Curse

Byron · Oct 15, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

This seems less like a suggestion thread and more like a eulogy.

Akaraxle · Oct 15, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

This seems less like a suggestion thread and more like a eulogy.

The OP is tired of posting suggestions and being (almost) completely ignored, so I'd guess this is a state of the game wrap-up thread.

Yichi · Oct 15, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinful Doom

This game has all the tools needed to be a great PvP game. Let’s face the facts though, PvP is fading from Anet's memory. Why else would we have the broken skills and broken mechanics at present. This is probably a real indicator of what PvP will be like in GW2 as sad as it maybe.

This is a common belief among the PvP community, but goes against another even more common belief in the community. That is that this game HAD the potential to become an incredible PvP platform. I truly believe that this game no longer has the potential it once used too and I know that others I have talked too do share my opinion and I'll explain why:

Guildwars PvP used to be multi-dimensional to the point where it took far more skill to achieve success than it has now. This isn't just broken down into a stale metagame or a lack of skill balances, but in general an ignorance as a whole.

In the early days of PvP, there were many more viable builds, tactics, and playstyles that came into effect than the current meta. It isn't due to lack of skills to choose from or lack of builds to run, it is due to lack of options to be able to run. LoD is a prime example of that. This has become now the only truly viable party-wide heal being run in 99.9% of every build. Not because its truly overpowered or because it is that amazing, but because you have no other viable alternative to do what LoD does. With the introduction to skills like this that give you no other viable alternative, it forced a huge reduction in some types of game play. Degen or aoe can easily be soaked up by LoD and have the effect it does be virtually non-existant. Take the recent buff to Energy Surge for example. The damage it does is mediocre at best even with the recent buff and can almost easily be negated by LoD, leaving this a virtual non viable AoE energy denial with a minor damage output. The fact that having to rely on taking out a skill like LoD through dshot or humility or diversion pushes to attest to this fact. In most cases when LoD goes down, you explode due to the fact that the game is now lets run a bunch of prot and LoD. Players and builds are forced to run these bars due to the lack of alternatives to run. As has been pointed out before, there is no real way of making red bars go up as efficiently as LoD will do. Ward Melee was another example. Ward melee wasn't as much of a problem as people had made it out to be. It was the fact that now you could carry this on another character and not be forced to run a Bsurge bitch ele just to carry a ward at the main stand due to the MoR allowing this to be used effectively at very little spec into it. Now you have another option gone to where if you are wanting to run a ward in your build, you're forced to dedicate a single character to a single skill bar to use this. Mending touch was another one of these skills. The skill is very effective at what it does and does it very well. But with the introduction of said skill, you have now completely forced certain bars to be run. The SoR water runner is a perfect example. The old air runners or any character sent back to defend a split that relied on using conditions to out pressure the opposing teams split such as a cripshot or a BA ranger, were almost eliminated. If you did have 2 BA rangers, one attacking and one defending the base, it became a game of lets see who can dshot the others troll through natty stride first. With the lack of utility in being able to provide conditions upon a split to effectively hold off an attack, it forced skills like SoR or WoR to be ran on any defending character, thus limiting your options in build selection. These are a few examples to show that the alternatives to what we have are virtually non existant and making this game more and more one dimensional.

Builds are another example. The number of previously viable builds and templates that were once used have almost all but virtually disappeared into the few viable builds we have now. Granted you still have guilds that do create their own builds now, but those guilds are very few and far between. The types of builds being run now have dwindeled as well. A good example of this used to be caster spike, whether it be all one class like say the old fc air spike, or a mixed, rainbow style caster spike, these have all but disappeared from play altogether. The game used to have a much more variety of build that could successfully be run compared to its current state. Again this is due to lack of options of the available tools that we have.

Than there are certain characters introduced to this game that have allowed this to degenerate even further. While you have more options of characters to play and run into a build, the skill bars and effects of said characters are reason alone as to why certain characters are brought over anything else. Most guilds (not saying all guilds, but a good majority of them) now a days that run a dedicated split will almost always have an assassin or two in them. Not because they are that spectacular of a character, but because of how easily they made taking out single, non protted targets through the dagger combos. For what they do, an assassin can produce a quick, mass amount of damage and conditions in a very short succession and have the ability to shadowstep out of danger. This took almost every and all skill that used to be involved in splitting in this game out of it. Now I know that the community, had asked for character development when comming out with new professions to play, but honestly thinking that such a profession would progress gameplay was completely off, thus continuing the path to becomming more one-dimensional. The DA blockagons are another example of this. Partywide buffs with a mass dps due to the few spear skills and shouts used, almost unlimited energy engine, and a huge armor benefit basically just screams "Hi, abuse me" and many teams have. There was a time where the warrior was the hardest class to be able to out dps the ability to heal in terms of being targeted. The paragon changed all that because it became an almost un-killable target, forcing you to have to evolve a build around a way of getting through the party wide defense these guys could pump out.

