Curse

Narcin · Oct 21, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

ok, now lets count the number of mistakes in your post.

1. Iway warriors don't use hammer, they use axe.
2. Which means they also use a shield.
3. Iway warriors don't have any knockdowns, so they don't use stonefist insignia.
4. Iway warriors don't use knight's insignia (who the hell does)
5. Iway warriors do not use clarity rune because they don't know what it is.
6. You didn't bring 12 DAMAGE REDUCTION into your equation.
7. You didn't bring WARRIOR ARMOR + SHIELD + 20 FROM DEFY PAIN into your equation (I loled at 130 damage per ranger)
And even if we assume that you didn't notice we are talking about IWAY wars-
8. Deep wound can't reduce more than 100 health.

I'm sorry for the few mistakes i made in my post but I was typing this up 15 minutes before i had to get to work....

1. I'm sorry i don't know the CURRENT iway, but if you knew anything about HA and its past, there was more than one type of iway including builds that used hammer warriors. Please learn history.
2. Ok thats an extra THIRTY HEALTH to factor....
3. My mistake i was unaware they took that effect away from bull's strike....
4. Simple mistype because i was rushed meant to be sentinel
5. I'm sure all the pro r7,8,9+ iwayers dont know simple runage on a warrior...
6. I picked these numbers not out of my ass but out of experience.
7. Again experience talking, not OMG I ONLY PLAY MONK CUZ I CANT D-SHOT
8. Still a factor of being rushed. Please, dont assume..... like the saying goes, "dont assume, you only make an ass out of you and me"

Please if you're just going to shit through your fingers, dont type on guru. Go and test an iway warrior up against a glass/brutal ranger.. you'll notice an average damage output between 120 and 180 damage

Edwards · Oct 22, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

OK, so I did some calculations.

A Defy Pain warrior has:

80 base armor
+20 vs physical
+16 with a shield
+10 with a piercing mod on the shield
+20 from Defy Pain

Making a grand total of 146 armor.

Now, from my experience, a typical rspiker wields a 15^50 customized Vampiric Hornbow to spike with, and use 15 Marksmanship. Assuming you get cracked armor on the spike, you're using that bow to spike a 126 armor target.

According to the damage calculator I used, that means that each arrow will strike for an average of 20.4 damage.

Now, what makes rspike powerful is the bonuses that are added to the damage dealt by the arrows. This is all bonus damage, and therefore is armor ignoring.

Glass Arrows @ 14 Expertise deals an additional +19 damage per arrow.
Favourable Winds deals an additional +6 damage per arrow
Brutal Weapon @ 14 Communing deals an additional +15 damage per arrow.

Meaning that each spiker deals on average:

3(20.4 + 19 + +6 +15)

=181.2 damage.

Multiply that by three for three spikers.

3 * 181.2 = 543.6

Add 100 armor ignoring damage for Deep Wound

543.6 + 100 = 643.6

Just to be thorough, you could add the damage dealt by the spear that the paragon threw to use Chest Thumper, but it'll be negated completely by Defy Pain anyways, so it's not really worth it.

Now, remember that each IWAY warrior has -9 damage reduction (@14 Strength) on each hit, multiplied by nine packets of damage.

9 * 9 = 81

So all that's left is to take the original 643.6 damage and factor in the 81 damage reduction.

643.6 - 81 = 562.6

So, an rspike will deal 563 damage on average with each spike, not factoring in "Go For The Eyes" or Anthem of Envy. You can compare that to your own health figures for Defy Pain warriors.

Narcin · Oct 22, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

very right edwards, and against a warrior, a typical ranger spike will use an elemental bow, it deals more damage unless you hit an armor peice with a sentinel insignea. And remember, those numbers arent completely and 100% solid. Chest is hit 3/8 legs 2/8 and arms feet and head 1/8 times. Head shots result in critical hits. Height increases this chance and hitting a target that has its back to you is a garunteed critical hit.

shoogi · Oct 22, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Ok you're right, but it doesn't make much difference. As long as your spike is never enough to kill them or even close to it, there is no point to spike, but focus fire and use skills upon recharge. If their necro is dumb enough to get into your range then yes, you spike him. If a warrior gets down to 50% you might want to consider spiking him off, though I personally don't see the point.

Oh and Narcin, you're right, I only play monk because playing a ranger on rspike is too tough for me, I find monking much easier you know. Hitting numbers on keyboard when some dude on vent tells me to is beyond my capabilities, monk is enormously more simple, isn't it?
And who told you that stonefist doesn't affect bull's lol (iways also don't use bull's btw)

And I apologize if I was too offensive in my previous post.

