specific numbers and changes to skills.

Let's look at LoD and Heal Party to start. Heal Party has never not been on an Ether Prodigy Runner before Nightfall, and LoD has never not been on an infuser bar after. Ignoring PvE for a second, it's safe to say they need a change in functionality.

Heal Party's cost and cast time make it fairly susceptible to interruption, and had Ether Prodigy on its side for the longest time. Both could be made Earshot range, punishing over-extension and encouraging use of physical self-heals, as it should be. As far as specifics, here are a few solutions in my head. Each point is a different skill change. Some fix certain issues, and the best one would be a matter of perception and opinion. Tell me what you think:

LoD
- Increase energy cost to 10. Returns 1 energy for every ally healed. [puts an amount of energy pressure on the caster if used willy-nilly]
- Caster loses 1 extra energy for every ally healed. [rewards pressure tactics by putting energy pressure on the LoD]
- Heals for 5..35 for each party member under 30%, 50%, and 80% health [lowers overall healing effectiveness on non-pressured teams]
- Skill is disabled for 2 seconds for each party member healed (max. 15..5) [lowers overall healing per second potency, another pressure reward]
-If interrupted, skill is disabled for 15 seconds.

And of course, for diversity, buff the other Party-Heal skills:

Release Enchantments - Increase heal to 20..50 (maximum 80).
Mystic Healing - People on the team below 50% health are healed first. Add 1 person healed. Increase casting time to 2.
"Restoration" Chants - Lower recharge times, but add "instances of this chant on each party member are disabled for 20 seconds". (This is a change plenty of people have wanted to see for some time, opening the way for paragons to be buffed.)

Aside: For PvE, Anet could buff Breath of the Great Dwarf to the old LoD specs (40..75 healing on a 5 second recharge)

The problem isn't necessarily just LoD. Buffing the other options are not going to create diversity until it gets to the point where it's OP. The problem is the weak ability to reduce damage, and the ever-increasing power creep since NF. There is simply too much damage in too little time over too many characters to prot up reasonably, and a party wide heal is needed to clean up that damage. Back then, heal party was enough every time the runner got close, and it was in a way more interesting because a pressured team would have to sacrifice their flagrunner HPing to keep them up.

On a side note, I don't understand the nerf to SoD. Sure, it may be a very powerful prot before, but it's one of those skills that require skill to use. Nerfing it to the point where rarely anyone uses it just destroys one of the few good skills in the game. Plus, it's one of the few things that's able to stand up to the insane pressure of today. RC is too much of a red-bar skill to consider something that takes skill to use, and that's what we're seeing now. It'd be nice to see a more balanced mix of RC and SoD, maybe by putting recharge to 7 and reducing duration to about where it was before.

DIH49 · Oct 23, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Tell me what you think:

If you nerf LoD, I start running two LoDs. If you nerf it again, I'll run 3 or make myself an Eprod guy who will do nothing but sit 3 aggro bubbles backline for the whole match. LoD is not the problem, having only LoD is.

Bio-Flame · Oct 23, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

The nerf to SoD was stupid.

LoD, Wards, Aegis, DA, they ALL require mindless spam.
SoD did not. SoD required good skill and it rewarded good players.

Obviously, Izzy had to nerf it.

pah01 · Oct 23, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I am sorry but I disagree with the idea of mindlessly spamming Lod. If you do this you will get it dshoted and diversioned. So you do have to be careful about not mindlessly spamming LOD.

Otherwise I agree with your sentiment that Izzy nerfed the active skill because he is a carebear.

Joe

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

SoD needed a nerf, at 5r it was way too spammable, though 10r might be overnerfed I think 7-8r with the old duration would be fine.

Though I gotta say, I don't mind it being gone for the moment, at least stuff dies now.

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

With Aegis, DA, ward, and Sod there are 4 layers of block to get through. 2 layers is hard enough to get through. I'm glad SoD is gone but not entirely. I can live with 2 layers of block in the meta. Right now the 4 layers still works but cannot be maintained all the time and is weaker to interruption and diversion. When one of those layers gets taken down you can see the effect immediately.

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

With Aegis, DA, ward, and Sod there are 4 layers of block to get through. 2 layers is hard enough to get through. I'm glad SoD is gone but not entirely. I can live with 2 layers of block in the meta. Right now the 4 layers still works but cannot be maintained all the time and is weaker to interruption and diversion. When one of those layers gets taken down you can see the effect immediately.

Out of these 4, there's 3 passive and 1 active.

That is what people are bitching about. If you want to nerf passive and promote active defense, you should do it consistently.