Game mechanics have also shifted the game in a way that not many people are very fond of. Certain elements of the game no longer require the attention to detail they once used too. As well as certain elements of the game, dictate your build and playstyle before you even go in. With the even shorter VoD time of 18 minutes, you have seen a huge increase of "Lets play hyper-defensively until VoD when we can use our NPC's and the damage boost to make up for our lack of adequacy." Thus with this mentality and gameplay being thrust into the meta, the number of viable tactics and strategies have gone down as well. Not because there isn't players that can effectively run those strategies, but there is a lack of time to effectively pull them off to accomplish your goal.

These are all common knowledge among the PvP community and have been expressed over and over again with the same result. We get a half assed attempt at addressing the problem while the fundamental design behind the reasoning of the problem is left alone. Its not that ANET or Izzy are stupid, it stems from the fact that they do not understand the position that they themselves have put the game in, nor will they let it be fixed. The only ray of light that we can hope for is that the events, comments, and knowledge gained through this game and the player forums that give advice from knowledgeable posters pointing out the flaws in the current design, is that it can be repaired and fixed for the next version of the game they are currently producing.

Sinful Doom · Oct 15, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

The only perfect scenario for the PvP community would be this.

1. Guild Wars 2 comes out tomorrow.
2. The entire PvE community from GW1 goes to GW2.
3. GW1 becomes dedicated to PvP.
4. Proper skill balance is implemented.
5. EvIL, War Machine and the multitude of former PvP players return to the game.
6. Competition rises again in GW1.
7. The true potential of PvP in this game can be realized.

Did I miss anything?

pah01 · Oct 15, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Th thing that pisses me off is that GW2 is probably going to be a shitty version of wow and its pvp will be absolute tripe

Alex the Great · Oct 15, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

paradigm.

he said paradigm

casters arn't that terrible, infact in pvp i seriously like the offensive capeabilites of multiple builds, but all of them also are flexable with utility skills. There is a tradeoff, and the addition of the paragon ruined this, as you can keep up physical dammage and massive utility. you gotta fix it by nerfing shouts and buffing spear skills so paras can still be played (unlike the previous paragon diaspora)

Longasc · Oct 15, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

It is too late.

It is doubtful if there will be another skill update that touches *fundamental* aspects of the current balance. You know, "all the devs are working on GW2". They will not do that.

But there is hope for GW2 to shift away from physical attackers to deal damage and interrupt stuff. As I like to play a Necro I especially like the idea of "front-loaded" hexes e.g..

This said, I hope most people recognize the signs given by GW:EN. GW2 seems to become a much more classical MMORPG like game with a lot more grind content, despite them saying otherwise.
Maybe they will continue to balance almost exclusively based on PvP, but I am not sure if there will be many traditional game modes like GW1 GvG or HA, in favor of more casual formats of AB style, which I suspect the War of the Worlds in the Mists or whatever it is called to be.

Neo-LD · Oct 15, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Well, one contributing factor to the staleness of the game that isnt being given its due credit is that the game is understood far better now, by more people, than at any point previously. The talent level in terms of execution is lower, but the average level of understanding whats good and whats bad is much higher. This came about through bad players quitting, the players that remain improving by practicing, and observer mode.

Anyways, with a higher level of understanding, more and more tactics and builds that would have contributed to flavor and variety are rendered unviable as critical weaknesses and limitations are discovered in these strategies. Thus, we arrive at our current point, where there are only a select few strategies that actually work. Everything else is just inferior, unplayable.

However, the success of a competitive game is not only measured by the number of viable strategies. The traditional balancing view is that anything more than a "reasonable number" of viable strategies is superfluous. Recently it has been suggested that Anet would do better to stop trying to balance R/P/S, and instead just pick a Rock and focus on making Rock vs Rock fun.

I support this. How many players here actually look forward to playing anymore? With so much emphasis on spam, overload, RPS and such things, I doubt many do. On the other hand, how many people would love to play in certain matches with a few arbitrary rules? How about:

- No Dervishes, Assasins, or Paragons. No builds that obviously try to recreate a Derv/Sin/Gon build using it as a secondary. No spirits. No Shields Up. No Keystone Signet. Oh, and no LoD. Tough Cookies.