Narcin · Oct 22, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Shoogi the difficulty in ranger spike is being able to interupt, not spike.... and you missunderstood my bull's strike point because it seems english is not your first language. but either way, if you were a good monk, you would chose a target to deny adrenaline so that his defy pain COULDN'T be maintained and just have the caller spike it out on the downtime. Obviously you aren't a good enough monk to know that adrenaline denile is simple with 1 warding and 1 guardian.

Skyros · Oct 23, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

shoogi,

-the rangerspike pushes in for the the necro... you dont just let him pump OoV's and party heals...

-IWAY bars have changed to basically have any number of warrior combinations (hammer, sword, axe) with IWAY skill adn pet and res. They carry Bulls.

Zabe · Oct 23, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcin

Shoogi the difficulty in ranger spike is being able to interupt, not spike.... and you missunderstood my bull's strike point because it seems english is not your first language. but either way, if you were a good monk, you would chose a target to deny adrenaline so that his defy pain COULDN'T be maintained and just have the caller spike it out on the downtime. Obviously you aren't a good enough monk to know that adrenaline denile is simple with 1 warding and 1 guardian.

You are mixing up some concepts here. Adrenaline denial is done by few hexes and enchantments (Ancestors visage etc. etc. etc.) You can slow down adrenaline gaining with blocking, but you cant stop it, they will always find a target that is unprotted, or hit through your prot few times. On top of that, its not very hard to maintain Defy Pain. It has 5 Adrenaline cost and will be recharged in 5 successfull hits. So you have to hit once in every 4 seconds to maintain it and thats not hard.

Then again, wtf is your point about "being able to interrupt". Good rspike that spikes every 5 seconds, doesnt need to interrupt. Ofcourse you can and will dshot (if you have one) hard rezz/sigs, but best way is just to spike them down. This is against normal teams ofcourse, as pointed out already, you are most likely unable to spike the warriors down straight and simple, depending the variation you will have different tactics, which are to spike the softies and drill the warriors down if they have no heals anymore.

shoogi · Oct 23, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcin

Shoogi the difficulty in ranger spike is being able to interupt, not spike.... and you missunderstood my bull's strike point because it seems english is not your first language. but either way, if you were a good monk, you would chose a target to deny adrenaline so that his defy pain COULDN'T be maintained and just have the caller spike it out on the downtime. Obviously you aren't a good enough monk to know that adrenaline denile is simple with 1 warding and 1 guardian.

Epic post. Say something which is totally wrong and back it up by flaming me. I vote post of the year.

You seem to like calculations so-

Axe swings every 1.33 seconds (faster if they are under IWAY ias)
Guardian = 50% block.
Axe hits 1/2 of attacks= once in 2.66 seconds.
Defy pain needs 5 Adrenaline.
2.66 x 5 = 13.3
Defy Pain lasts 20 seconds.
20 > 13.3
So, even if they are swinging against a Guardian'ed target, They will be able to maintain Defy Pain with ease. And if they can't switch targets when they are hitting a target with WoW + guardain, or a target that constantly kites, then lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

-the rangerspike pushes in for the the necro... you dont just let him pump OoV's and party heals...

-IWAY bars have changed to basically have any number of warrior combinations (hammer, sword, axe) with IWAY skill adn pet and res. They carry Bulls.

-It's an option, I don't see the need for that. If they can't get to your monks who have at least +10 from channeling you shouldn't be under any pressure.
As I said 3 monks should have no problem to hold anyway, but IWAY uses luck dchops that can potentially screw you up. (waiting for Narcin to say that I am a bad monk that can't hold against iway and gets everything dchopped)

-The common version of IWAY nowadays uses axes with no bull's.

Skyros · Oct 23, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

Then again, wtf is your point about "being able to interrupt". Good rspike that spikes every 5 seconds, doesnt need to interrupt. Ofcourse you can and will dshot (if you have one) hard rezz/sigs, but best way is just to spike them down. This is against normal teams ofcourse, as pointed out already, you are most likely unable to spike the warriors down straight and simple, depending the variation you will have different tactics, which are to spike the softies and drill the warriors down if they have no heals anymore.

no zabe... you dun just interupt hard reses... you are interupting AoE, WoW, HPs, Hexes (diversion, Shame SS, deprav, etc. etc etc.), list goes on. if you arent doing this IN BETWEEN spiking just about every 5 secs... you arent doing your job.

shoogi-

no... if your team is brave you will push and spike that mofo out cause the smart team will realize after the necro goes down (with reses shutdown) the iway has no heals and will go down.

and yes they do use bulls strike. i hope you know that the IWAY build with 7 W/Rs and a necro uses any kind of warrior build +IWAY skill + pet + res... its not just axes.