A recipe for a fast and fun bloodbath. The team that kills quicker is better and wins. The blanket bans may exclude some outlying builds that didnt deserve it, but oh well, its for the good of the game. If only Anet had the guts to balance with such decisiveness and passion. =/

Shuuda · Oct 15, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

- No Dervishes, Assasins, or Paragons. No builds that obviously try to recreate a Derv/Sin/Gon build using it as a secondary. No spirits. No Shields Up. No Keystone Signet. Oh, and no LoD. Tough Cookies.

If you must rag on Assassins and Devs, atleast rag on Rts as well, seeing as how they are potenially the most borken porffession in the game. Man, it seems that everyone wants wther one of two things around here.

-Blind loyality to assassin.
-delete assassins

Jeez, am I the only person here who wants them fixed? And the same goes for dervishes as well.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

However, the success of a competitive game is not only measured by the number of viable strategies. The traditional balancing view is that anything more than a "reasonable number" of viable strategies is superfluous. Recently it has been suggested that Anet would do better to stop trying to balance R/P/S, and instead just pick a Rock and focus on making Rock vs Rock fun.

i would not be a person to encourage such a thing. Because that is exactly what was/is wrong with blockway. Blockway was a reaction to the ever increasing dominance of the physical side of GW (3 out of 4 new classes are physical dmg based classes). But this seems rather contrary to the large variety of skills and classes that are available, if it really is only viable to use a very narrow portion of these options in PvP then why do they bother to add them?

a game which pits rock vs rock... is chess. Both teams have exactly the same tools available to them, you know exactly what your opponent has. The only variable is the player behind the pieces. The game achieves perfect balance by controlling the variables in this way.

GW is clearly not like this. With 8 slots to fill in a team and 10 classes to choose from... not to mention the ability to choose secondary classes. The variation in classes in a 8 man build already presents us with quite a large amount of variation that we cannot easily predict.

In addition, each class has dozens of skills, and each of the 8 players has 8 skill slots to fill.

i think there have been posts attempting to work out the actual number of possibilities.... i havent a clue what it is, but its probably in the millions or billions.

what i am trying to say is this.

its obvious that balance in games like chess is quite possible to achieve. Some say that chess is perfectly balanced... like rock paper scissors is. The determining factor in the matches of these types of games rests purely on the ability/choices/strategies of the players.

but then are we saying that a game in which there is so much variation, variation that is not predictable by the player, is impossible to balance?

is the fact that GW gives us so many choices, alternatives, the source of its downfall/imbalances or is it the fact that the choices and alternatives just arent balanced well enough?

i think its the latter. i think the more options and alternatives you create, the harder it is to balance, but as long as existing options are balanced before further options are added balance should be manageable. The fundamental problem with GW balance history is that new options were added regardless of the whether its existing options were balanced or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

On the other hand, how many people would love to play in certain matches with a few arbitrary rules?

sealed deck is great because you know your opponent is restricted to as equally chaotic set of skills as you are, which puts far more emphasis on the execution of poor skill bars rather than the average execution of great skill bars. You really do get to see talent shine in these matches and they are great fun when you see weird skill combos being executed...

but it was said a long time ago that sealed deck would require far too much effort to code into GW.

lacasner · Oct 15, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

This game would not work with sealed "skill decks" or restrictions on builds that can be run..precisely because in no way can this be compared in any way to chess.

It requires so much less skill and tactics it is not even comparable at all. This game needs variety to thrive, and it doesn't have any, so that's why its stagnant and just another log in the river floating along.

Less updates and fixes there are, with the lacking of "grind-content" this game has that actually has a tangible reward, = not a fun game.

erk · Oct 15, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Izzy isn't as bad as you all make him sound. I admit his wiki posts make him sound pretty dumb, but in person you can tell he is a lot more knowledgeable than the average GWP member, or the average guru poster.

He just isn't as knowledgeable as Ensign, and let's leave it at that. No need to rip him apart. Let's just help him see why Ensign is right.

Izzy guested for us in GvG couple of weekends ago, when he was bored on his Paris trip, and he played fine. Ran a Me/Rt and he certainly knew how to GvG. I come across him in arenas every now and then, so he is active in PvP. Most of the Dev team, judging from their Wiki's, seem older than the average GW player, so their methods and goals are probably different too.

Lorekeeper · Oct 15, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

This game would not work with sealed "skill decks" or restrictions on builds that can be run..precisely because in no way can this be compared in any way to chess.

It requires so much less skill and tactics it is not even comparable at all. This game needs variety to thrive, and it doesn't have any, so that's why its stagnant and just another log in the river floating along.

Less updates and fixes there are, with the lacking of "grind-content" this game has that actually has a tangible reward, = not a fun game.

1) sealed deck is fun. Trust me. Im sure many others will support me on this. Funnily enough, GW actually lends itself to this type of format. In the regular play of GW PvP we are under so much pressure to chose the right skills and synergies that work, in sealed deck things are so much more relaxed, expectations are removed, blood pressure lowers and immense fun can be had. You dont have to take part if you dont want to, but dont say it wont work when it already has.

2) GW can be compared to Chess, not by drawing much similiarities between them but by highlighting the differences. The act of comparing two things does not hinge on the two things under comparison being the same. Its called compare and contrast for a reason.

3) You can become a millionaire by being a chess grandmaster... how much money do GW players make? Sorry i cant buy a house with ectos and i cannot feed Africa by farming in FoW. Your assertion that chess requires much less skill and tactics is an assertion borne out of sheer ignorance. Chess is one of the most skillbased and tactical games ever made by man. Guild Wars pales in comparison because of the multitude of balance issues it has. No professional competitive gamer or professional league would take it seriously, which is one reason why hardly any Japanese or Korean people play the game, because if they do commit themselves to a competitive game its probably in the aim of making money from it.

4) This game doesnt have variety? It needs variety to thrive? If you are talking about GW... well i think the amount of sales its made kinda refutes your position. There is a bucket load of variety. If you are talking about GW PvP its not the variety thats lacking its the unequal balance within the variety that is responsible for stagnation. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant the latter, because GW has a bucket load of variety at its fingertips. Ironically, the unmanaged nature of its increasing variety is probably its downfall.

lacasner · Oct 15, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

1) sealed deck is fun. Trust me. Im sure many others will support me on this. Funnily enough, GW actually lends itself to this type of format. In the regular play of GW PvP we are under so much pressure to chose the right skills and synergies that work, in sealed deck things are so much more relaxed, expectations are removed, blood pressure lowers and immense fun can be had. You dont have to take part if you dont want to, but dont say it wont work when it already has.

2) GW can be compared to Chess, not by drawing much similiarities between them but by highlighting the differences. The act of comparing two things does not hinge on the two things under comparison being the same. Its called compare and contrast for a reason.

3) You can become a millionaire by being a chess grandmaster... how much money do GW players make? Sorry i cant buy a house with ectos and i cannot feed Africa by farming in FoW. Your assertion that chess requires much less skill and tactics is an assertion borne out of sheer ignorance. Chess is one of the most skillbased and tactical games ever made by man. Guild Wars pales in comparison because of the multitude of balance issues it has. No professional competitive gamer or professional league would take it seriously, which is one reason why hardly any Japanese or Korean people play the game, because if they do commit themselves to a competitive game its probably in the aim of making money from it.

4) This game doesnt have variety? It needs variety to thrive? If you are talking about GW... well i think the amount of sales its made kinda refutes your position. There is a bucket load of variety. If you are talking about GW PvP its not the variety thats lacking its the unequal balance within the variety that is responsible for stagnation. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant the latter, because GW has a bucket load of variety at its fingertips. Ironically, the unmanaged nature of its increasing variety is probably its downfall.

1) No need to be aggressive really..I just stated from my experiences in this game that the time I had the most fun was when a wide variety of "viable" builds were available, and quite frankly there aren't alot now.

2) Yes, through literal terms contrasting is a type of comparing, but this is somewhat splitting a hair in two parts. As a 1800 (approximately) rated chess player roughly a year ago, I would have more experience in it, just as perhaps you may be may be in GvG or in monthly championships.

3)Hmm..perhaps my answer was a bit ambiguous..I met tangible rewards in the game, such as items and such and actually profiting from PvP. A good example of this would be Pking of some sort, which other games have.

4) Sales as an arguement to prove popularity fails in my opinion..active player lists matter much more to me, which you did not seem to address in your point. And again, I don't quite see why you find literalistic comments to be relevant to the point we are trying to make here.

When I was referring to variety, I was talking about viable and applicable options, which show actually there is very little variety in builds(i.e.observer mode if we really need to have proof, but its rather apparant).

-Lac

Legendary Shiz · Oct 15, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Izzy guested for us in GvG couple of weekends ago, when he was bored on his Paris trip, and he played fine. Ran a Me/Rt and he certainly knew how to GvG. I come across him in arenas every now and then, so he is active in PvP. Most of the Dev team, judging from their Wiki's, seem older than the average GW player, so their methods and goals are probably different too.