Phe Belladona · Oct 23, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

ok dis shot WoW when wanting to kill a ghost and hexes in a hex build, if you can be bothered diversion.. oh and DA but theres no skill in getting these. its not like you can bluff the ranger is an active shutdown character between spikes

and dis shotting HP.. seriously? ok HB monks will cast it while you spike to buffer it sometimes but then you'll be spiking at the time so wont dis shot it. why are you interupting AoE? you have 100 armour vs it.. tank it wimp.

saying there is skill in rspike rangers dis shotting ONLY applies when you're relic running vs 2 snarers, but then its mainly their fault for not getting foes up while you recharge. and before you start up i've played on some of the best rspikes that were in halls at the time, i know what goes into them.

but i dont care cause when i do play HA i do PD 4 characters primary skills so have np with rspikes

gl with fame gathering but dont pretend it requires skill outside a focused caller.

Narcin · Oct 23, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

You are mixing up some concepts here. Adrenaline denial is done by few hexes and enchantments (Ancestors visage etc. etc. etc.) You can slow down adrenaline gaining with blocking, but you cant stop it, they will always find a target that is unprotted, or hit through your prot few times. On top of that, its not very hard to maintain Defy Pain. It has 5 Adrenaline cost and will be recharged in 5 successfull hits. So you have to hit once in every 4 seconds to maintain it and thats not hard.

Adrenaline denile is any way of slowing a warrior down from building adrenaline, whether blocking or kiting or blind or hexes and whatnot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoogi

Epic post. Say something which is totally wrong and back it up by flaming me. I vote post of the year.

You seem to like calculations so-

Axe swings every 1.33 seconds (faster if they are under IWAY ias)
Guardian = 50% block.
Axe hits 1/2 of attacks= once in 2.66 seconds.
Defy pain needs 5 Adrenaline.
2.66 x 5 = 13.3
Defy Pain lasts 20 seconds.
20 > 13.3
So, even if they are swinging against a Guardian'ed target, They will be able to maintain Defy Pain with ease. And if they can't switch targets when they are hitting a target with WoW + guardain, or a target that constantly kites, then lol

If you dont understand what active snaring and kiting and make haste do then you obviously think this. But if you have ANY sort of coordination, you can chain guardin and WoW on each new target of a warrior. Between kiting, snares and blocking, you can deny a warrior of adrenaline long enough to keep his defy pain down. Also using an adrenaline skill drop the count by one so that's only correct if he doesnt use any adrenaline skills in between.

Remember i talk with experience from all these points. Prot, snare, ranger, WoWer, and make haster.

Narcin · Oct 23, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

ok dis shot WoW when wanting to kill a ghost and hexes in a hex build, if you can be bothered diversion.. oh and DA but theres no skill in getting these. its not like you can bluff the ranger is an active shutdown character between spikes

and dis shotting HP.. seriously? ok HB monks will cast it while you spike to buffer it sometimes but then you'll be spiking at the time so wont dis shot it. why are you interupting AoE? you have 100 armour vs it.. tank it wimp.

saying there is skill in rspike rangers dis shotting ONLY applies when you're relic running vs 2 snarers, but then its mainly their fault for not getting foes up while you recharge. and before you start up i've played on some of the best rspikes that were in halls at the time, i know what goes into them.

but i dont care cause when i do play HA i do PD 4 characters primary skills so have np with rspikes

gl with fame gathering but dont pretend it requires skill outside a focused caller.

Is this a joke? During a spike, you shouldnt be using heal party, you should be infusing LOL..... anyway yeah rangers have 100 armor against ele damage, but what about a monk or rit that gets KDed and has 60 armor against ele damage? Is he a wimp? Ranger spike WILL die on an altar cap map if they cant stand on the center alter because heal party or d-kiss got diverted. It's not going to happen. AoE will overwhelm a ghost if a team is good. Yes in UW and fetid it takes little skill, but get past all the easy maps, thats when you need skill.