Being well versed in common GvG tactics, and 'seeing' somebody in RA doesn't qualify them as a knowledgeable player.

Ensign · Oct 15, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

This game would not work with sealed "skill decks" or restrictions on builds that can be run..precisely because in no way can this be compared in any way to chess.

The only thing that really keeps GW from being an effective 'sealed' game is that the skillset is not designed for it at all. If you look at M:tG, you'll notice that that majority of the cards a player gets in a sealed or draft game are simple, straight-forward effects that form the backbone of a deck. In Guild Wars, very few skills have backbone, straight-forward effects. Most skills have obscure effects, and many classes depend on combinations to function at all. If Guild Wars was designed with robust classes and skills, it could make a phenomenal sealed game. Perhaps that's something they'll think about for Guild Wars 2.

Lorekeeper · Oct 16, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

When I was referring to variety, I was talking about viable and applicable options, which show actually there is very little variety in builds(i.e.observer mode if we really need to have proof, but its rather apparant).

-Lac

well in that case we are agreed, you just didnt make it so clear the first time around. Thank you for clearing it up.

Falconer · Oct 16, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

On that note Ensign.. I've sometimes considered how well Guild Wars could work as a 'point-buy' system instead (ala Mage Knight, DnD minis...). I've never really voiced that thought, because it was pretty clear that the devs were stuck on the MtG model from the beginning though. Even at that, they provided no mechanism for generalized sealed play in game outside of convention type events which have very limited player availability.

Then you wouldn't necessarily need to tweak skills so much as give an additional element where you could adjust the base cost of the skill in the first place. (5-25 point skills, an elite being a 10 point cost reduction over a similar non-elite). A very strong skill such as gale in it's old format then necessarily wouldn't need nerfed so much as an appropriate skill cost. Your build could be based around a lot of expensive skills... or a lot of not quite so stellar but functional other skills (harder to shut down w/ diversion for example). As well as point distrubution w/in the build... a 100 point monk, but only a 50 point warrior...

Raises interesting questions of the merits of a 500 point GvG buy for example.

dancing gnome · Oct 16, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Not a big understander (I know it's not a word) of GvG mechanics but I think the reason why a lot of split team skills are nerfed is because they seem imba in the context of TA and RA. A split team would function a lot like TA in my mind, but deal with less pressure, so the builds they use would need to be more independent than an all out war. You can't balance one without hurting the other, and then you have PvE to consider :P.

Master Ketsu · Oct 16, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

No, actually, you didn't. You didn't address that at all. What you did do is manage to whittle the block vs. melee metagame down into an even simpler package of must-run skills and templates with even less room for variation.

I will spell this out so that I am abundantly clear.

Melee and physical damage dealers are the *only* available way to kill anyone with any consistency on a competitive level. There is *no* alternative. This is not a matter of a couple of skills being that much better than everything else, it is a consistent theme that physical damage dealers are on a tier unto themselves when it comes to dealing damage. The game has almost always been this way.

Pervasive, party-wide, distributed damage prevention is the only way to survive several physical attackers. Localized prot effects are less effective as more physicals are put into a build, and countermeasures to those defenses have been and continue to be buffed; active shutdown of those physicals continues to be nerfed, despite huge additions of anti-shutdown tools in Nightfall. Party-wide defense, particularly party-wide block, is one of the worst mechanics in the game - it's also the only viable one left.

The changes made did *nothing* to address these problems. The changes made actually reinforce these problems further, and only served to remove variety by compressing the viable party defense into fewer skills and templates. The way out of this metagame is to add alternatives. You don't add alternatives - you *remove* them.

To sum it up for anet: You've screwed up the counter for the metagame when it comes to physical damage. You've nerfed necro hexes in the wrong way ( You need to lower energy costs as well if your going to lower their duration and recharge ! ) Blind and cripple have been nerfed by the counters to it ( condition counters are much easier then before. You have admitted this yourself ) Mesmers have basically been nerfed by neglect . Illusion line needs buffs pl0x ... Ones that actually make mesmers viable against a melee'r who has a monk behind them. I look at the illusion line and what I see is a line built with the assumption that you 1v1'ing the warrior or something. skills like clumsiness and ineptitude need to be more about reliable shutdown and less about damage.

With counters to melee being poor now, Youve got the state of the game locked in whats called a "metagame freeze" Were builds dont cycle like they are supposed to in a healthy meta and cookie cutters run rampant because of it.