Phe Belladona · Oct 23, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcin

Is this a joke? During a spike, you shouldnt be using heal party, you should be infusing LOL..... anyway yeah rangers have 100 armor against ele damage, but what about a monk or rit that gets KDed and has 60 armor against ele damage? Is he a wimp? Ranger spike WILL die on an altar cap map if they cant stand on the center alter because heal party or d-kiss got diverted. It's not going to happen. AoE will overwhelm a ghost if a team is good. Yes in UW and fetid it takes little skill, but get past all the easy maps, thats when you need skill.

the HP comment is refering to other rspikes the 3rd monk will HP to time with your spike, as i see no other reason for you to say dis shot HP is important i assumed you meant this. fine cry about AoE but monks should have high probabilities of 95 vs fire and vitals so are really even stronger than the rangers and if you think interupting 2sec casts takes any talent then thats sad.. tho an rspike should just be spiking anything like mesmers and ghosts down on cap points so they dont need to care about AoE (cause without a mesmer then the AoE is a few spells work spread between 3 chars) or losing channeling.

Narcin · Oct 23, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

the HP comment is refering to other rspikes the 3rd monk will HP to time with your spike, as i see no other reason for you to say dis shot HP is important i assumed you meant this. fine cry about AoE but monks should have high probabilities of 95 vs fire and vitals so are really even stronger than the rangers and if you think interupting 2sec casts takes any talent then thats sad.. tho an rspike should just be spiking anything like mesmers and ghosts down on cap points so they dont need to care about AoE (cause without a mesmer then the AoE is a few spells work spread between 3 chars) or losing channeling.

I never said anything about d-shotting heal party until you brought it up first of all, but anyway you still should. 3 team maps you should, it keeps pressure on a team if they are holding and both teams are doing damage. With fast casting shame drops under 1 second, snares are a second or less, weapon of warding, guardian, the list goes on. It takes skill to get 3/4th casts and yes even a little skill to get the 1 second casts.

Phe Belladona · Oct 23, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

you are interupting AoE, WoW, HPs

... and the only 3/4s you need to get are grasping ... oh wait you have hexbreaker on the runners you can ignore them ^^

Skyros · Oct 24, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

ok dis shot WoW when wanting to kill a ghost and hexes in a hex build, if you can be bothered diversion.. oh and DA but theres no skill in getting these. its not like you can bluff the ranger is an active shutdown character between spikes

and dis shotting HP.. seriously? ok HB monks will cast it while you spike to buffer it sometimes but then you'll be spiking at the time so wont dis shot it. why are you interupting AoE? you have 100 armour vs it.. tank it wimp.

saying there is skill in rspike rangers dis shotting ONLY applies when you're relic running vs 2 snarers, but then its mainly their fault for not getting foes up while you recharge. and before you start up i've played on some of the best rspikes that were in halls at the time, i know what goes into them.

but i dont care cause when i do play HA i do PD 4 characters primary skills so have np with rspikes

gl with fame gathering but dont pretend it requires skill outside a focused caller.

wow

Tank AoE... "why dshot HP"... ok. wow

1) AoE isnt always gonna be dropping on your rangers.. you have a backline to worry about. Tanking AoE is bad regardless of ranger armor + ele damage. you arent invincible and its just damage + monk energy you are wasting as the damage over time builds up as you tank it "being manly".

2) I never said Rspike interrupting takes skill. I know it ridiculously easy. (even the snares... just sit in front of the warder / grasping spammer and press d shot). I said if you arent interrupting, you arent doing your job.

3) NOT ALL RANGER SPIKES HAVE HEXBREAKER/ VITAL?

Kyp Jade · Oct 24, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

wow

Tank AoE... "why dshot HP"... ok. wow

1) AoE isnt always gonna be dropping on your rangers.. you have a backline to worry about. Tanking AoE is bad regardless of ranger armor + ele damage. you arent invincible and its just damage + monk energy you are wasting as the damage over time builds up as you tank it "being manly".

2) I never said Rspike interrupting takes skill. I know it ridiculously easy. (even the snares... just sit in front of the warder / grasping spammer and press d shot). I said if you arent interrupting, you arent doing your job.

3) NOT ALL RANGER SPIKES HAVE HEXBREAKER/ VITAL?

Really shouldnt touch this thread, but
1) 3 monks, they are fine
2) making obvious points to attack something he already said
3) runners have hexbreaker,

stop being bad at theorycrafting

When you have good spikers, thier sole job is to... spike, they interupt stuff when they are bored, or if there is aegis/da. You have 3 monks because you want to both stay alive under heavy pressure (which is the counter to spike builds) AND keep the rangers clean, so they can concentrate on spiking and not interupting.

Spiking rangerspikers kill stuff
Interupting rangerspikers kill stuff slower, which is good or bad depending on situation (in todays meta, mostly bad)

Also, you cant infuse *good* rangerspikes, so since this thread is problems with running rangerspikes, and then the arguments twisted to how everyone is wrong at running rangerspike, its a little ironic that everyone is ignoring what the build was made to do, and focusing more on the builds toolkit.